Rapture

[Absolutely]

When I say nobody will be around I'm referring to the church being raptured. Secondly, let's do this by the numbers and start with Matthew 24 where Jesus is ask the question at vs3, "Tell us, when will these things be, AND WHAT WILL BE THE SIGN OF YOUR COMING, AND THE END OF THE AGE."

I'm not going to quote every verse in Matthew 24 but just highlight some of them. Verses 4-14 is of course already clear signs happening today. Jesus then says at vs15, "Therefore or "for that reason" or "consequently" from what He just said in the previous verses, "when you see the Abomination of Desolation (i.e The antichrist, one person) which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand).

Jesus then goes on to outline (starting at vs16-28) what we will do and what will happen at the hands of the antichrist, i.e tribulation vs21. Then at vs29-31 "But immediately AFTER the tribulation the Son of Man will appear. There is no mention of a rapture or secret rapture BEFORE the GREAT TRIBULATION."

You also have at Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many SHALL APPEAR A SECOND TIME FOR SALVATION OR DELIVERANCE without reference to sin, to those who eargerly await Him." Then you have the Apostle John backing up the writer of Hebrews at Revelation 20 where the time frame is the tribulation and at vs5, "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. The rest of Revelation 20 deals with the thousand year reign and what will happen. There is no mention according to the time frame of a "rapture" before this period. There is only one second coming.

And here is something else to think about and never made any sense to me. According to the pre-trib rapture (and years and years ago I believed in this pre-trib rapture business.). Anyway after were raptured we will be having the Lambs supper at Revelation 19:6-9. It does not make sense that we will all be rejoicing and eating while all hell is breaking loose here on earth.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

....and yet rev 14 HAS A GATHERING/ rapture during the trib.
But hey,don't let that "fool"you

 

[DudleyDorite]

Bluto said,

And here is something else to think about and never made any sense to me. According to the pre-trib rapture (and years and years ago I believed in this pre-trib rapture business.). Anyway after were raptured we will be having the Lambs supper at Revelation 19:6-9. It does not make sense that we will all be rejoicing and eating while all hell is breaking loose here on earth.

Nothing makes sense in pre-trib. I use to be a pre-tribber too.

I think, but not sure because pre-trib is such a fabricated mess, they'll tell you the Marriage Supper of the Lamb occurs immediately after the pre-trib rapture....another major contradiction.

I need to get away from this forum for a while. Most of the people here don't have or even know what a hermeneutic is. This is a place where Abel was an apostle who took the gospel to Cain, where buying and selling means worship and spiritual truth hidden in parables, where 1,000 years doesn't mean 1,000 years, where believers that die have their souls resurrected to indwell the hearts of other living believers here on earth, where the gathering and parousia happen 7 years apart even when the gathering is said to happen at the parousia, and where we are already in tribulation.

I think you Bluto and Spoonjuly I think it is, are the few that make sense here. I feel like I'm wasting my time, it's not worth the effort dealing with this foolishness. I'll work on my website instead and leave the rest of them to their delusions.

I'm going on vacation away from the people on this forum for a while.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Nothing makes sense in pre-trib.

It is not supposed to make *sense*. It is strictly for those who can discern spiritual things.
In fact nothing in the Gospel makes *sense*. Think about that.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Bluto said,



Nothing makes sense in pre-trib. I use to be a pre-tribber too.

I think, but not sure because pre-trib is such a fabricated mess, they'll tell you the Marriage Supper of the Lamb occurs immediately after the pre-trib rapture....another major contradiction.

I need to get away from this forum for a while. Most of the people here don't have or even know what a hermeneutic is. This is a place where Abel was an apostle who took the gospel to Cain, where buying and selling means worship and spiritual truth hidden in parables, where 1,000 years doesn't mean 1,000 years, where believers that die have their souls resurrected to indwell the hearts of other living believers here on earth, where the gathering and parousia happen 7 years apart even when the gathering is said to happen at the parousia, and where we are already in tribulation.

I think you Bluto and Spoonjuly I think it is, are the few that make sense here. I feel like I'm wasting my time, it's not worth the effort dealing with this foolishness. I'll work on my website instead and leave the rest of them to their delusions.

I'm going on vacation away from the people on this forum for a while.

I know the feeling brother.
Like talking to a fence post.

 

[bluto]

Bluto said,



Nothing makes sense in pre-trib. I use to be a pre-tribber too.

I think, but not sure because pre-trib is such a fabricated mess, they'll tell you the Marriage Supper of the Lamb occurs immediately after the pre-trib rapture....another major contradiction.

I need to get away from this forum for a while. Most of the people here don't have or even know what a hermeneutic is. This is a place where Abel was an apostle who took the gospel to Cain, where buying and selling means worship and spiritual truth hidden in parables, where 1,000 years doesn't mean 1,000 years, where believers that die have their souls resurrected to indwell the hearts of other living believers here on earth, where the gathering and parousia happen 7 years apart even when the gathering is said to happen at the parousia, and where we are already in tribulation.

I think you Bluto and Spoonjuly I think it is, are the few that make sense here. I feel like I'm wasting my time, it's not worth the effort dealing with this foolishness. I'll work on my website instead and leave the rest of them to their delusions.

I'm going on vacation away from the people on this forum for a while.

I appreciate your kind words dud, but don't let this stuff get to you. Keep in mind there are "lurkers" that read this stuff and not to mention the fact that God may even touch staunch pre-tribbers to come to their senses. I personally know some that changed their position because ultimately His Word accomplishes what He desires. (Isaiah 55:11). Sometimes you see results and sometimes you don't. Give this some thought and enjoy your vacation. Btw, there are other topics that can be discussed on these boards so keep up the good work.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And speaking of "correlation!" I don't know if you read in one of my very first post about what I said regarding 2 Thessalonians 1:6,7. "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, vs7, and give "rest/relief" to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN (will we get rest or relief), when the LOrd Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire."

If you read the rest of the verses, especially vs10, "when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed." Now, correlate this with what Jesus said at Luke 21:25-35. Notice the context and especially vs28, "But when these things began to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

The question is "when is it drawing near?" Or when will we get "rest/relief" according to 2 Thessalonians 1:7. Now look what it says at Luke 21:35, "for it will come upon all those who DWELL ON THE FACE OF ALL THE EARTH." And notice vs36, "But keep on the alert at all times, praying, (why) in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

If were going to be raptured as you and others believe, why is it that we need to be praying for strength in order to be raptured? I guess now it's time for you to come up with another time frame excuse for the rapture.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

You've got a lot going on in this post. In order for me to cover it all, I'll have to make my response in several posts (as I'm uncertain how much text fits into one post, plus people rarely read long posts )

...so please excuse the formatting of the following, as I answer each section (here's the first post):

[bluto--]

...2Thessalonians 1:6,7. "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, vs7, and give "rest/relief" to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN (will we get rest or relief), when the LOrd Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire."

[TDW--]

"rest/repose with us in the revelation," is what the text says.

But recall what I'd said regarding "the Day of the Lord," how that it is not a singular 24-hr day, and that it commences at SEAL #1, and that many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" follow on from there, over the course of the 70th Week/7-yrs (the Day of the Lord itself continues on into and throughout the 1000 yrs).

Jer46:10 - "For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries." [this is distinct from the phrase "DAYS [plural] of vengeance" used elsewhere]

I don't believe the phrase "IN THE REVELATION of" means in the split-second moment of His Second Coming to the earth. It refers to the entire time period once He "STANDS to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Lam2:3-4; Rev4-5] and that STARTS at SEAL #1. There is MUCH MORE TO FOLLOW (from that point), but Revelation 1:1 does state that these are "things which must come to pass [4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," so it's not describing things occurring over the course of some 2000 yrs, but relatively short--that is, over 7 years' time--2520 days from Seal 1 to Rev19 and His "RETURN" to the earth there.


[bluto--]

If you read the rest of the verses, especially vs10, "when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed."

[TDW--]

Verse 10 (the latter part of) is telling of what will occur FUTURE ("IN THAT DAY"), JUST AS 2TH2:10-12 is [!] (but the two passages are showing OPPOSITE responses, by those existing in that future "day" / "in that day" / "the Day of the Lord [time period]")... People will either come to believe that what Paul taught "the Church" [us] IS INDEED TRUE [we ourselves will have been raptured at this point] OR they will not have received the love of the truth and will [now] believe "THE PSEUDEI [the FALSE / the LIE--G5579]" INSTEAD.

These two passages (of the SAME CONTEXT) are CONTRASTING the two responses that will occur IN that FUTURE time period (FOLLOWING the Rapture of "the Church which is His body," when now "the Day of the Lord" will have ARRIVED, with its "man of sin").

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

(2nd post)

[bluto--]

Now, correlate this with what Jesus said at Luke 21:25-35. Notice the context and especially vs28, "But when these things began to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
The question is "when is it drawing near?"

[TDW--]

Verse 28 (Lk21) is referring to His Second Coming to the earth (for their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom). Jesus is speaking to a group of "not-yet-Spirit-indwelt" JEWISH believers/disciples ABOUT THEIR promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom ["the age [singular] to come"], and He is using a "proleptic 'you'," meaning, all those in the future 'of the same category' (that is, Jewish people [believers] who WERE/HAVE BEEN promised such a thing! [and yes, THEY will be doing the "INVITING" TO that, DURING the trib (Matt22:8-14; Matt24:14(26:13); Matt25:31-34,40; parts of Matt13; Rev19:9 [distinct from Rev19:7])]


[bluto--]

Or when will we get "rest/relief" according to 2 Thessalonians 1:7. Now look what it says at Luke 21:35, "for it will come upon all those who DWELL ON THE FACE OF ALL THE EARTH."

[TDW--]

"The Church which is His body" will not (at that time) be dwelling on the earth. Note how The Revelation tells of two distinct things, in the phrases it uses: "they that dwell upon the earth" and "those dwelling [present participle] in heaven". Distinguish these things, and your vision will become clearer.

Again, Paul in 2Th2, is telling of the relation TIME-WISE between our Rapture/Departure and the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL [time period]" with its "man of sin" ['in his time']... He is stating that it (the DOTL) is not present [v.3], not to believe anyone trying to convince them that it "IS PRESENT" [v.2], and that "it shall not be present if not shall have come The Departure FIRST [ONE THING (noun-event) FIRST!] AND the man of sin be revealed..." (this SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in 2Th2, and is the SAME SEQUENCE as found in 1Th4-5).

ONE THING "FIRST" before "the Day of the Lord [time period]" with all of its judgments and vengeance can BE PRESENT to unfold upon the earth (starting at SEAL #1--the AC--the "man of sin"--the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin [Dan9:27a/26]--the "[G5100 - tis] "A CERTAIN ONE" [in the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]"-1Th5:2-3] of Matt24:4 / Mk13:5).


What you are wanting to do is to mixed up who-is-who (not to mention the matter of "chronology"--what happens when).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

(3rd post)

[bluto--]

And notice vs36, "But keep on the alert at all times, praying, (why) in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

[TDW--]

The phrase "Son of man" is His role in relation to Israel and their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom. ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come," etc, refer to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (not to our Rapture "in the air"). [His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]," aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth]" upon His "RETURN" there]

"OUR" [the Church which is His body] "citizenship is in heaven," and we are not to "mind earthly things" (Israel's "earthly things") but are instead to "set our mind on things above" (because very important things have taken place, per that text, with regard to "the Church which is His body"--again, note "WHEN" Eph1:20-23).


[bluto--]

If were going to be raptured as you and others believe, why is it that we need to be praying for strength in order to be raptured? I guess now it's time for you to come up with another time frame excuse for the rapture [emoticon image]

[TDW--]

We don't need to be praying that.

There WILL BE people in the tribulation period who will need to be praying that, in order for them to "[ACTIVELY] FLEE OUT OF" each and every thing that will take place on the earth during that time period, and to "stand before the Son of man" (that is, at His "RETURN" TO THE EARTH, FOR the earthly MK). People will be coming to faith WITHIN the tribulation period.

Nobody is to be praying for strength in order to be raptured ["Rapture" is NOT that verse's CONTEXT]; what Scripture says of US ("the Church which is His body") is this: 1Th5:10, "the One having died for us, [in order] THAT whether we should watch or whether we should sleep [same Grk word as in verse 6! (not meaning "DEATH" here!)] we should live together WITH [G4862 - syn - denoting UNION] HIM."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Perhaps you are referring to a believing Jewish remnant (represented by the woman) which is preserved by God in the wilderness during the reign of the Antichrist (Rev 12:6, 14-16). Other than that group all those who refuse to take the Mark are beheaded (Rev 20:14).

In your first sentence, you are [likely] referring to (and if so, I would agree):

Matthew 24 -

"16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

Here, we see that it is "them which be in Judaea" who will be specifically the ones who are to "flee into the mountains" (which I do believe corresponds with Rev12:6,14-16).

I also believe there will be those "of Israel" living all over the world (at that time) who will also be coming to faith within that time period (those are all the ones who will be delivering the specific message of Matt24:14[26:13]/Matt22:8-14/Rev19:9[distinct from 19:7] DURING the future tribulation period. The "invitation" TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (which is the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" there).

The "SHEEP/goats" (of the Gentiles/nations [plural]) of Matt25:31-34 are the "guests [plural]" who will have been "INVITED" (to the earthly MK--the wedding FEAST/SUPPER), but [of those] only do "the righteous [the 'ye BLESSED' / the Sheep]" actually enter the MK time period. This is one of the texts (of a number of them) that show STILL-LIVING/MORTAL persons entering the earthly MK time period. [the "ye CURSED" will not enter, as we know]

There is no "resurrection" in such passages (this is not to say there won't be any "resurrection" at that time; I already pointed out Dan12:13 [OT saints], and Rev20:4 [trib saints who die in the trib]). This is separate (and is not describing) our "Rapture".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here's something I ponder (in view of some other posts regarding it):

Revelation 14:14 says,

"And I saw, and lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown [stephanon], and in his hand a sharp sickle" (--ylt, esv, nasb, etc)

--why is there no definite article ["the"] in the Greek, before the phrase "son of man"? and why "like unto"?

--why is this one wearing a gold/golden "STEPHANON/crown" [recall, many were cast before the throne, back in 4:10], whereas in Rev19:12 (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) it says of Jesus "on His head were many diadems/diademata" (a completely distinct kind of "crown")?

 

[garee]

666 is not 2/3 or 1/3 of anything. It is the number of the beast and those who can, will calculate the number of the beast.

Rev 13: 18Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred three score and six.

If you can calculate the number please do and show as what you get. I'm sure 1/3 or 2/3 are mentioned several times over the scriptures but we both know it's not what is being asked for in Rev 13.

666 reveals the calculated number of the beast that God has set aside to respresent to mankind created in the image of God alone . The number is not in respect to the other beasts of the field created on the sixth day. Its the number assigned to mankind, two thirds a dividing line is the same.

Using six three times establishes the end of the matter.

 

[Noose]

666 reveals the calculated number of the beast that God has set aside to respresent to mankind created in the image of God alone . The number is not in respect to the other beasts of the field created on the sixth day. Its the number assigned to mankind, two thirds a dividing line is the same.

Using six three times establishes the end of the matter.

I'm not a beast of the field, i was created in the image of God.

 

[garee]

The key to rev 14 is 1) jews 2) firstfruits
The 144 k are firstfruits. First jews in the jewish harvest. But not first. Jesus with the patriarchs is firstfruits then Main harvest ,which is the pretrib rapture including the dead in christ. The millions martyred by AC are part of the main.

Take a look at the wedding supper parable. You see only one group harvested?

Yes the bride of Christ the church

Paul acting as surrogate mother the church as a metaphor speaks of being born again

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,Galatians 4:19

God is no respecter of persons in respect to the clay he forms Christ in.. Man can plant the incorruptible seed of God's word by which men are born again but only the Potter who forms Christ can cause the growth

If any man has not the eternal Spirit of Christ, Jew or Gentile, male or female they will not rise to new eternal life on the last day, the second resurrection and final resurrection .

The metaphorical number 144,000 in the parable are the elect from the beginning of time (Jew and Gentile male and female )They alone are considered as virgins having not fornicated with the gods of this world, Satan. Called strange women

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Revelation 14:

These are they which were not defiled with women are the strange women, natural unconverted mankind, called the daughters of men in Genesis 6.

Paul again is used in a parable as a surrogate mother to represent the bride of Christ, the church, travailing in birth again until Christ be formed in Timothy as to the end of the goal, espousing timothy to Christ our husband as one that had not fornicated with the gods of this world, the strange women

2 Corinthians 11:2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

 

[garee]

I'm not a beast of the field, i was created in the image of God.

If mankind was formed of the dust of the field they are beasts of the field. My wife calls us cavemen.

Adam was not excluded as one .

And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.Genesis 2:20

Satan the father of lies, the god of this world who has no form was more subtil than any beast of the field. But again not considered a beast. Like Peter was in Mathew 16:22-23

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

He was cursed above beasts of the field as that seen. But is never identified as one. He remains without form (no DNA) dust and water .

Genesis 3:14And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

 

[bluto]

You've got a lot going on in this post. In order for me to cover it all, I'll have to make my response in several posts (as I'm uncertain how much text fits into one post, plus people rarely read long posts )

...so please excuse the formatting of the following, as I answer each section (here's the first post):

[bluto--]


[TDW--]

"rest/repose with us in the revelation," is what the text says.

But recall what I'd said regarding "the Day of the Lord," how that it is not a singular 24-hr day, and that it commences at SEAL #1, and that many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" follow on from there, over the course of the 70th Week/7-yrs (the Day of the Lord itself continues on into and throughout the 1000 yrs).

Jer46:10 - "For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries." [this is distinct from the phrase "DAYS [plural] of vengeance" used elsewhere]

I don't believe the phrase "IN THE REVELATION of" means in the split-second moment of His Second Coming to the earth. It refers to the entire time period once He "STANDS to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Lam2:3-4; Rev4-5] and that STARTS at SEAL #1. There is MUCH MORE TO FOLLOW (from that point), but Revelation 1:1 does state that these are "things which must come to pass [4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," so it's not describing things occurring over the course of some 2000 yrs, but relatively short--that is, over 7 years' time--2520 days from Seal 1 to Rev19 and His "RETURN" to the earth there.


[bluto--]


[TDW--]

Verse 10 (the latter part of) is telling of what will occur FUTURE ("IN THAT DAY"), JUST AS 2TH2:10-12 is [!] (but the two passages are showing OPPOSITE responses, by those existing in that future "day" / "in that day" / "the Day of the Lord [time period]")... People will either come to believe that what Paul taught "the Church" [us] IS INDEED TRUE [we ourselves will have been raptured at this point] OR they will not have received the love of the truth and will [now] believe "THE PSEUDEI [the FALSE / the LIE--G5579]" INSTEAD.

These two passages (of the SAME CONTEXT) are CONTRASTING the two responses that will occur IN that FUTURE time period (FOLLOWING the Rapture of "the Church which is His body," when now "the Day of the Lord" will have ARRIVED, with its "man of sin").

Just to let you know that I appreciate your post and the time your taking to explain things. Now comes the "BUT." When we follow this issue starting with what Jesus said to His disciples at Matthew 24:3 where the following question is raised, "Tell us when will these things, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the END OF THE AGE/WORLD." And as you know the rest of Matthew 24:4-32 is where Jesus explains what will happen.

Jumping now to 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians the Apostle Paul explains further and backs up what Jesus said. Paul is reassuring the Thessalonian believers which brings up 2 Thessalonians 1:6,7 which is crystal clear as to when we get "rest/relief/repose which is Strong's #425. To me this is straightforward but to you, (and this is what I see pre-tribbers do all the time) is inject, "the 70th week, the seals, the viles, lampstands, mark of the beast, day of the Lord like the soap opera "Days of Our Lives" etc. And then somewhere in all this mess is suppose to be the rapture.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Just to let you know that I appreciate your post and the time your taking to explain things. Now comes the "BUT." When we follow this issue starting with what Jesus said to His disciples at Matthew 24:3 where the following question is raised, "Tell us when will these things, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the END OF THE AGE/WORLD." And as you know the rest of Matthew 24:4-32 is where Jesus explains what will happen.

Jumping now to 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians the Apostle Paul explains further and backs up what Jesus said. Paul is reassuring the Thessalonian believers which brings up 2 Thessalonians 1:6,7 which is crystal clear as to when we get "rest/relief/repose which is Strong's #425. To me this is straightforward but to you, (and this is what I see pre-tribbers do all the time) is inject, "the 70th week, the seals, the viles, lampstands, mark of the beast, day of the Lord like the soap opera "Days of Our Lives" etc. And then somewhere in all this mess is suppose to be the rapture.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

bluto, a lot of this boils down to the proper [biblical] definition of the phrase "the day of the Lord".

THIS is what the Thessalonians [wrongly] believed "IS PRESENT" (and the REASON this is so "believable" to them, who well-KNOW "what" the day of the Lord consists of [THEY had a proper, biblical understanding of "what" it is], the reason it was BELIEVABLE to them is their own present and ongoing, negative circumstances they were at that present time EXPERIENCING, per chapter 1, esp vv.4-6).

Paul is telling them, no, it is not "PRESENT"... "that day [the subject OF VERSE 2! grammatically-speaking] WILL NOT BE PRESENT if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*..." (THIS is now, grammatically, speaking of "THE" noun-event already spoken of IN THE CONTEXT, per v.1).

Defining "the day of the Lord" in the faulty way that the Amill-teaching does (virtually made up, wholly apart from how Scripture itself defines it--IT IS NOT a "singular 24-hr "day") then one comes away MISSING what it is Paul is intending to convey.

That is just ONE of the missteps.

Another: "IS PRESENT" (in the PERFECT TENSE, as it is here) is what verse 2 states (NOT "is near, is approaching, is soon to arrive, is at hand" etc, but "IS PRESENT [perfect tense]" )--this is what Paul is telling them NOT to allow anyone to CONVINCE them is TRUE!) And then verse 15, at the other end of the entire section [CONTEXT], states [essentially], "don't believe THEM [those telling you the DOTL 'IS PRESENT'], believe what WE taught you!"


[ ^ the truths applicable specifically TO, FOR, and ABOUT "the Church which is His body" [note: "WHEN" Eph1:20-23]--of whom "the Rapture" solely pertains [not to all other saints of all other time periods!], along with the other truths (pertaining solely to "the body" as well)]


Those are just two things in this [wider] context which people consistently misinterpret, thus coming up with something other than what Paul was actually conveying, here.


[note: when "IN THAT DAY" is used in contexts of "the day of the Lord" they refer to the same thing, as in THIS CONTEXT as well]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

... tried to edit that last addition ^ ...

So my point, there, is to say, take a look at the context (or contexts) where "IN THAT DAY" is used alongside (in same context) as the phrase "the day of the Lord" and one can see that, not only is it not a 24-hr day, but in THIS context, shows the contrast of the positive responders with the negative responders IN THAT [future] DAY [which is obviously a time period of some DURATION, JUST LIKE "the day of salvation" ALSO is!], which is [will be] "the day of the Lord" (the time period... not a 24-hr day!)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Now comes the "BUT." When we follow this issue starting with what Jesus said to His disciples at Matthew 24:3 where the following question is raised, "Tell us when will these things, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the END OF THE AGE/WORLD." And as you know the rest of Matthew 24:4-32 is where Jesus explains what will happen.

Jumping now to...

I had intended to cover this specific point but it slipped my mind (because I think I already did cover it very briefly in a previous post somewhere ), but wanted to speak more specifically to this point:

The disciples asked Him about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (in Matt24:3) based on a convo He had ALREADY addressed with them back [at a previous time] in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50. THERE, the order [of events] is in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE [(and this is SAID to the angels/REAPERS) 'gather ye FIRST the TARES'] to that being shown in both 2Th2 (as I've said is mentioned 3x in THIS chpt, 2Th2) AND 1Th4-5 (that's 4x THIS SEQUENCE is shown, that is completely OPPOSITE to that of Matthew 13's, which is what the disciples are asking Jesus about in Matt24:3 and He is elaborating on in the remainder of the Olivet Discourse, that is, chpts 24-25).

 

[bluto]

... tried to edit that last addition ^ ...

So my point, there, is to say, take a look at the context (or contexts) where "IN THAT DAY" is used alongside (in same context) as the phrase "the day of the Lord" and one can see that, not only is it not a 24-hr day, but in THIS context, shows the contrast of the positive responders with the negative responders IN THAT [future] DAY [which is obviously a time period of some DURATION, JUST LIKE "the day of salvation" ALSO is!], which is [will be] "the day of the Lord" (the time period... not a 24-hr day!)

Boys, boys, boys, I get all that, I know it's not a 24hour day and in fact I never even thought of it as a 24 hour day. Look at the question again from Matthew 24:3, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age/world." Here we are some 2,000 years later and were still in the "birth pangs" and from the looks of things their getting worse day by day.

I'm also convinced that it will get much worse than it is now. So like I explained the Apostle Paul is actuall conforting the Thessalonian believers to be about the Lord's business and watch yourself as well. Please read 1 Thess 5. Then at 2 Thess we have chapter 1:6,7 dealing with the rest etc. Paul further goes on to explain not to be shaken from your composure 2 Thess 2. And at chapter 3 praying that the word of the Lord spreads.

I still do not see based on the Bible nor do I believe that there is a rapture, there is only one second coming, period. I still have not heard from you guys a resonable and biblical explanation of Hebrews 9:28. That verse explicitly says Jesus will appear a second time, not a rapture and then a second coming.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Boys, boys, boys, I get all that, I know it's not a 24hour day and in fact I never even thought of it as a 24 hour day. Look at the question again from Matthew 24:3, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age/world." Here we are some 2,000 years later and were still in the "birth pangs" and from the looks of things their getting worse day by day.

According to Paul's writing (what he was given to write), the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" (the SAME GRK WORD Jesus used in the PLURAL, Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8 "PANGS"), so the INITIAL "SINGULAR" birth PANG (that which kicks off the whole time period) has not yet ARRIVED

[I've pointed out how 1Th5:2-3 the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" = the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of "the man of sin [2Th2:9a / Dan9:27a(26) - "for ONE WEEK [7yrs]"] = Matt24:4/Mk13:5's "G5100 - tis - A CERTAIN ONE" = SEAL #1... ALL THIS is the same item when "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES... it hasn't arrived to play out on the earth yet. ONE THING must happen "FIRST" (THE DEPARTURE/RAPTURE--that is the SEQUENCE, here); the INITIAL "birth PANG" of many MORE to follow, has not yet begun! (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 has not been occurring over the past some 2000 years! and the SEQUENCE even within the Olivet Discourse shows the 70ad events had to occur "before all these [beginning of birth pangs]" even... there's more to say on that...]