predestination vs freewill
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Something I wrote on another thread. Thought it might be of interest over here.
I find it humorous when you say I will not accept the truth when presented. Well let's see - I and 31% of the Protestant churches.
According to a recent poll of Christian religion, Source -(The Barna Group, November 10, 2010) - Protestant churches fall into two major categories:
31% - Classify themselves as 5 point Grace Churches. (Calvinist). The growth of which has remained flat as compared to 2000.
32% - Classify themselves as Wesleyan/Arminian. Growth of which is down 5% since 2000.
Further research shows - that among Non-Denominational churches, those who consider themselves Reformed or 5 point Grace, are even higher.
So the conclusion is - Protestant Churches who follow Calvin's basic teachings are tied with those who follow after Arminius' teachings. Perhaps the real question is: Can a TRUE believer stand on either side of this issue? Personally, I don't think so. I have given this question much thought over the years and do not believe that both can have Salvation. One side knows the TRUTH because they are Spirit Regenerated believers and the other side is still in their natural darkened state. My reasoning for this can be summed up in this way: I cannot fathom, the same indwelling Holy Spirit, guiding one of Christ's into two different thought processes. He is the Spirit of TRUTH. While it is possible, that one of Christ's own can be temporarily mired in the wrong system of Soteriology; the Holy Spirit will not allow this one to stay mired for long.
Those who have the 5 points of Grace and stand for them - in doing so - honor God, honor His Sovereignty, honor Christ's Person and Work and honor man's place as a created being, answerable to God. In short, it is all about the Father and His Son's Glory and the debasement of fallen man. ALL other forms of Soteriology, in some way, attempt to elevate man's position. This then, is a rebellion against God's Eternal Purpose. A rebellion against Election and Predestination.
I personally do not consider myself a Calvinist because John Calvin did not originate this Doctrine. It is the Doctrine of Scripture. You might find the following of interest.
Augustine believed “it all depends on God’s sovereign will to choose some and pass over others.”
When we arrive at the great theologian and high-water mark of medieval scholasticism, Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274), we might think we’ve left Augustine’s thought behind. Certainly, Thomas was not as passionate about prioritizing divine grace as Augustine was. That might have been due to his temperament or to the genre in which he wrote. In fact, however, he followed Augustine in the main on predestination. “Predestination,” he said, is an “ordering of some persons towards eternal salvation, existing in the divine mind.” He noted that God, “by predestinating from eternity, so decreed our salvation, that it should be achieved through Jesus Christ. For predestination covers not only that which is to be accomplished in time, but also the mode and order in which it is to be accomplished in time.”
J.B. Mozley is surely correct:
“Between the Augustinian and Thomist doctrine of predestination, and that of Calvin, I can see no substantial difference.”
So why do they call it Calvinism? He did not originate it. What about Martin Luther?
I find it humorous when you say I will not accept the truth when presented. Well let's see - I and 31% of the Protestant churches.
According to a recent poll of Christian religion, Source -(The Barna Group, November 10, 2010) - Protestant churches fall into two major categories:
31% - Classify themselves as 5 point Grace Churches. (Calvinist). The growth of which has remained flat as compared to 2000.
32% - Classify themselves as Wesleyan/Arminian. Growth of which is down 5% since 2000.
Further research shows - that among Non-Denominational churches, those who consider themselves Reformed or 5 point Grace, are even higher.
So the conclusion is - Protestant Churches who follow Calvin's basic teachings are tied with those who follow after Arminius' teachings. Perhaps the real question is: Can a TRUE believer stand on either side of this issue? Personally, I don't think so. I have given this question much thought over the years and do not believe that both can have Salvation. One side knows the TRUTH because they are Spirit Regenerated believers and the other side is still in their natural darkened state. My reasoning for this can be summed up in this way: I cannot fathom, the same indwelling Holy Spirit, guiding one of Christ's into two different thought processes. He is the Spirit of TRUTH. While it is possible, that one of Christ's own can be temporarily mired in the wrong system of Soteriology; the Holy Spirit will not allow this one to stay mired for long.
Those who have the 5 points of Grace and stand for them - in doing so - honor God, honor His Sovereignty, honor Christ's Person and Work and honor man's place as a created being, answerable to God. In short, it is all about the Father and His Son's Glory and the debasement of fallen man. ALL other forms of Soteriology, in some way, attempt to elevate man's position. This then, is a rebellion against God's Eternal Purpose. A rebellion against Election and Predestination.
I personally do not consider myself a Calvinist because John Calvin did not originate this Doctrine. It is the Doctrine of Scripture. You might find the following of interest.
Augustine believed “it all depends on God’s sovereign will to choose some and pass over others.”
When we arrive at the great theologian and high-water mark of medieval scholasticism, Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274), we might think we’ve left Augustine’s thought behind. Certainly, Thomas was not as passionate about prioritizing divine grace as Augustine was. That might have been due to his temperament or to the genre in which he wrote. In fact, however, he followed Augustine in the main on predestination. “Predestination,” he said, is an “ordering of some persons towards eternal salvation, existing in the divine mind.” He noted that God, “by predestinating from eternity, so decreed our salvation, that it should be achieved through Jesus Christ. For predestination covers not only that which is to be accomplished in time, but also the mode and order in which it is to be accomplished in time.”
J.B. Mozley is surely correct:
“Between the Augustinian and Thomist doctrine of predestination, and that of Calvin, I can see no substantial difference.”
So why do they call it Calvinism? He did not originate it. What about Martin Luther?
Going back over some of the older posts, I found this reply and must ask a question.
You said: We are raised to spiritual life when we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ’s death and resurrection.
You are aware, right? That Baptism of the Spirit and being Born of the Spirit are not the same thing? You seem to be giving Baptized the same meaning as Born.
You said: We are raised to spiritual life when we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ’s death and resurrection.
You are aware, right? That Baptism of the Spirit and being Born of the Spirit are not the same thing? You seem to be giving Baptized the same meaning as Born.
You guys keep discussing these great subjects from a purely Temporal aspect.
You asked, if it were possible that sin was forgiven before it was committed? From the legal point of view - YES. From a practical point of view - NO. We commit sins and are told to seek forgiveness for those sins with our Intercessor, Jesus Christ. However, from the Father's point of view, He does not see them. He only sees the completed work of Jesus Christ, for the Elect. Thus, the Father sees the Elect through His Son's Redemptive work. To the Father - the Elect are and shall ever be, Justified and Righteous because He only sees them in His Son. However, that work does not start at the Cross, from a legal point of view, indeed, it ends at the Cross.
It started in the mind of God, It is Eternal with Him. It was completed in His mind. Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was the practical application of God's mind. His Purpose and Plan carried out in time. It had to be accomplished. It needed to be manifested before others. The sacrifice had to take on a real death and shedding of Blood. But - Judicially it started in the mind of God. God could apply the effects of the sacrifice, to the Elect, from the beginning of the fall because it was assured. Christ came at the time appointed from Eternity. He was born in the manner determined from Eternity. Christ did the deeds His Father gave Him to do from Eternity. Christ spoke the Words given to Him by the Father from Eternity. Christ died for those the Father gave to Him from Eternity. Nothing could stop Christ from accomplishing what the Father sent Him to do. This is what John meant when he wrote in the Revelation of Jesus Christ:
Rev_13:8b ..written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Also, the Psalmist wrote of this Redemptive Purpose as a given fact:
Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Psa 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Psa 103:13 Like as a father pities his children, so the LORD pities them that fear him.
Much of New Testament Scripture, when it comes to the subject of Soteriology, is either explaining the "how" of something that has taken place or is looking back to the "application" of something and it's results. Very little of the Pauline Epistles is dealing with the now or future of Soteriology. Peter and John, in their Epistles, wrote about how we should live our lives because of what had taken place in our lives.
Always keep Eternity in focus, when reading Temporal texts. OIC1965 for example, did not like my eternal based answer about being "IN Christ" That there was never a time when the Elect were not in Christ. We were in Christ by the divine Covenant relationship, which was in the mind of God. This is what the writer of Hebrews meant when he wrote:
Heb_9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,
Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant. The blood Covenant of the Lamb. Christ was the mediator of the FIRST Covenant, that moved forward the transgressions and sins of the OT Saints. Finally, Christ is the mediator of the Eternal Covenant. The Eternal Covenant - accomplished in the mind of God - and is the "Umbrella Covenant" that the other two Covenants rests under. If this were not true, then the Lord could not have moved the OT transgressions and sins by types and shadows. Animal sacrifices have no real "efficacy". Only God could appease God. Therefore, the fact that the OT Saints were forgiven before the actual carrying out of the Lamb's Sacrifice - Proves that the Sacrifice was already accepted before the world began.
So yes, the Elect enter this world a a fallen creatures, must be Regenerated at the appropriate time, place their belief on Jesus Christ and except the Gospel as God's Truth. BUT !!!! These things will happen to the Elect in time because it is Guaranteed from the mind of God from all Eternity.
You asked, if it were possible that sin was forgiven before it was committed? From the legal point of view - YES. From a practical point of view - NO. We commit sins and are told to seek forgiveness for those sins with our Intercessor, Jesus Christ. However, from the Father's point of view, He does not see them. He only sees the completed work of Jesus Christ, for the Elect. Thus, the Father sees the Elect through His Son's Redemptive work. To the Father - the Elect are and shall ever be, Justified and Righteous because He only sees them in His Son. However, that work does not start at the Cross, from a legal point of view, indeed, it ends at the Cross.
It started in the mind of God, It is Eternal with Him. It was completed in His mind. Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was the practical application of God's mind. His Purpose and Plan carried out in time. It had to be accomplished. It needed to be manifested before others. The sacrifice had to take on a real death and shedding of Blood. But - Judicially it started in the mind of God. God could apply the effects of the sacrifice, to the Elect, from the beginning of the fall because it was assured. Christ came at the time appointed from Eternity. He was born in the manner determined from Eternity. Christ did the deeds His Father gave Him to do from Eternity. Christ spoke the Words given to Him by the Father from Eternity. Christ died for those the Father gave to Him from Eternity. Nothing could stop Christ from accomplishing what the Father sent Him to do. This is what John meant when he wrote in the Revelation of Jesus Christ:
Rev_13:8b ..written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Also, the Psalmist wrote of this Redemptive Purpose as a given fact:
Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Psa 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Psa 103:13 Like as a father pities his children, so the LORD pities them that fear him.
Much of New Testament Scripture, when it comes to the subject of Soteriology, is either explaining the "how" of something that has taken place or is looking back to the "application" of something and it's results. Very little of the Pauline Epistles is dealing with the now or future of Soteriology. Peter and John, in their Epistles, wrote about how we should live our lives because of what had taken place in our lives.
Always keep Eternity in focus, when reading Temporal texts. OIC1965 for example, did not like my eternal based answer about being "IN Christ" That there was never a time when the Elect were not in Christ. We were in Christ by the divine Covenant relationship, which was in the mind of God. This is what the writer of Hebrews meant when he wrote:
Heb_9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,
Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant. The blood Covenant of the Lamb. Christ was the mediator of the FIRST Covenant, that moved forward the transgressions and sins of the OT Saints. Finally, Christ is the mediator of the Eternal Covenant. The Eternal Covenant - accomplished in the mind of God - and is the "Umbrella Covenant" that the other two Covenants rests under. If this were not true, then the Lord could not have moved the OT transgressions and sins by types and shadows. Animal sacrifices have no real "efficacy". Only God could appease God. Therefore, the fact that the OT Saints were forgiven before the actual carrying out of the Lamb's Sacrifice - Proves that the Sacrifice was already accepted before the world began.
So yes, the Elect enter this world a a fallen creatures, must be Regenerated at the appropriate time, place their belief on Jesus Christ and except the Gospel as God's Truth. BUT !!!! These things will happen to the Elect in time because it is Guaranteed from the mind of God from all Eternity.
Remember, you have no life until you are born of the Spirit AND you have no life until you are in Christ. As I have demonstrated from the scriptures
And don’t say we were in Christ from eternity past, because if you argue in that direction, if we were in Christ in the sense that I am using the phrase, that would mean that we were never dead in trespasses and sins, in contradiction to Ephesians 2:1 and forward.
And don’t say we were in Christ from eternity past, because if you argue in that direction, if we were in Christ in the sense that I am using the phrase, that would mean that we were never dead in trespasses and sins, in contradiction to Ephesians 2:1 and forward.
Are we going down that road again.
What it means to be Born of the Spirit:
1) Regeneration is by the agency of the Holy Spirit.
2) Regeneration is the instantaneous operation of God.
3) Regeneration changes the nature of the heart.
4) The Spirit of Regeneration is irresistible.
5) Regeneration takes place in the sphere of man's subconsciousness.
6) Regeneration is the gift of Life.
7) Regeneration gives a good conscience.
8) Regeneration is not dependent on the Gospel.
9) Regeneration enables the recipient to put away the filth of the flesh.
10) Regeneration is the application of Christ's blood.
What it means to be Baptized by the Spirit:
1) Baptism by the Spirit empowers the individual with predetermined gifts.
2) Baptism by the Spirit places members into the body of Christ.
3) Baptism by the Spirit is collective and not individual. To the Jews first, then the Gentiles.
What it means to be Born of the Spirit:
1) Regeneration is by the agency of the Holy Spirit.
2) Regeneration is the instantaneous operation of God.
3) Regeneration changes the nature of the heart.
4) The Spirit of Regeneration is irresistible.
5) Regeneration takes place in the sphere of man's subconsciousness.
6) Regeneration is the gift of Life.
7) Regeneration gives a good conscience.
8) Regeneration is not dependent on the Gospel.
9) Regeneration enables the recipient to put away the filth of the flesh.
10) Regeneration is the application of Christ's blood.
What it means to be Baptized by the Spirit:
1) Baptism by the Spirit empowers the individual with predetermined gifts.
2) Baptism by the Spirit places members into the body of Christ.
3) Baptism by the Spirit is collective and not individual. To the Jews first, then the Gentiles.
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Yes they are distinctly different in there purpose. Believers, prior to Pentecost, were not yet united in Christ's death and resurrection because it had not yet taken place. They were placed in union with His death and resurrection at Pentecost. The Jewish believers were also empowered in this Baptism. Not just the ones present but all of the Jewish elect. When future Jews are Regenerated and believe, they are instantaneously placed in the body of Christ. The Gentiles were placed in the Body, in Acts 10:44.
I believe in resurrection life. Resurrection life occurs when we are baptized into Christ’s death and raised to walk in newness of life. I do not think that this baptism is water baptism. It is a work of God that water baptism signifies outwardly.
That is LIFE. The way you are defining regeneration, you are putting the application of the blood of Christ and the impartation of spiritual life SEPERATE and disconnected from baptism into Christ’s death and the spiritual raising to resurrected life that we experience.
I can go along with a monergistic work that prepares and changes a heart to receive the Gospel, but I am not on board with separating and disconnecting justification ( which is definitely a big part of what application of the blood is about) etc from the Spirits work of baptizing us into Christ’s death and raising us to walk in newness of life.
No resurrection without dying first.
That is LIFE. The way you are defining regeneration, you are putting the application of the blood of Christ and the impartation of spiritual life SEPERATE and disconnected from baptism into Christ’s death and the spiritual raising to resurrected life that we experience.
I can go along with a monergistic work that prepares and changes a heart to receive the Gospel, but I am not on board with separating and disconnecting justification ( which is definitely a big part of what application of the blood is about) etc from the Spirits work of baptizing us into Christ’s death and raising us to walk in newness of life.
No resurrection without dying first.
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Prior to Pentecost, they were still under the Old Covenant. Once Pentecost hit, the Promise is given to all who believe. And while this is corporate, it is also personal. If I was not put into Christ, I have no part in Him, and am yet dead in trespasses and sins
You said baptism into the body of Christ. We become one body by drinking of one Spirit. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, He is none of His.
You said baptism into the body of Christ. We become one body by drinking of one Spirit. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, He is none of His.
I would think fruitlessness would arrive when someone,like yourself for instance, regardless of scriptures that address how Jesus would be praying to the father when he was fully God as well as fully human, would take the time to find answers they refuse to accept when posted to forum discussions.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=was jesus praying to self praying to father&ko=-1&ia=web
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=was jesus praying to self praying to father&ko=-1&ia=web