Predestination; are fates set in some cases?

[oyster67]

Did the Holy Spirit seal those chosen before the foundation of the earth? It would seem they were chose before a belief in Christ was needed… So to speak.

No. The Holy Spirit seals those who choose to be born again. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

Jesus calls all men everywhere to repent and receive.

 

[Truthnightmare]

casting personal attacks and name calling just like other recent joiners pushing false doctrines. yet they get along great and compliment each other. how nice.

You called me a plagiarist, but didn’t even have the guts to say it outright. You have no proof of this, but it didn’t matter. Now you want to advocate for no name calling.

Anyway have at it, I’m sure more can be done for the Lord on a nice Sunday evening then arguments.

 

[Truthnightmare]

No. The Holy Spirit seals those who choose to be born again. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

Jesus calls all men everywhere to repent and receive.

The word is born from ἄνωθεν and ἄνωθεν does not mean “again” it means “above”


Original Word: ἄνωθεν
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: anóthen
Phonetic Spelling: (an'-o-then)
Definition: from above
Usage: (a) from above, from heaven, (b) from the beginning, from their origin (source), from of old, (c) again, anew

From ano; from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication,

 

[evyaniy]

done talking with you.

 

[Truthnightmare]

done talking with you.

🍺🍸🍾🎂

 

[Cameron143]

Well this could have gone better.

 

[evyaniy]

Yea, we need another 50+ page thread of confrontational theology to solve something there has been no consensus on in 2000 years.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Well this could have gone better.

Yea, I wish it would have… I posted scripture on the topic. Not saying I’m correct, just stating my opinion based off of what scriptures I have read.

Then Magneta posted scripture..

After that, scripture left the conversation, and for the next 15 or so post nothing from the word of God, just accusations and feelings.

Like everything else in life, you remove the word of God and chaos ensues.

 

[John146]

Did the Holy Spirit seal those chosen before the foundation of the earth? It would seem they were chose before a belief in Christ was needed… So to speak.

Predestination is a doctrine for those already saved. Not one person in scripture is predestinated to be saved.

 

[John146]

The Spirit has come in and made covenant seal. The Spirit will uphold His side of the Covenant, but this does not preclude apostacy on the part of the believer. The Prodigal Son must choose to return to the Father. Repentance has been made available, but it must be exercised whenever necessary. Perhaps daily.

The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his. Once sealed by the Holy Spirit, there is no undoing what the Lord has done. It is an unconditional promise.

 

[ResidentAlien]

done talking with you.

Done talking with whom? 99% of the time you seem to talk to yourself.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Predestination is a doctrine for those already saved. Not one person in scripture is predestinated to be saved.

But these people were chosen before they were born, that they will be blameless..
That kinda sounds like there salvation has been deemed, just like the fallen angel’s destruction was deemed long before Adam.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

 

[evyaniy]

Done talking with whom? 99% of the time you seem to talk to yourself.

what happened to Walter who was a delight to read?

 

[NightTwister]

The Bible makes clear that the concept of a predestined elect is related to the fact that God has foreknowledge of who will choose Him.

No, it's not just foreknowledge. We do not agree.

 

[evyaniy]

now we're cookin. engines engaged. throttle up.

 

[romans113336]

we can do we are still under Torah law but maybe just some aspects of it as part of Salvation. Or we can do yes we may be saved by Grace through Faith but need to work hard enough to keep it. Or we can do Yes, He is the Son of God but didn't exist till He was conceived or maybe at the creation. or we can do Romans 9, 10 and 11 and Jacob have I loved but Esau I have hated. That should fill up the schedule for a while.

I'm waiting for my "Not Under Law' post to be published.
Not sure if it's going to happen.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I think he should call it:

“The Pre-tribber‘s Guide to Predestination and Eternally Conscious Torment: How the Law of Moses is
for Today (Even if You are 1/2 Demon 1/2 Human - But Don't Worry, Be Happy, Because Some Day You
Will Be An Angel... Again!!!)) as Explained by the King James Version of the Bible Only. Volume 1: Why
You’re Going to Hell and I’m Not, According To The White Jesus”

I see… Let me wait for a new member to say something, I disagree with, then I will gather the long time members against them.

White Jesus? What race of people fulfilled these prophecies…

1. Israel to be great and mighty nation. Gen. 12:2; 18:18; Deut. 4:7,8.

2. Israel to have multitudinous seed. Gen. 13:16; 15:5; 22:17; 24:60; 26:4, 24; 28:3, 14; 32:12; 49:22; Isa. 10:22; Hos. 1:10; Zech. 10:7,8.

3. Israel to spread abroad to the West, East, North and South. Gen. 28:14; Isa. 42:5, 6.

4. Israel to have a new home. 2nd Sam. 7:10; 1st Chron. 17:9.

5. Israel's home to be north-west of Palestine. Isa. 49:12; Jer. 3:18.

6. Israel to live in islands and coasts of the earth. Isa. 41:1; 49:1-3; 51:5; Jer. 31:7-10.

7. Israel to become a company of nations. Gen. 17:4-6, 15,16; 35:11; 48:19; Eph. 2:12.

8. Israel to have a Davidic King (a perpetual monarchy within Israel). 2nd Sam. 7:13,19; 1st Chron. 22:10; 2nd Chron. 13:5; Psa. 89:20, 37; Eze. 37:24; Jer. 33:17, 21, 26.

9. Israel to colonize and spread abroad. Gen. 28:14; 49:22; Deut. 32:8; 33:17; Psa. 2:8; Isa. 26:15; 27:6; 54:2; Zech. 10:8,9.

10. Israel to colonize the desolate place of the earth. Isa. 35:1; 43:19, 20; 49:8; 54:3; 58:11, 12.
11. Israel to lose a colony, then expand, demanding more room. Isa. 49:19, 20.

12. Israel to have all the land needed. Deut. 32:8.

13. Israel to be the first among the nations. Gen. 27:29; 28:13; Jer. 31:7.

14. Israel to continue as a nation forever. 2nd Sam. 7:16, 24, 29; 1st Chron. 17:22-27; Jer. 31:35-37.

15. Israel's home to be invincible to outside forces. 2nd Sam. 7:10; Isa. 41:11-14.

16. Israel to be undefeatable - defended by God. Num. 24:8, 9; Isa. 15-17; Micah 5:8, 9.

17. Israel to be God's instrument in destroying evil. Jer. 51:20; 51:19-24; Dan. 2:34, 35.

18. Israel to have a land of great mineral wealth. Gen. 49:25, 26; Deut. 8:9; 33:15-19.

19. Israel to have a land of great agricultural wealth. Gen. 27:28; Deut. 8:7, 9; 28:11; 33:13, 14, 28.

20. Israel to be rich by trading. Isa. 60:5-11; 61:6.

21. Israel to be envied and feared by all nations. Deut. 2:25; 4:8; 28:10; Isa. 43:4; 60:10, 12; Micah 7:16, 17; Jer. 33:9.

22. Israel to lend to other nations, borrowing of none. Deut. 15:6; 28.12.

23. Israel to have a new name. Isa. 62:2; 65:15; Hos. 2:17.

24. Israel to have a new language. Isa. 28:11 (The Bible, by means of which God speaks now to Israel, is English not Hebrew).

25. Israel to possess the gates of his enemies. Gen. 22:17.

26. Israel to find the aborigines diminishing before them. Deut. 33:17; Isa. 60:12.

27. Israel to have control of the seas. Deut. 33:19; Num. 24:7; Psa. 89:25; Isa. 60:5 (F. Fenton translates this last, "when rolls up to you all the wealth of the sea". That could not be unless Israel controlled it).

28. Israel to have a new religion (New Covenant.) Heb. 8:10-13; 9:17; Matt. 10:5-7; Luke 1:77; 2:32; 22:20; John 11:49-52; Gal. 3:13.

29. Israel to lose all trace of her lineage. Isa. 42:16-19; Hos. 1:9, 10; 2:6; Rom. 11:25.

30. Israel to keep Sabbath forever (one day in seven set aside). Ex. 31:13, 16, 17; Isa. 58:13, 14.

31. Israel to be called the sons of God (i.e., accept Christianity). Hos. 1:10-11.

32. Israel to be a people saved by the Lord. Deut. 33:27-29; Isa. 41:8-14; 43:1-8;44:1-3;49:25, 26; 52:1-12; 55:3-10, 13; Jer. 46:27, 28; Eze. 34:10-16; Hos. 2:23; 13:9-14; 14:4, 6.

33. Israel to be the custodians of the Oracles (Scriptures) of God. Psa. 147:19, 21; Isa. 59-21.

34. Israel to carry the Gospel to all the world. Gen. 28:14; Isa. 43:10-12 (witnesses), 21; Micah 5:7.

35. Israel to be kind to the poor and set slaves free. Deut. 15:7, 11; Psa. 72:4; Isa. 42:7; 49:9; 58:6.

36. Israel to be the heir of the world. Rom. 4:13.

37. Israel to be God's Glory. Isa. 46:13; 49:3; 60:1, 2.

38. Israel to possess God's Holy Spirit as well as His Word. Isa. 44:3; 59:21; Hagg. 2:5.

39. Israel to be God's Heritage, formed by God, forever. Deut. 4:20; 7:6; 14:2; 2nd Sam. 7:23; 1st Kings 8:51, 53; Isa. 43:21; 54:5-10; Hos. 2:19, 23; Joel 2:27; Micah 7:14 -18.

40. Israel is the nation appointed to bring glory to God. Isa. 41:8-16; 43:10, 21; 44:23; 49:3.

Is Israel Asian? Black?

I think he should call it:

“The Pre-tribber‘s Guide to Predestination and Eternally Conscious Torment: How the Law of Moses is
for Today (Even if You are 1/2 Demon 1/2 Human - But Don't Worry, Be Happy, Because Some Day You
Will Be An Angel... Again!!!)) as Explained by the King James Version of the Bible Only. Volume 1: Why
You’re Going to Hell and I’m Not, According To The White Jesus”

You’ve spent years studying the words, but you wouldn’t even spend a week studying mine. Glad to how you truly feel.

I think he should call it:

“The Pre-tribber‘s Guide to Predestination and Eternally Conscious Torment: How the Law of Moses is
for Today (Even if You are 1/2 Demon 1/2 Human - But Don't Worry, Be Happy, Because Some Day You
Will Be An Angel... Again!!!)) as Explained by the King James Version of the Bible Only. Volume 1: Why
You’re Going to Hell and I’m Not, According To The White Jesus”

I wish you and all the other members well …

19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

 

[romans113336]

Is Israel Asian? Black?

Are you one of those "Saxon = Isaac's Sons" guys?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

1:5 KJV “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”

The answer is YES but it is very hard to prove. Predestination touches on truths in a way that most people cannot fathom nor would be willing to accept, though the Bible is really all about predestination.

It's about - who is forever - and who is not forever. I think that what happened in rebellion sealed many fates; and that people today, as we know them, must just simply live it out; else the below Scriptures do not seem fair:

​

​

John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)

The irony.
That there are some that were to be born into their fate is clear:

​

Jude 4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. KJV

My opinion, drawn from the totality of the Scriptures; and admittedly not able to be documented by any one Scripture alone, as would have been desired; is that certain were fated to work for satan, and certain were destined to work for God; and between these two groups lies the overwhelming majority of people who have choice and free will.
Those that I refer to as satan's, would be the Kenites; and those that I refer to as God's, would be what we (sometimes confusingly) refer to as God's Elect.

​

NOTE: Please do not confuse "God's Elect" with all Christians. And please understand that many times all Christians are referred to as the Elect, but that within that group is a body of individuals that were afore-ordained to work for God.


Many people read the scriptures wherein it mentions "the Elect" and "the Elect Lady," etc., and suppose that this is not speaking of the general body of Christians, but only of a sub-group. This is an error. All Christians are Elect, but there is a sub-group of these Elect that is ordained from before the world began to work the purpose of God. The difficulty is in how to know when it is speaking of the main group or when it is speaking of the sub-group.

The bottom line is that God is fair; and that if there are some "who were before of old ordained to this condemnation", and there are, then it is because of what they did in the rebellion of the First Earth Age. What is the condemnation? Observe as the Master tells us:

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John 3:17-21
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. KJV
Jude 4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. KJV

Ephesians 4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

To arrive at the true meaning of this expression, we must note that there are two words translated "foundation" in the New Testament:

​

(1) themelios, and​

(2) katabole.​

The Noun, themelios,

occurs in Luke 6:48-49, 14:29, Acts 16:26, Romans 15:20,1Corinthians 3:l0-12, Ephesians 2:20, 1Timothy 6:19, 2Timothy 2:19, Hebrews 6:1, 11:10, Revelation 21:14,19. It is never used of the world (kosmos) or the earth (ge). The corresponding Verb (themelioo) occurs in Matthew 7:25, Luke 6:48, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 1:10 and 1Peter 5:10. The verb is only once used of the earth (ge). Hebrews 1:10.​

A comparison of all these passages will show that these are proper and regular terms for the English words "to found", and "foundation".​

The Noun, katabole,

occurs in Matthew 13:35, 25:34, Luke 11:50, John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, Hebrews 4:3, 9:26 , 11:11, 1Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8, 17:8 and the corresponding Verb (kataballo) occurs in 2Corinthians 4:9, Hebrews 6:1 and Revelation 12:10.​

A comparison of all these passages (especially 2Corinthians 4:9and Revelation 12:10) will show that kataballo and katabole are not the proper terms for founding and foundation, but the correct meaning is casting down, or overthrow.​

​

“Consistency, therefore, calls for the same translation in Hebrews 6:1, where, instead of "not laying again", the rendering should be "not casting down". That is to say, the foundation already laid, of repentance, etc., was not to be cast down or overthrown, but was to be left and progress made unto the perfection.
Accordingly, the Noun katabole, derived from, and cognate with the Verb, ought to be translated "disruption", or "ruin".
The remarkable thing is that in all occurrences (except Hebrews 11:11) the word is connected with "the world" (Greek kosmos. Appendix 129.1), and therefore the expression should be rendered "the disruption (or ruin) of the world", clearly referring to the condition indicated in Genesis 1:2, and described in 2Peter 3:5-6. For the earth was not created tohu (Isaiah 45:18) but became so, as stated in the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2and confirmed by 2Peter 3:6, where "the world that then was by the word of God" (Genesis 1:1), perished and "the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word" were created (Genesis 2:4), and are "kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment" (2Peter 3:7) which shall usher in the "new heavens and the new earth" of 2Peter 3:13.
"The disruption of the world" is an event forming a great dividing line in the dispensations of the ages. In Genesis 1:1 we have the founding of the world (Hebrews 1:10 = themelioo), but in Genesis 1:2 we have its overthrow.
This is confirmed by a further remarkable fact, that the phrase, which occurs ten times, is associated with the Preposition apo = from (Appendix 104. iv) seven times, and with pro = before (Appendix 104. xiv) three times. The former refers to the kingdom, and is connected with the "counsels" of God; the latter refers to the Mystery (or Secret; See Appendix 193) and is connected with the "purpose" of God (see John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, 1Peter 1:20).
Ample New Testament testimony is thus given to the profoundly significant fact recorded in Genesis 1:2, that "the earth became tohu and bohu (i.e. waste and desolate); and darkness was on the face of the deep", before the creation of "the heavens and the earth which are now"(2Peter 3:7). “ EW~Bullinger

There are two groups of the elect. Those who God blinded to see the knowledge of Christ's doctrine because they turned to worshiping idols, and those who are the remnant of the election, who have been given the knowledge of Christ's doctrine, and will be a witness of his doctrine until Christ comes back to gather his elect from the four corners of the earth.

The two gates mentioned in Matt 7 convey this truth. The wide gate and broad way being those of the elect that have been blinded to understand Christ's doctrine, and the straight gate and narrow way being the remnant of the elect.

Some Scriptures that supporting this truth are: Isaiah 10:20, Zeph 3:11-13,

Rom 9:26-33. In verse 7 The word "saved" does not reference Eternal deliverance, but references the remnant of Israel being delivered from the false belief that the works of the law can deliver them eternally.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Are you one of those "Saxon = Isaac's Sons" guys?

It doesn’t really matter.