Rapture

[Jackson123]

And, Paul in defending his teachings of resurrection uses a first century practice of 'baptizing for the dead' which according to him is totally ok because of the underlying belief. Paul asks:

1 Cor 15:29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?

We can easily tell that this group's practice does not stem from the idea that resurrection is miles in the future (21st century and counting), they believed that resurrection was first approaching and in their life time (before they died) and they baptised people in the name of old saints like Abraham/ Jacob/ Isaac/Moses believing that these saints will resurrect and indwell and guide them - more like Catholics, only difference is that Catholics baptize young ones.

And Paul is asking, if there's no resurrection, what will they do? they were just wasting there time if there was no resurrection. Paul is saying, they did not waste their time because resurrection is a fact, not a future fact but a continuous one from some point in the late 1st century.

I am not sure If Paul baptizing the dead. What is the reason baptizing for the dead.

It may, happen, the same people that do not believe in resurection, but they baptizing the death.

Paul may only say those people inconsistance, not believe in resurection but baptizing the death.

 

[Lanolin]

Resurrection.
No, rapture, wait...resurrection. Or was it rapture.

Confused, I am a bit.

 

[glf1]

Lu 10:17-20
And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

2 Th 2:6-8
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

We can see that the wicked one is hindered from being revealed until that which letteth be taken out of the way. We know that the evil one will be revealed by the abomination of desolation to be performed within the holy of holies of the not yet built Jewish temple in Jerusalem at the middle of the great tribulation.

Since the church has power over all the power of the enemy and by the ministry of the Holy Spirit who reproves the world of judgment because the ruler of this world has been judged. The church must be taken out of the way before the evil one can reveal himself in order to perform the abomination of desolation at the middle of the great tribulation.

imo... PTL! : )

 

[glf1]

imo...
I suspect that baptism for the dead was a baptismal service where proxy believers were baptized on behalf of those who died or were martyred before they could be water baptized themselves.

 

[TMS]

Jesus was Baptised and He was perfect. He didn't need to be Baptised but was for our example and for the converted that were not able but wanted to be.
Baptism is the outward sign of being born again, a change of heart. Dead people can't be born again because their probation has already closed.

 

[Noose]

So you say gathering is already happen in old testament, am I correct.

Then why Paul say our gathering Will not happen before a man of sin reveal?

Nope. I don't believe there was any resurrection in the OT, this would make Jesus not to be the first born of resurrection and also Paul said clearly in a letter to Timothy that some were erroneously teaching a past resurrection- my views are that resurrection is a continuous process that started sometime late in the 1st century and continues today. I can easily tell from Paul's teaching about resurrection that it is not a one day event that is to take place in a distant future but something that Paul himself eagerly waited for.

 

[Noose]

imo...
I suspect that baptism for the dead was a baptismal service where proxy believers were baptized on behalf of those who died or were martyred before they could be water baptized themselves.

Paul had no problem with it because the underlying belief was correct, he uses it as an example to teach resurrection and it was not proxies or people being baptized on behalf of the dead ones because the bible doesn't teach such things. It was something close to what Catholics are doing today- they also baptize for he dead only that they are doing it on children who do not know good or bad yet.

 

[Noose]

Jesus was Baptised and He was perfect. He didn't need to be Baptised but was for our example and for the converted that were not able but wanted to be.
Baptism is the outward sign of being born again, a change of heart. Dead people can't be born again because their probation has already closed.

Baptism for the dead is not baptism of the dead.

 

[Noose]

Resurrection.
No, rapture, wait...resurrection. Or was it rapture.

Confused, I am a bit.

But is resurrection the same thing as rapture?!!

 

[Jackson123]

Nope. I don't believe there was any resurrection in the OT, this would make Jesus not to be the first born of resurrection and also Paul said clearly in a letter to Timothy that some were erroneously teaching a past resurrection- my views are that resurrection is a continuous process that started sometime late in the 1st century and continues today. I can easily tell from Paul's teaching about resurrection that it is not a one day event that is to take place in a distant future but something that Paul himself eagerly waited for.

What about Abraham when he resurect?

 

[Noose]

What about Abraham when he resurect?

When Jesus died and resurrected.

 

[Jackson123]

When Jesus died and resurrected.

Lazarus resurect by Jesus, Elisa resurect the death

 

[AuntieAnt]

Pfishing

 

[AuntieAnt]

Six months ago, someone posted this one-word thread in the BDF, which resulted in 24 pages of discourse. The OP’s only further comment was “hi” which pretty much tells us he did it to trigger a response. Yet that didn’t seem to hinder the flow of the debate one bit. Add to that all the other threads about the rapture, and the multitude of pages of various interpretations and yet, still no solid conclusion. Still no agreement. Hmmmm........

 

[glf1]

Water baptism is an act of obedience for the new believer. An outward declaration to the world and to oneself that they've died with Christ to sin and are raised with Christ in the newness of life to follow the Spirit. Water baptism is the outward act of obedience in the natural world; while the inward spiritual baptism was performed by the Holy Spirit when we were all baptized into one body and then indwelt by the Spirit forever.

Heb 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
PTL!

 

[Absolutely]

How do you know rapture before tribulation.

Rapture is happen when Jesus and us gathering together. This verse say It Will not happen before that man of sin reveal,

That mean man of sin first than rapture.

Man of sin is the antichrist, who Will rule in time of tribulation.

So tribulation first than rapture not all the way around.

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, exceptthat man of sin there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The ac will most likely round up believers right away into huge holding facilities. In those facilities we will ne raptured.
So yes,the ac comes first,then the church is raptured right away. We are still raptured pretrib.as well as man of sin revealed

 

[Absolutely]

Rev 19 is future but also now. The harvesting of both good and bad is happening concurrently as per:

Rev 14:
14And I looked and saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was One like the Son of Man,c with a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.

15Then another angel came out of the temple, crying out in a loud voice to the One seated on the cloud, “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” 16So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

17Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18Still another angel, with authority over the fire, came from the altar and called out in a loud voice to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the vine of the earth, because its grapes are ripe.”

19So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

But, God's people are being slaughtered and because they are fewer than the the other kingdom (of this world), they will be finished before the others - when believers have been harvested (basically the first angel with the sharp sickle), that is what is referred to as the sun not giving it's light and the moon becoming bloodied and the stars falling. After this, God pours out the next level of His wrath on the Babylon as described in Rev 19.

But it is more complicated than what i have said here because it is the slaughtered believers that will seek justice from the Lord, they are told to wait until their full number is achieved- we are at that point where believers are being harvested.

Nope, because the innumerable number are those beheaded by ac.
It even says they came out of the great tribulation.

So,early on in the gt the martyrs number is complete because they are no longer confined to under the altar.

 

[Noose]

Nope, because the innumerable number are those beheaded by ac.
It even says they came out of the great tribulation.

So,early on in the gt the martyrs number is complete because they are no longer confined to under the altar.

Correct, except that the great tribulation is now and the faithfuls are being slaughtered right now - it has been since the 1st century and will go on until the end of age basically until their predetermined number is accomplished as per the scriptures.

 

[Jackson123]

The ac will most likely round up believers right away into huge holding facilities. In those facilities we will ne raptured.
So yes,the ac comes first,then the church is raptured right away. We are still raptured pretrib.as well as man of sin revealed

So you believe rapture after antichrist but before tribulation?

 

[Lanolin]

Am going to start one called RESURRECTION. I will just write one word and let people go on for pages and pages about it.

Why doesnt everyone do this? Lol