PRE- MID- POST TRIBULATION.... JESUS RETURN TO EARTH FOR HIS BRIDE!

[Ahwatukee]

I will have to find the time to revisit my thesis and pare it down. There IS a case to be made from scripture. But for now, let me ask this: How could Jesus tell the thief on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise", when He knew He would spend the next 3 days in Hell?

Good day RickyZ,

Who is the post above to. The reason I ask it that I was wondering if it was to me but didn't have the reply message, or that it was to someone on my "ignore" list, which is why I don't see it.

Thanks!

 

[Nehemiah6]

But for now, let me ask this: How could Jesus tell the thief on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise", when He knew He would spend the next 3 days in Hell?

Since there is no punctuation in the Greek text (Stephanus 1550) as written down in the manuscripts, a change of punctuation would give us the correct meaning.

και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω

Paradise is in Heaven. After His resurrection, Christ took all the OT saints (along with the thief on the cross) from Sheol/Hades to Paradise (the New Jerusalem).

 

[Kairos]

When we receive Christ, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. And you others believe that God is still going to pour out his wrath on those who have believed?

The strongs concordance mandatory, helps a lot Tribulation vs Wrath Very different. Tribulation, no big deal.

Tribulation of Revelation 1.9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ was in the isle that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The honor in serving God? Why would you not wish to be a brother and companion in tribulation. All must be tested and overcome. Having overcome and suffered tribulation, Gods Wrath will not come upon you.

 

[Kairos]

The Rich man and Lazarus, there is a wide gulf that can't not be crossed by Hell can see Heaven, that mkes it hell

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

on earth as it is in heavens

 

[Jackson123]

The story of lazareth and the rich man.
They both continued as spirits in the next life. One to a good place. One to a bad place.
Paul said to be absent from the body (dead) is to be present with the Lord (in heaven,with Jesus as declared at the last supper)

At the last judgement all remaining dead are resurrected. "...and the sea gave up her dead"

It is fascinating.

So you believe the spirit of saint not in grave
matt 25 say the graves was open and many body of saint was arose.

It mean the spirit that are not in the grave, back to the grave and make the body that allready bone back to flesh and life.

 

[Jackson123]

Actually, I believe this happens on a sub atomic level, and as matter cannot be created or destroyed (only changed in form), cremation will not be a hindrance to the resurrection.

Most cermation ash are disposed of in the sea and It may spread all over the world.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The strongs concordance mandatory, helps a lot Tribulation vs Wrath Very different. Tribulation, no big deal.

Tribulation of Revelation 1.9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ was in the isle that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The honor in serving God? Why would you not wish to be a brother and companion in tribulation. All must be tested and overcome. Having overcome and suffered tribulation, Gods Wrath will not come upon you.

Hello Kairos,

Yes, I agree with you in that, Jesus said that those who believe in Him would have tribulation. What most fail to take into consideration is that those tribulations are not the wrath of God. God's coming wrath is not the same as the common tribulations which is a result of our faith, but will be an unprecedented time where God will be punishing a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Because Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. By the time the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have completed, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.

In John 14:1-3, Jesus said that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that he would be coming back to take us there. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is the fulfillment of that promise when he comes to gather us. Because God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ, believers must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.

To be clear, the tribulation that you referred to in John 1:9 is speaking about the common tribulation that all in Christ experience because of our faith, which is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God that will take place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, also called the day of the Lord, will be a time of unprecedented plagues of wrath. Since those in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, the Lord will appear and gather us prior to his wrath.

 

[Absolutely]

So you believe the spirit of saint not in grave
matt 25 say the graves was open and many body of saint was arose.

It mean the spirit that are not in the grave, back to the grave and make the body that allready bone back to flesh and life.

A valid point.
I also think about that.
Iow,what is resurrected?

Those that tell a story of resurrection,say they re-entered their bodies.

 

[Absolutely]

Most cermation ash are disposed of in the sea and It may spread all over the world.

Yep
And yet God somehow resurrects them.
Those dying in the sea eaten by creatures are in the same pickle

 

[Kairos]

Hello Kairos,

Yes, I agree with you in that, Jesus said that those who believe in Him would have tribulation. What most fail to take into consideration is that those tribulations are not the wrath of God. God's coming wrath is not the same as the common tribulations which is a result of our faith, but will be an unprecedented time where God will be punishing a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Because Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. By the time the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have completed, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.

In John 14:1-3, Jesus said that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that he would be coming back to take us there. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is the fulfillment of that promise when he comes to gather us. Because God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ, believers must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.

To be clear, the tribulation that you referred to in John 1:9 is speaking about the common tribulation that all in Christ experience because of our faith, which is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God that will take place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, also called the day of the Lord, will be a time of unprecedented plagues of wrath. Since those in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, the Lord will appear and gather us prior to his wrath.

Hello Ahwatukee,

We have a different understanding. My belief a bit more ... Spiritual. The death and destruction seen by many as " physical" . It is death and destruction of souls, he is back to what he did before, by deception. Man of sin doesn't arrive untill after wars he arrives for "peace and safety". God is sending strong delusion, if anyone wants to believe his lies, so be it.
Satan tempted Jesus with same he will tempt us. I give you what you could want, worship me. I am God, I sit in Gods seat telling the world I am God. miracles, prospeerity peace.
The elect don't find deception tempting. Gospel armor protects through the vial and woes. God loves his "Shadrach Meshack and Abednegos and Daniels" why the examples otherwise?
At the end of the hour of tribulation, the 2 dead witness rise, as Jesus king of kings returns Lords Day

2 Thessalon tells clear as day and I took out some of the words

Now we beseech by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, by our gathering together unto him,

ye be not shaken in mind nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be

revealed, the son of perdition, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

We are most different, we for sure will find out soon

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Ahwatukee,

We have a different understanding. My belief a bit more ... Spiritual. The death and destruction seen by many as " physical" . It is death and destruction of souls, he is back to what he did before, by deception.

Good day Kairos,

Understand that the word "destruction" of souls that you're using above, comes from the Greek "apoleia or apollumi" depending on which scripture your reading. And neither of those words imply annihilation or extinction, but instead refer to "cut off, eternal loss of well being, ruination.

2 Thessalon tells clear as day and I took out some of the words

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

The error that many make when reading the scripture above, is that they do not recognize Paul's switch from "the coming our Lord Jesus Christ" to "the Day of the Lord," which is very important. Though closely linked, the coming of our Lord to gather believers takes place first, with the Day of the Lord to follow.

Paul starts off with "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him" which is a blessed event where the entire church, dead and living, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and taken back to the Father's house. In opposition, the "Day of the Lord" is always described as a day of darkness, a day of fierce wrath and anger." By the way just to be clear, the Day of the Lord is not a day in length, but refers to the entire period of God's coming wrath.

In the scripture above, Paul is reassuring the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord, i.e. the time of God's wrath which follows the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, will not take place until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

Also, in the following verses Paul says that the One who is now restraining the man of lawlessness from being revealed will continue to do so until He is taken out of the way, then that man of lawlessness will be revealed. The One who is restraining the man of lawlessness is the Holy Spirit through the indwelling of the church. Consequently, when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, so also will the church be taken out of the way, i.e. caught up. Therefore, the order is as follows:

* The coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him (Restrainer taken out of the way)

* The Day of the Lord when the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed and which begins God's time of wrath

 

[Runningman]

Matthew 24:21-22; 29-31

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
- - -
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Matthew 24:21-22; 29-31

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
- - -
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The gathering of the church vs. the Lords return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events which take place at different times and with different purposes. In fact, those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up, will be with the Lord when He returns to the earth. The scriptures that you've posted above is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and not the gathering of the church.

The gathering of the elect by the angels in verse 31, will be the gathering of the great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire wrath of God. The angels will go throughout the earth and according to the parable of the weeds and wheat, the angels will 'first' gather the weeds/wicked and take them to the area where Armageddon is taking place. This scripture is not referring to the living church being gathered, for believers will be with Christ when He returns riding on white horses.

"Hallelujah!

For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory.

For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.

She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”

The bride is the church, those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up. Then in verse 14, we see the bride wearing her fine linen, white and clean and following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses.

"The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses."

"They (the beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Both of the scriptures above demonstrate that the church will already be heaven. Those called, chosen and faithful followers who are returning with the Lord, will be those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, you would already have to be in heaven.

 

[biker]

Why would the days be shortened for the Elect if the Elect were not going through a time of where life is difficult for all people?

Why would the Elect be Commanded by Christ that when Tribulation ends we are to watch for the signs in sky until Christ returns to gather the Elect?

Why do pre-tribbers use Scripture where if you read a few verses before, you can see Paul is answering their (Thessalonians) question about what the Rapture will be like and when will/if we ever meet our dead loved ones again, not making a claim for pre/mid/post?

And within the Moment of a Twinkling of an Eye, we will be Raptured, Transformed, with Christ (blink your eyes, that fast and we will be Raptured/Transformed/with Christ). Knowing we will be Raptured/Transformed/with Christ in ONE Twinkle of the Eye, why can't we be Raptured and then go immediately to Armageddon? Why is it so DIFFICULT to image 3 things taking place in a Twinkle of an Eye, but some still cannot fathom from there going directly to Armageddon? I am literally baffled by the ignorance and disbelief!

There are 23 hardcore Scriptures dealing with Rapture, and not a single one gives us an indication to the timing of Tribulation. That means to believe anything other than Matthew 24 where Christ claims the Elect will be going through Tribulation, is to be interjecting personal agenda towards Pre and Mid

 

[Ahwatukee]

Why would the days be shortened for the Elect if the Elect were not going through a time of where life is difficult for all people?

Why would the Elect be Commanded by Christ that when Tribulation ends we are to watch for the signs in sky until Christ returns to gather the Elect?

Why do pre-tribbers use Scripture where if you read a few verses before, you can see Paul is answering their (Thessalonians) question about what the Rapture will be like and when will/if we ever meet our dead loved ones again, not making a claim for pre/mid/post?

And within the Moment of a Twinkling of an Eye, we will be Raptured, Transformed, with Christ (blink your eyes, that fast and we will be Raptured/Transformed/with Christ). Knowing we will be Raptured/Transformed/with Christ in ONE Twinkle of the Eye, why can't we be Raptured and then go immediately to Armageddon? Why is it so DIFFICULT to image 3 things taking place in a Twinkle of an Eye, but some still cannot fathom from there going directly to Armageddon? I am literally baffled by the ignorance and disbelief!

Hello Biker!

The answer to your question, is because by the church being transformed in the twinkling of eye when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, would put believers through the entire wrath of God. It would mean that the living church would be put through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which we are not appointed to suffer. That legal precedent that I continue to refer to, is that since God's wrath has already been poured out on Christ, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. And since God's wrath must take place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then believers cannot be on the earth to experience it, otherwise it would be as though Christ had not experienced God's wrath on our behalf.

 

[biker]

Hello Biker!

The answer to your question, is because by the church being transformed in the twinkling of eye when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, would put believers through the entire wrath of God. It would mean that the living church would be put through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which we are not appointed to suffer. That legal precedent that I continue to refer to, is that since God's wrath has already been poured out on Christ, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. And since God's wrath must take place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then believers cannot be on the earth to experience it, otherwise it would be as though Christ had not experienced God's wrath on our behalf.

I don't believe the 7 year Tribulation, no matter how horrific it may be, is the actual "Wrath of God." This is the one time God gives Satan his desire. I believe the slaughtering by Christ at Armageddon and then the eventual Judgement is where the literal "Wrath of God" takes place. We are talking 10 to 15 Billion people being forced into a Lake of Fire to burn for all Eternity. That to me is Wrath being played out on God's end, not a 7 year Tribulation.

 

[biker]

Let's take this from Science's viewpoint:

Estimates of the total number of humans who have ever lived range in the order of 100 billion. It is difficult for estimates to be better than rough approximations, as even modern population estimates are fraught with uncertainties on the order of 3% to 5%. Kapitza (1996) cites estimates ranging between 80 and 150 billion.


They claim 100 Billion humans have walked planet Earth.
Let's entertain they are correct.
On the Day of Judgement, that is probably 90 Billion people being forced into Eternity away from God to burn forever.
That equals WRATH of God!

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't believe the 7 year Tribulation, no matter how horrific it may be, is the actual "Wrath of God." This is the one time God gives Satan his desire. I believe the slaughtering by Christ at Armageddon and then the eventual Judgement is where the literal "Wrath of God" takes place. We are talking 10 to 15 Billion people being forced into a Lake of Fire to burn for all Eternity. That to me is Wrath being played out on God's end, not a 7 year Tribulation.

I agree 100%, two thumbs way up!

Dispensationalism and those that follow and promote the false teaching try desperately to claim the plagues in the tribulation represents Gods wrath?

The reason they Falsely claim this is to lay a false foundation for a pre-trib rapture, as they claim God hasnt appointed the believer to wrath.

I agree 100% God's wrath is seen in his return in fire and final judgement to the eternal lake of fire as seen below.

John 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 16:19KJV
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

 

[Runningman]

The gathering of the church vs. the Lords return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events which take place at different times and with different purposes. In fact, those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up, will be with the Lord when He returns to the earth. The scriptures that you've posted above is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and not the gathering of the church.

The gathering of the elect by the angels in verse 31, will be the gathering of the great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire wrath of God. The angels will go throughout the earth and according to the parable of the weeds and wheat, the angels will 'first' gather the weeds/wicked and take them to the area where Armageddon is taking place. This scripture is not referring to the living church being gathered, for believers will be with Christ when He returns riding on white horses.

"Hallelujah!

For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory.

For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.

She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”

The bride is the church, those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up. Then in verse 14, we see the bride wearing her fine linen, white and clean and following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses.

"The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses."

"They (the beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Both of the scriptures above demonstrate that the church will already be heaven. Those called, chosen and faithful followers who are returning with the Lord, will be those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, you would already have to be in heaven.

None of what you just said undoes what Matthew 24 says. You're making inferences and projection. It's widely accepted that when Jesus returns that's when people get gathered and it's after the tribulation. There just aren't any verses to plainly state the church gets gathered before the tribulation.

I really don't want to see people be angry with God or disillusioned when the pre-trib rapture does not happen. It should also be heavily weighed into consideration that in Jesus's ministry he focused heavily on endurance, not escaping persecution.

Wouldn't Jesus have occasionally said something to ensure his followers that they get to escape pre-trib? He did not ever say such a thing. When he finally mentioned it all he said it would be after the tribulation. You need to really read Matthew 24, slowly, word by word, until you see this. Then the rest of the verses about the second coming of Christ and rapture will be understood to occur, again, after the tribulation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Why would the days be shortened for the Elect if the Elect were not going through a time of where life is difficult for all people?

That is a reference to the elect believing remnant of Israel, not the Church. The Great Tribulation will probably be shortened by about eight months according to Daniel.

Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Dan 8:13,14)

2,300 days = 6.39 years = approximately 6 years, 4 months, and 21 days. The total is 7 years, which then excludes about 8 months.