Pre-Trib Objections

[Musicmaster]

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Then where do those who repopulate the earth in the millennium come from if not the Sheep/Goat Judgement??

You're intermixing different elements of all those events and groupings.

Those who are alive on the earth at the second coming of Christ who have not taken the mark of the beat and have placed their faith in Christ and endured unto the end, THEY will become the nations of the Millennial Kingdom. They are not going to receive glorified bodies at that time.

Does that help?

MM

 

[Omegatime]

Post-tribbers don't seem to have picked up in the fact that if the acquisition of all the faithful receiving their glorified bodies immediately before the Millennial Kingdom, both dead and alive, there would no nobody left to have babies in the Millennium, and to grow the nations in population, for we are told that we will be as the angels of Heaven, neither marrying nor given in marriage, and without marriage, there won't be children with Christ on the throne of David.

It's also utterly irrational and anti-biblical to claim that the Lord will put His own body through the torture of His own wrath. His body has already gone through the torture of having taken upon Himself the penalty for our sins, and then to go through that again after He said, "It is FINISHED!"

What part do those people not understand about what He said? The wrath begins at the opening of the very first seal. For those few to claim that the four horsemen are not His wrath, when a fourth of the world's population will be wiped out at their release...it's not business as usual when an entire fourth of the world's population is wiped out under the hooves of just those four horsemen. Good grief, how dense does a thought process have to be to not see such an obvious reality?

8 Billion X 0.25 = 2 Billion (meaning that 2 Billion have perished)

6 Billion X 0.333333 = 2 Billion

See that? Just as many will die in the second half, the GREAT tribulation as will die in the first half, and the first half isn't a measure of His wrath? I would have to crawl up out from under a very large, dark rock to not see the obvious in all that.

4 Billion is one-half of 8 Billion...right?

Hope this math lesson opens some eyes and peels away the scales of falsehoods in the eschatology some of you have been taught by your false teaching pastors and teachers and favorite authors.

This also applies to the mid and pre-wrath gangs. The math opposes your falsehoods.

MM

I would disagree the 1/3 is in the second half of the tribulation

 

[Omegatime]

You're intermixing different elements of all those events and groupings.

Those who are alive on the earth at the second coming of Christ who have not taken the mark of the beat and have placed their faith in Christ and endured unto the end, THEY will become the nations of the Millennial Kingdom. They are not going to receive glorified bodies at that time.

Does that help?

MM

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The Sheep are not saved by faith, they are saved by works!

 

[lrs68]

You know when Jesus arrived to raise Lazarus that during the conversation with Martha she clarified the belief that Lazarus would be raised on the LAST DAY.

The LAST DAY is the SECOND COMING and Jesus never speaks about any coming before the Last Day.

24 Martha said to him, “I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day."

 

[lrs68]

You know when Jesus arrived to raise Lazarus that during the conversation with Martha she clarified the belief that Lazarus would be raised on the LAST DAY.

The LAST DAY is the SECOND COMING and Jesus never speaks about any coming before the Last Day.

24 Martha said to him, “I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day."

As you see Jesus DOESN'T CORRECT her but this verse tells us that the RESURRECTION is on the LAST DAY.

 

[Omegatime]

You know when Jesus arrived to raise Lazarus that during the conversation with Martha she clarified the belief that Lazarus would be raised on the LAST DAY.

The LAST DAY is the SECOND COMING and Jesus never speaks about any coming before the Last Day.

24 Martha said to him, “I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day."

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-Again,you are assuming the last day is what we call the second coming

There is no mention of a resurrection in the sheep/goat Judgement

 

[lrs68]

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-Again,you are assuming the last day is what we call the second coming

There is no mention of a resurrection in the sheep/goat Judgement

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then will appear in heaven sthe sign of the Son of Man, and then tall the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And whe will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from athe four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


End of Tribulation is the Last Day before Millennium.

 

[Omegatime]

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then will appear in heaven sthe sign of the Son of Man, and then tall the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And whe will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from athe four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


End of Tribulation is the Last Day before Millennium.

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Sheep/Goat Judgement

31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations

The Sheep

35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.

Only the living with flesh and blood can do these things!

Not the dead

 

[lrs68]

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Sheep/Goat Judgement

31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations

The Sheep

35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.

Only the living with flesh and blood can do these things!

Not the dead

Martha said Last Day. Who's to say what that day is. But I know Jesus doesn't tell her she's wrong because that's what has been taught since the days of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob.

 

[Omegatime]

Different age. In the millennium everyone will know the Lord. But in the Kingdom age work is required. That is what the Kingdom parables are about.

Age we are in now is saved by Faith in Yeshua/Jesus

But the Day of the Lord begins at the Bowl Judgments.

Last day to be saved by grace is when the Last Trumpet is blown.

 

[Komentaja]

Only the dead who are in Christ, not the OT saints. They will be raised up at the first resurrection at the second coming of Christ.

MM

Just think about this:

"The dead in Christ rise first, then we are raptured. But only those in Christ.......... NOT the OT saints. They will be raised up at the first resurrection. Wait what? So the 2nd resurrection is the first? Those who are in Christ are raised PRIOR to the tribulation and that somehow is not the first resurrection, then after the tribulation theres another resurrection which the Bible calls the FIRST resurrection, and in your system it would be the second.

 

[Komentaja]

Post-tribbers don't seem to have picked up in the fact that if the acquisition of all the faithful receiving their glorified bodies immediately before the Millennial Kingdom, both dead and alive, there would no nobody left to have babies in the Millennium, and to grow the nations in population, for we are told that we will be as the angels of Heaven, neither marrying nor given in marriage, and without marriage, there won't be children with Christ on the throne of David.

It's also utterly irrational and anti-biblical to claim that the Lord will put His own body through the torture of His own wrath. His body has already gone through the torture of having taken upon Himself the penalty for our sins, and then to go through that again after He said, "It is FINISHED!"

What part do those people not understand about what He said? The wrath begins at the opening of the very first seal. For those few to claim that the four horsemen are not His wrath, when a fourth of the world's population will be wiped out at their release...it's not business as usual when an entire fourth of the world's population is wiped out under the hooves of just those four horsemen. Good grief, how dense does a thought process have to be to not see such an obvious reality?

8 Billion X 0.25 = 2 Billion (meaning that 2 Billion have perished)

6 Billion X 0.333333 = 2 Billion

See that? Just as many will die in the second half, the GREAT tribulation as will die in the first half, and the first half isn't a measure of His wrath? I would have to crawl up out from under a very large, dark rock to not see the obvious in all that.

4 Billion is one-half of 8 Billion...right?

Hope this math lesson opens some eyes and peels away the scales of falsehoods in the eschatology some of you have been taught by your false teaching pastors and teachers and favorite authors.

This also applies to the mid and pre-wrath gangs. The math opposes your falsehoods.

MM

Lord will not put His people thru the wrath, its for the unbelievers just like the plagues in Egypt.

The people who populate the millennium kingdom if you believe in one, would be in Zechariah 14: "Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles."

 

[Musicmaster]

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Then where do those who repopulate the earth in the millennium come from if not the Sheep/Goat Judgement??

It is that judgement, yes. That judgement will be held in the Va.ley of thenKings. Those who are of the nations who survive to the second coming of Christ and who had not taken the mark and who were faithful believers in Christ unto the end, they will pass on into the Millenial Kingdom to repopulate the earth. The rest who are not of faithful Israel will be cast into Sheol. Unfortunately, many of that offspring will join with Satan in the end of the Millinium only to be destroyed by Christ. I answered this for you already, and have done so again. Did that help?
MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Just think about this:

"The dead in Christ rise first, then we are raptured. But only those in Christ.......... NOT the OT saints. They will be raised up at the first resurrection. Wait what? So the 2nd resurrection is the first? Those who are in Christ are raised PRIOR to the tribulation and that somehow is not the first resurrection, then after the tribulation theres another resurrection which the Bible calls the FIRST resurrection, and in your system it would be the second.

The terms are important in understanding the distinctions. The harpadzo (the snatching away) is what we call the rapture. The resurrection at the second coming of Christ will literally be a resurrection of ancient Israel to rule the earth with Christ in the millennium. We who are raptured will be taken up into zvenly places. Those resurrected will remain on this earth through the Millennium. See the difference? You may need to read that again to guard against sensationalizing what I said into what I did not say. The snarky tone was not missed by me, if I'm understanding what you wrote and how you stated it all.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I would disagree the 1/3 is in the second half of the tribulation

Then please show us the math. How did I misrepresent anything. Please demonstrate.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

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The Sheep are not saved by faith, they are saved by works!

Yes. Israel are His sheep, not His body. We are His body. The distinction is striking.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

As you see Jesus DOESN'T CORRECT her but this verse tells us that the RESURRECTION is on the LAST DAY.

Yes. The resurrection of Israel, not the harpadzo...the rapture. They are not one and the same.

MM

 

[Komentaja]

The terms are important in understanding the distinctions. The harpadzo (the snatching away) is what we call the rapture. The resurrection at the second coming of Christ will literally be a resurrection of ancient Israel to rule the earth with Christ in the millennium. We who are raptured will be taken up into zvenly places. Those resurrected will remain on this earth through the Millennium. See the difference? You may need to read that again to guard against sensationalizing what I said into what I did not say. The snarky tone was not missed by me, if I'm understanding what you wrote and how you stated it all.

MM

Sorry I didn't mean to be snarky. I apologize for that. My point was that how can that which is second in order be considered the first?

I see what you are getting at. This form of pre-trebbism is logical. If I understood your view correctly, you would say the Church is in heaven during the millennium, and those OT saints who are resurrected in the "first resurrection" are reigning on the earth in order to fulfill the promise made to the patriarchs? (And I assume of course, this includes those who are left behind and martyred and didn't take the mark of the beast, as Rev. 20:4 states)

But could you explain to me the first resurrection, why is it called the first when in your view it is indeed the second in order?

 

[PennEd]

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Then where do those who repopulate the earth in the millennium come from if not the Sheep/Goat Judgement??

Those dudes aren’t populating ANYTHING but Hell.
Matthew 25

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand,‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[Musicmaster]

Sorry I didn't mean to be snarky. I apologize for that. My point was that how can that which is second in order be considered the first?

I see what you are getting at. This form of pre-trebbism is logical. If I understood your view correctly, you would say the Church is in heaven during the millennium, and those OT saints who are resurrected in the "first resurrection" are reigning on the earth in order to fulfill the promise made to the patriarchs? (And I assume of course, this includes those who are left behind and martyred and didn't take the mark of the beast, as Rev. 20:4 states)

But could you explain to me the first resurrection, why is it called the first when in your view it is indeed the second in order?

That's a fair question.

Let's go back to Christ Himself. Was He not the true and genuine first to be resurrected? Was that not the "first resurrection" to have ever taken place? What many people tend to do is get hung up on key words rather than honing in on concepts.

Christ was the first to have ever been resurrected with a glorified body. Now we find ourselves faced with the harpadzo, which is also a resurrection of the dead in Christ into glorified bodies with the living transformed, all into glorified bodies like Christ right before the tribulation. Then, we are told of the resurrection of the faithful from ancient Israel and those of the "everlasting gospel" groupings (from before the cross) in what Paul referred to as the "first resurrection."

So, what you are asking actually hits upon a distinction in destinies. You see, ancient Israel and modern Israel who will comprise the remnant, they will inhabit the earth in the Millenium and upon the new earth in the new Jerusalem. The body of Christ is different in that we will not live upon the earth during the Millennial Kingdom nor upon the new earth within the New Jerusalem. We will dwell in "Heavenly places," as is stated in scripture. This is a very basic breakdown of the conceptual differences in groupings, and that also shows that the "first resurrection" was not and will not be confined to a miniscule point in creation's timeline.

The benefit in distinguising between the first and second resurrections is the "who" within the two groupings. Only the redeemed will be raised up in the first resurrection, which is the meaning behind Paul's stating the blessedness for those who are raised in that conceptual framework. Those raised in the second resurrection will be those who will pass into the second death.

So, getting hung up on words that one tends to define through the filtering lenses of our modern vernaculars and definitions subjectively applied, there ensues confusion and controversy.

I hope this helps your understanding of my statements about scripture. My background as an Israeli sometimes makes it difficult for me to explain complex thoughts and relate it all through my Jewish background.

MM