PRE- MID- POST TRIBULATION.... JESUS RETURN TO EARTH FOR HIS BRIDE!

[dcontroversal]

The Didache, last chapter (early 2nd century): There "shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began. Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and many shall be offended and be lost, but they who endure in their faith shall be saved by the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth. First, the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead: but not all the dead, but as it was said, The Lord shall come, then shall all the world see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven."

The Epistle of Barnabus (early 2nd cent)

The Shepard of Hermas (150 AD)

Justin Martyr (150 AD): "He shall come from Heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob."

Irenaeus (115-202 AD)

Tertullian (160-240 AD)

Lactantius (late 3rd cent, early 4th)

Hippolytus (early 3rd cent)

I'll let you investigate the others I have mentioned, but they all speak the same, the Christians (that is the Church, the Body of Christ) will suffer at the hands of Antichrist.

The (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture was unknown in the Church until the year 1830.

In 1830 Edward Irving was defrocked from the Church of England because his superiors believed that his doctrinal beliefs and preaching on the sinfulness of Christ's nature, was heretical. Irving set up his own church, which he called “The Catholic Apostolic Church,” but which others called “The Irvingites.” In his congregation there was a Scottish girl called Margaret Macdonald; and in one of his services she went into a trance and gave some prophecies. In this trance she said that she saw the people of God going up in the air to meet the Lord. From this “revelation,” Irving preached that the Church would be raptured and miss the great tribulation. Irving went over to the conferences in Ireland at Powerscourt, near Dublin, and preached this doctrine. Ironside, who writes in support of the doctrine of the pretribulation secret rapture of the Church, states that this “blessed doctrine” came to light in the Powerscourt conferences in Ireland in the 1830's. Mr Robert Baxter, a principal leader in this movement, published the doctrine of a secret coming of Christ everywhere he went, and it was quickly received. This view was also adopted by J. N. Darby, and it has been earnestly maintained by many who have studied his writings. Scofield wrote this doctrine into his notes in His Scofield Bible, and Larkin drew some charts; and the doctrine infiltrated into the brethren movement. However, Tregelles, Newton, George Muller, and many others, rejected the revelation and doctrine as unscriptural. They realised that Margaret Macdonald's “revelation,” had brought into the Church a false doctrine, which was previously unknown in Church history, and was a direct contradiction of the Scriptures.

The doctrine, which you believe and are teaching is an evil seed that the Devil put into the Church, the Lord Jesus said it was false prophets who would teach a secret pre-tribulation advent and rapture. Matt 24v23-27.

In 1Tim 1v19,20, we read that Paul delivered Hymenaeus and Alexander to Satan that they might learn not to blaspheme. We learn from 2Tim 2v16-18, that Paul did this because they had overthrown the faith of some Christians, by saying that the resurrection and the second coming of Christ had already taken place. Paul said their wrong doctrine ate like a canker and gangrene, and they died for their dangerous heresy, executed by the operation of God's judgement gifts through Paul. The deaths of Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander, show how serious and dangerous it is to misinterpret prophecy.

You are blatantly teaching lies about the 2nd Coming of Christ, do you think that the Lord Jesus will treat you any differently (than he treated Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander) when your false teaching of the 2nd Coming of Christ overthrows the faith of Christians?

I would give this a double winner if possible.......it is utterly amazing how many have swallowed this fable.....I used to believe it....and I cannot jive the imminent return with scripture in context and an honest evaluation of particular words and events described in scripture.....Even the parable of the wheat and tares has GOD moving against the TARES first before He gathers the wheat into the barn!!

And 2nd Thessalonians 2 is clear....before the body presence and OUR GATHERING the BEAST must be on the scene claiming to be God and worshiped as God....

 

[UnderGrace]

The (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture was unknown in the Church until the year 1830.

True and yet now it is ubiquitous.

 

[azamzimtoti]

True and yet now it is ubiquitous.

That's easy for u to say

 

[Ahwatukee]

The Didache, last chapter (early 2nd century): There "shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began. Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and many shall be offended and be lost, but they who endure in their faith shall be saved by the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth. First, the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead: but not all the dead, but as it was said, The Lord shall come, then shall all the world see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven."

The Epistle of Barnabus (early 2nd cent)

The Shepard of Hermas (150 AD)

Justin Martyr (150 AD): "He shall come from Heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob."

Irenaeus (115-202 AD)

Tertullian (160-240 AD)

Lactantius (late 3rd cent, early 4th)

Hippolytus (early 3rd cent)

I'll let you investigate the others I have mentioned, but they all speak the same, the Christians (that is the Church, the Body of Christ) will suffer at the hands of Antichrist.

The (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture was unknown in the Church until the year 1830.

In 1830 Edward Irving was defrocked from the Church of England because his superiors believed that his doctrinal beliefs and preaching on the sinfulness of Christ's nature, was heretical. Irving set up his own church, which he called “The Catholic Apostolic Church,” but which others called “The Irvingites.” In his congregation there was a Scottish girl called Margaret Macdonald; and in one of his services she went into a trance and gave some prophecies. In this trance she said that she saw the people of God going up in the air to meet the Lord. From this “revelation,” Irving preached that the Church would be raptured and miss the great tribulation. Irving went over to the conferences in Ireland at Powerscourt, near Dublin, and preached this doctrine. Ironside, who writes in support of the doctrine of the pretribulation secret rapture of the Church, states that this “blessed doctrine” came to light in the Powerscourt conferences in Ireland in the 1830's. Mr Robert Baxter, a principal leader in this movement, published the doctrine of a secret coming of Christ everywhere he went, and it was quickly received. This view was also adopted by J. N. Darby, and it has been earnestly maintained by many who have studied his writings. Scofield wrote this doctrine into his notes in His Scofield Bible, and Larkin drew some charts; and the doctrine infiltrated into the brethren movement. However, Tregelles, Newton, George Muller, and many others, rejected the revelation and doctrine as unscriptural. They realised that Margaret Macdonald's “revelation,” had brought into the Church a false doctrine, which was previously unknown in Church history, and was a direct contradiction of the Scriptures.

The doctrine, which you believe and are teaching is an evil seed that the Devil put into the Church, the Lord Jesus said it was false prophets who would teach a secret pre-tribulation advent and rapture. Matt 24v23-27.

In 1Tim 1v19,20, we read that Paul delivered Hymenaeus and Alexander to Satan that they might learn not to blaspheme. We learn from 2Tim 2v16-18, that Paul did this because they had overthrown the faith of some Christians, by saying that the resurrection and the second coming of Christ had already taken place. Paul said their wrong doctrine ate like a canker and gangrene, and they died for their dangerous heresy, executed by the operation of God's judgement gifts through Paul. The deaths of Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander, show how serious and dangerous it is to misinterpret prophecy.

You are blatantly teaching lies about the 2nd Coming of Christ, do you think that the Lord Jesus will treat you any differently (than he treated Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander) when your false teaching of the 2nd Coming of Christ overthrows the faith of Christians?

The teaching regarding the pretribulation gathering of the church has nothing to do with Macdonald, Baxter, Darby or anyone else. You are just repeating preexisting apologetics.

I have never read anything by any of those mentioned above, but through the full understanding of the scriptures, I know that the church will be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

When we receive Christ, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. And you others believe that God is still going to pour out his wrath on those who have believed?

This misunderstanding of the chronological order of when the Lord appears to gather His church, is because of the lack of understanding of the principal that Christ already suffered the wrath of God that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely. Consequently, the wrath of God no longer rests upon those who are in Christ.

Another misunderstanding is that, those who think that God is going to protect the church through His coming wrath, have not done a detailed study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is how God going to pour His wrath.

Jesus promise in John 14:1-3 that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for all believers and that He will be coming back to take gather us so that where He is we can be also, will take place before His wrath upon this earth. For by the time He comes back to the earth to end the age, the majority of the population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.

Paul, after giving a detailed message in I Thessalonians 4:13-17 of the resurrection and catching away said, "therefore comfort each other with these words." Consequently, if that event was to take place after God's wrath, then there would be nothing to comfort each other about. For you and others would have us suffer God's entire wrath right along with the wicked. Also Paul in writing Titus, called the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him as "the blessed hope." Again, if the Lord is to gather believers after God's wrath has been poured out, then there would be no blessed hope.

If anything is a false teaching, it is the claim that Jesus is going to first put His bride through His wrath and then come and get her. By the way, unlike Hymenaeus and Philetus who were claiming that the resurrection had already taken place, we are not claiming that it has already taken place, but that it is going to take place prior to God's wrath and that because scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer it. In addition, Jesus promised us that he would keep those who endure patiently out of that time of wrath (Rev.3:10)

 

[garee]

The teaching regarding the pretribulation gathering of the church has nothing to do with Macdonald, Baxter, Darby or anyone else. You are just repeating preexisting apologetics.

I have never read anything by any of those mentioned above, but through the full understanding of the scriptures, I know that the church will be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

When we receive Christ, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. And you others believe that God is still going to pour out his wrath on those who have believed?

This misunderstanding of the chronological order of when the Lord appears to gather His church, is because of the lack of understanding of the principal that Christ already suffered the wrath of God that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely. Consequently, the wrath of God no longer rests upon those who are in Christ.

Another misunderstanding is that, those who think that God is going to protect the church through His coming wrath, have not done a detailed study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is how God going to pour His wrath.

Jesus promise in John 14:1-3 that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for all believers and that He will be coming back to take gather us so that where He is we can be also, will take place before His wrath upon this earth. For by the time He comes back to the earth to end the age, the majority of the population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.

Paul, after giving a detailed message in I Thessalonians 4:13-17 of the resurrection and catching away said, "therefore comfort each other with these words." Consequently, if that event was to take place after God's wrath, then there would be nothing to comfort each other about. For you and others would have us suffer God's entire wrath right along with the wicked. Also Paul in writing Titus, called the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him as "the blessed hope." Again, if the Lord is to gather believers after God's wrath has been poured out, then there would be no blessed hope.

If anything is a false teaching, it is the claim that Jesus is going to first put His bride through His wrath and then come and get her. By the way, unlike Hymenaeus and Philetus who were claiming that the resurrection had already taken place, we are not claiming that it has already taken place, but that it is going to take place prior to God's wrath and that because scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer it. In addition, Jesus promised us that he would keep those who endure patiently out of that time of wrath (Rev.3:10)

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven. . decaying corrupted bodies are dying . Christians will not go through the final wrath. . . never to rise to new incorruptible spirit life ever again. . . The believer will rise on that last day. . . being clothed with the righteousness of Christ, the Sun and Moon under her feet .Its the end of time , the chaste virgin bride's veil is lifted . no more darkness no more night

 

[cv5]

The Didache, last chapter (early 2nd century): There "shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began. Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and many shall be offended and be lost, but they who endure in their faith shall be saved by the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth. First, the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead: but not all the dead, but as it was said, The Lord shall come, then shall all the world see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven."

The Epistle of Barnabus (early 2nd cent)

The Shepard of Hermas (150 AD)

Justin Martyr (150 AD): "He shall come from Heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob."

Irenaeus (115-202 AD)

Tertullian (160-240 AD)

Lactantius (late 3rd cent, early 4th)

Hippolytus (early 3rd cent)

I'll let you investigate the others I have mentioned, but they all speak the same, the Christians (that is the Church, the Body of Christ) will suffer at the hands of Antichrist.

The (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture was unknown in the Church until the year 1830.

In 1830 Edward Irving was defrocked from the Church of England because his superiors believed that his doctrinal beliefs and preaching on the sinfulness of Christ's nature, was heretical. Irving set up his own church, which he called “The Catholic Apostolic Church,” but which others called “The Irvingites.” In his congregation there was a Scottish girl called Margaret Macdonald; and in one of his services she went into a trance and gave some prophecies. In this trance she said that she saw the people of God going up in the air to meet the Lord. From this “revelation,” Irving preached that the Church would be raptured and miss the great tribulation. Irving went over to the conferences in Ireland at Powerscourt, near Dublin, and preached this doctrine. Ironside, who writes in support of the doctrine of the pretribulation secret rapture of the Church, states that this “blessed doctrine” came to light in the Powerscourt conferences in Ireland in the 1830's. Mr Robert Baxter, a principal leader in this movement, published the doctrine of a secret coming of Christ everywhere he went, and it was quickly received. This view was also adopted by J. N. Darby, and it has been earnestly maintained by many who have studied his writings. Scofield wrote this doctrine into his notes in His Scofield Bible, and Larkin drew some charts; and the doctrine infiltrated into the brethren movement. However, Tregelles, Newton, George Muller, and many others, rejected the revelation and doctrine as unscriptural. They realised that Margaret Macdonald's “revelation,” had brought into the Church a false doctrine, which was previously unknown in Church history, and was a direct contradiction of the Scriptures.

The doctrine, which you believe and are teaching is an evil seed that the Devil put into the Church, the Lord Jesus said it was false prophets who would teach a secret pre-tribulation advent and rapture. Matt 24v23-27.

In 1Tim 1v19,20, we read that Paul delivered Hymenaeus and Alexander to Satan that they might learn not to blaspheme. We learn from 2Tim 2v16-18, that Paul did this because they had overthrown the faith of some Christians, by saying that the resurrection and the second coming of Christ had already taken place. Paul said their wrong doctrine ate like a canker and gangrene, and they died for their dangerous heresy, executed by the operation of God's judgement gifts through Paul. The deaths of Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander, show how serious and dangerous it is to misinterpret prophecy.

You are blatantly teaching lies about the 2nd Coming of Christ, do you think that the Lord Jesus will treat you any differently (than he treated Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander) when your false teaching of the 2nd Coming of Christ overthrows the faith of Christians?

None of this answers the question of why ONLY JEWS preach during the GT.
And why the Church is nowhere mentioned after Rev Ch 3. In fact the transition is very clear...

Rev Ch 4:1

"After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”"

The Blessed Hope is what we anticipate. Not fiery judgment during the GT.

 

[Absolutely]

You are ill-informed, it never was (the early church fathers all expected to suffer at the hands of Antichrist) and never will be!

That is false

 

[garee]

None of this answers the question of why ONLY JEWS preach during the GT.
And why the Church is nowhere mentioned after Rev Ch 3. In fact the transition is very clear...

Rev Ch 4:1

"After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”"

The Blessed Hope is what we anticipate. Not fiery judgment during the GT.

Where did the idea of a missing church (millions) originate from...?

 

[Absolutely]

The disclaimer is so effective I am sure.

I am sure I can name more than one.

Chuck Missler’s Cosmic Codes: Hidden Messages from the Edge of Eternity is a 535-page textbook for the Koinonia Institute Bible Course, BTE 620: Introduction to Biblical Cryptology.

What characteristics would an extraterrestrial communication require? How would we recognize an extraterrestrial message if we encountered one?...
Microcodes ("jots and tittles"), Macrocodes (strategic anticipatory structures) and Metacodes (beyond the boundaries of physical reality) are explored.
...It will however, be of paramount importance to first 'blindfold your prejudices' and presuppositions."[xvi] [Bold emphases added]

source

Secret knowledge (esoteric knowledge) is not biblical

Isa 45:19 "I have not spoken in secret, In some dark land; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, 'Seek Me in a waste place'; I, the LORD, speak righteousness, Declaring things that are upright.”

I almost wonder if the witch pulling up Samuel was inserted by the Holy Spirit exclusively to muddy up those that put doctrine ahead of revelation.

Was it evil or good?

Missler digs. Presents his findings. Leaves it to the listener to take a position

He is tough to malighn personally.
His form of teaching is neutral,in that he EMPLORES ALL to do their own research.

That ingredient sets him above the vast array of teachers.
He was one awesome man of God.

Typology and parrables carry hidden knowledge.

Jesus hid knowledge.
The nerve of that Jesus.

 

[Absolutely]

None of this answers the question of why ONLY JEWS preach during the GT.
And why the Church is nowhere mentioned after Rev Ch 3. In fact the transition is very clear...

Rev Ch 4:1

"After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”"

The Blessed Hope is what we anticipate. Not fiery judgment during the GT.

It is actually angels preaching the gospel close to the end of the gt.(rev 14)

Rev 14 carries several game changers.
Angels preaching
Angels blessing martyrdom
Gathering of 2 jewish groups.

The reason martyrdom is promoted is because no more "alive" ones enter heaven.

This is yet another reason WHY a postrib resurrection of martyred saints is not biblical. (Rev 20 only depicts those martyred DURING the gt and frames the 1st resurrection against the second death. It does not frame those beheaded as a post trib resurrection.)

Certain translations ERRONEOUSLY incorporated the necessary modifications to lead the reader into a false post trib resurrection belief.

I wonder why?
Agenda...that's why

 

[Absolutely]

Which ones and what did they say.
Direct quotes would help.

Postrib dribble.
The catholics burned both the writings and writers of the pretrib doctrine.
A few survived.
Google it
Not many postribs invoke the early church belief mess any more. They get embarrassed.

To top it off,israel becoming a nation changed eschatology forever.
(The early church had no israel after ad 70)
So to invoke a skewed viewpoint is about as rediculous as working on an appliance with the cord plugged in.

Eventually reality sets in.

 

[Absolutely]

Good day cv5,

Yes, you are correct in that, there is no way for us to know how much time there will be from the time that the church is gathered until the antichrist is revealed. However, my own feeling on this is that these events will be in close proximity to one another. My thinking is that the removal of the church which is synonymous with the Restrainer being taken out of the way, would be a perfect time for the man of lawlessness to emerge. He might even come up with some false reason as to what happened to everyone. With the restraining force of the Holy Spirit working through the church removed from the earth, the full force of sin and the man of sin will be revealed and I don't think that there will be much of a hesitation.

The church could be raptured weeks or months after being rounded up by the ac. It would still be pretrib.

I am about 50/50 on this,but i can just see those postribs ripping on us "See?,see?, where is your little rapture mess now????" Then wham! The wise virgins ascend to meet Jesus.They get the fruit of their investment.
One to the groom,the other to the guy on a white horse

 

[Absolutely]

True and yet now it is ubiquitous.

Only a few with partial verses and study still belive as you guys.

 

[garee]

I almost wonder if the witch pulling up Samuel was inserted by the Holy Spirit exclusively to muddy up those that put doctrine ahead of revelation.

Was it evil or good?

Missler digs. Presents his findings. Leaves it to the listener to take a position

He is tough to malighn personally.
His form of teaching is neutral,in that he EMPLORES ALL to do their own research.

That ingredient sets him above the vast array of teachers.
He was one awesome man of God.

Typology and parrables carry hidden knowledge.

Jesus hid knowledge.
The nerve of that Jesus.

LOL How dare him bring prophecy..... through parables .

The witch the sister of lies pulled up a strong delusion ...not Samuel . His dead body had become impossible to raise. She saw gods (a legion) and needed some information.... What form is he of ? from the pits of hell to give the illusion .

1 Samuel 28:12-14 King James Version (KJV) And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself

Sent him a strong delusion so he could maintain the lie. Fell to the ground to indicate blasphemy .The violating of the first commandment . "Thou shall have no other gods before our living God, Christ Jesus".. Not a legion of gods looking for a face image to put on .

Luke 8:30And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

jb said:
Post-Tribulation!
Matt 24v29-31: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."
2Thess 2v1-8: "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."

.

First of all, by leaving out verse 2 in the scripture above, you have left out very important information. Below is the actual scripture:
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day (the day of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

It is "the day of the Lord" that Paul is referring to in the scripture as "that day," which is referring to the time of God's wrath and which follows our being gathered to the Lord. By leaving out verse 2, you make "that day" as referring to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him." If you will do a study on "the day of the Lord" you will find out that it is always referred to as a day of darkness, of black clouds, a day of wrath and fierce anger. In opposition, "the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him will be a blessed event.

The reason that I bring this up is because, "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him" takes place first and is then followed by the "day of the Lord" which is the time of God's wrath. Therefore Paul is saying "don't let anyone deceive you for that day (the time of God's wrath) will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
Our being gathered to Christ takes place first, which is then followed by the day of the Lord, which is when the man of lawlessness will be revealed and God's wrath will begin to be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

I fairly agree with this explanation given in response to what "jb" said.

Verse 2 is often bypassed [skipped back over] when ppl are explaining what they think v.3 is referring to (when they see "that day" v.3, they skip completely back over [the Subject of] v.2 in order to grab v.1 as the Subject that v.3 is referring to as "that day," but that is not what verse 3's "that day" is referring to [and is grammatically incorrect to do], but instead is referring to the immediately preceding verse/Subject, "the Day of the Lord"--the time period that the Thessalonians were wrongly being convinced "IS PRESENT" [perfect indicative] and were distraught over, thinking [or at least at risk of being distraught over, this being wrongly convinced of such]).

This is such a common misunderstanding of this passage (to incorrectly label what "that day" is referring to in v.3 [misapplication], and to mis-define the arrival of "the DOTL" to be at Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth, rather than to the earlier arrival-point-in-time of "the man of sin" which is when it STARTS/arrives, instead).

"The Day of the Lord" time period's ARRIVAL is at the same time as "the man of sin's" arrival at the START of the DOTL time period (aka "SEAL #1 [Rev6], aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR (<--whereas Jesus had used the "plural" of this very word); so 1Th5:2-3; and Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" [<---the first of many more that follow on from here]; and 2Th2:9a [<---Dan9:27a(26)-"for one week [7-yrs]"], and 2Th2:7b-8a [parallel to the phrasing of Lam2:3-4]; etc).
Our Rapture/Departure precedes this [that is, precedes the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period with its "man of sin" and all he will DO over the course of those 7-yrs that lead UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom]. I would write more, but this is sufficient for now, to offer my position in response to the OP's main question (hopefully it is succinct enough).

 

[garee]

Postrib dribble.
The catholics burned both the writings and writers of the pretrib doctrine.
A few survived.
Google it
Not many postribs invoke the early church belief mess any more. They get embarrassed.

To top it off,israel becoming a nation changed eschatology forever.
(The early church had no israel after ad 70)
So to invoke a skewed viewpoint is about as rediculous as working on an appliance with the cord plugged in.

Eventually reality sets in.

It would seem many ignored the meaning of words that formed the doctrines of God. Like the word Israel. A word when defined that would seem to give the idea of he who wrestles with flesh and blood as in natural man. . no faith, no vision from God . . . . and with the Spirit and overcomes by a work of the Spirit. . . that works in the new creature to both will and perform the good pleasure of God.

Many have turned the word into the flesh of a outward Jew. The new name Israel would represent the chaste virgin bride of Christ. Before conversion God named Jacob the deceiver to represent mankind that does wrestles against flesh and blood. Having no faith by which they could believe God our helper our Emanuel.

It would seem he lovingly commands us not to wrestles against flesh and blood because he has equipped us to do so. Jacob's have no vision other than their own . A strand of three is not easily broken

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God "face to face", and my life is preserved. And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh.Geneisis32:24-31

The gospel. No unconverted man could see the face of God and live unless God our Emanuel is with them


Exodus 33:20

And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

cv5 said:
"Since we have not yet seen the revealing of the antichrist, then the first seal could not have possibly been opened yet."

That is my understanding as well. Furthermore, there is not way to discern the possibility of a gap in time between the Harpazo and the revealing of the man of sin. It could be months, it could be decades.

Good day cv5,

Yes, you are correct in that, there is no way for us to know how much time there will be from the time that the church is gathered until the antichrist is revealed. However, my own feeling on this is that these events will be in close proximity to one another. My thinking is that the removal of the church which is synonymous with the Restrainer being taken out of the way, would be a perfect time for the man of lawlessness to emerge. […]

My understanding is (yes, "the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed..." [equivalent to the removal of "the Church which is His body" and the HS no longer "restraining"]) that the "AND THEN [kai tote]" always seems to be used (in Scripture) to refer to "no substantial interval of time between [two happenings]," or like, "consequently," or "then-following"... IOW, pretty much lock-step with one following after the other, time-wise. (...the "man of sin be revealed" is at the START of the 7-yr period, not its middle, nor its end--2Th2 is covering all 7-yrs, just as Dan9:27a[26] is!... Our Rapture immediately precedes this, per this "AND THEN [kai tote]".)

 

[UnderGrace]

I almost wonder if the witch pulling up Samuel was inserted by the Holy Spirit exclusively to muddy up those that put doctrine ahead of revelation.

Was it evil or good?

Missler digs. Presents his findings. Leaves it to the listener to take a position

He is tough to malighn personally.
His form of teaching is neutral,in that he EMPLORES ALL to do their own research.

That ingredient sets him above the vast array of teachers.
He was one awesome man of God.

Typology and parrables carry hidden knowledge.

Jesus hid knowledge.
The nerve of that Jesus.

He hid knowledge only for a time and for a purpose.
Secret knowledge is for the privileged only, that is not biblical.
There are no secret bible codes.

Luke 8:17
17 For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

I wonder how many actually, across the land, did their own research on what he put forth on bible codes and the nephilim.

 

[garee]

cv5 said:
"Since we have not yet seen the revealing of the antichrist, then the first seal could not have possibly been opened yet."

I would think the father of lies. . . the spirit(singular) of the anti-christs (many) would love men as a false source of faith looking for a form to put a face on the father of lies and fill his shoe . Is it this man or that ? What will he look like? From where does he come from ? . .while blinding minds he continues to do the unseen work moving men according to his lies.

The Holy Spirit has revealed him in a warning (1 John 2:27 -28) and shows us as a example the work doing what is normal for the god of this world deceiving men.. Peter to show working the works of the anti christ . . . . another mediator between god and man. Satan.

Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy attempting to make the gospel without effect

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Mathew 16:22-23

Beware of the things of mankind...….no need to put a face on it. . . it is revealed for what it is. the spirit of lies .

We do not wrestles Against the flesh and blood.

Many soon after made Peter their Pope as the one that the gates of hell could never prevail against .Christ the gospel key locked them into a bottomless pit and loosed Peter the denier again .

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I wonder how many actually, across the land, did their own research on what he put forth on bible codes and the nephilim.

I haven't investigated fully what he taught on these, but (back when I became aware if it, generally speaking) I did do a study of what Scripture presents, and I agree with you that Genesis 6 (and Job 1&2) is speaking about "humans". (I think I recall you said that, earlier in this thread. Forgive me if I've misrepresented your viewpoint on this. This thread has gone faster than I've been able to keep up with, of late. )