Poll: Do "One Taken/Other Left" Verses Refer To Secret Rapture or Second Coming?
- Thread starter Phoneman-777
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No Michael Isnt Jesus Christ, As False Prophetess Ellen G. White and 7th Day Adventis Teach,
When was this supposed divine revelation given to Ellen, in her claimed 2,000+ visions and dreams?
When was this supposed divine revelation given to Ellen, in her claimed 2,000+ visions and dreams?
Don't you care that anyone can go online and find out that over 300 years before the Adventist church existed, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and many others taught that Michael the Archangel was Jesus in the OT?
Great job, Captain Obvious Of course it's not explicitly stated, but Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon, Adam Clarke, Matthew Henry, and lotsa other Christians believed the Archangel Michael was Jesus based on plenty of Biblical evidence. If you don't wanna believe it, that's your business, but if you're going to deny it, at least offer up reasons for why it's not so.
Of course it's not explicitly stated, but Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon, Adam Clarke, Matthew Henry, and lotsa other Christians believed the Archangel Michael was Jesus based on plenty of Biblical evidence. If you don't wanna believe it, that's your business, but if you're going to deny it, at least offer up reasons for why it's not so.-
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Your pretty handy at using reformers names, and running from their claimed quotes.
Post their quotes and your sources used of these reformers, waiting?
Post their quotes and your sources used of these reformers, waiting?
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Thomas Manton, a famous Puritan, entertained the idea of Jesus being Michael because Michael means "Who is like God" (think statement, not question) and because Michael was over Israel. This does not mean Jesus was created, and the phrase Archangel would only mean the untreated Messenger Above All Messengers. Although, might I correct you that not all believed the idea but some, including Henry, merely entertained it.
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The "Boss" of the angels is God Almighty, not other angels:
Matthew 13:41 KJV "...the Son of Man shall send forth His angels..."
Matthew 16:27 KJV "...the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels..."
And Who was it that fought against the dragon with His angels? Michael the Archangel which means "The One Like God Who Rules Over The Angels" -- Jesus Who manifested Himself as an angel and took the name "Michael" before He manifested Himself as a man and took the name "Jesus".
Matthew 13:41 KJV "...the Son of Man shall send forth His angels..."
Matthew 16:27 KJV "...the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels..."
And Who was it that fought against the dragon with His angels? Michael the Archangel which means "The One Like God Who Rules Over The Angels" -- Jesus Who manifested Himself as an angel and took the name "Michael" before He manifested Himself as a man and took the name "Jesus".
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Well, when the disciples asked Jesus "where (are they taken), Lord?", His reply was "where the buzzards are gathered..." which means the taken ones are carcasses on the ground...
...just like the wicked Antediluvians didn't even know they were already lost after God closed the Ark door and for seven days more days they mocked Noah..."and knew not until the Flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming ofthe Son of Man be."
...just like the wicked Antediluvians didn't even know they were already lost after God closed the Ark door and for seven days more days they mocked Noah..."and knew not until the Flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming ofthe Son of Man be."
No, Christ didn't take those people there. Christ takes the raptured saints there as the army that follows Christ and they watch him slay the Beast's army.
You need to study deeper into the Greek words used for the one taken and one left since you have them backwards. I mean it's pretty obvious even in the English with the raptured saints being literally TAKEN up to the clouds before anyone is LEFT on Earth for punishment and death. No surprise that matches the story of Lot where an angel took Lot and his family away from the cities to a place of safety and all those LEFT back in those cities died.
taken
3880
3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}
from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v
AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50
1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)
"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"
That's not the one who dies obviously.
You need to study deeper into the Greek words used for the one taken and one left since you have them backwards. I mean it's pretty obvious even in the English with the raptured saints being literally TAKEN up to the clouds before anyone is LEFT on Earth for punishment and death. No surprise that matches the story of Lot where an angel took Lot and his family away from the cities to a place of safety and all those LEFT back in those cities died.
taken
3880
3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}
from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v
AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50
1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)
"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"
That's not the one who dies obviously.
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Amen amen, the belief was not held by ALL Reformers, but many notable ones held it like Adam Clarke, the famous Methodist commentator, who also believed it to be the case, as did Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon, a whole host of others.
If we must, then most certainly it is true that God "condescends to men of low estate" as when a smiling father bends down low to his toddler child. I really don't see the crime in saying along with those great Christian men that the pre-incarnate Jesus took the form of an angel so He Who is high above all His creation might be better understood by His creatures. In doing so, He yet remained the uncreated, everlasting to everlasting Almighty God in the highest sense of the word.
If we must, then most certainly it is true that God "condescends to men of low estate" as when a smiling father bends down low to his toddler child. I really don't see the crime in saying along with those great Christian men that the pre-incarnate Jesus took the form of an angel so He Who is high above all His creation might be better understood by His creatures. In doing so, He yet remained the uncreated, everlasting to everlasting Almighty God in the highest sense of the word.
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