Plea not to receive mark of the beast because of waiting for rapture

Truth7t7 · Nov 17, 2020

A Pre-Trib rapture is the (Major) teaching within dispensationalism, it appears your understanding in the subject of eschatology is very shallow,as you try to disregard this teaching as secondary to dispensationalism, Smiles!

The scripture presented below, destroys the claim of a pre-trib rapture seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17

Dispensationalism's Pre-Trib Rapture Is A Lie!

The main scripture used by supporters of this teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming)(Last Day) resurrection

Is a resurrection of the believer seen below in 1 Thess 4:15-17 100% yes

Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught, 100% yes

Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught 100% yes

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Absolutely · Nov 17, 2020

bluto said:

Ok. Forgive me.
I like that approach.

Now which of your 4 points has traction outside the pretrib rapture verses?(I dont believe they do,but work in your circles via omission of my verses)

Just saying "go back to my 4 points" over and over is not a discussion.

It is a my way or the highway attitude.

Truth7t7 · Nov 17, 2020

Absolutely said:

Pot, Kettle, Black

Blain · Nov 17, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

Clearly you don't understand what dispensationalism is, dispensationalism is the belief that we are to rightly divide the word of God that is the word of God the whole bible not a specific subject, understanding the seperation of a certain time in which something is being spoken and to whom and what generation they are speaking to for and of understanding and noticing the distinction in the bible
You have yet to give any evidence of this being a lie and that is what I wanted to know, and you know I may not be the best at understanding bible prophecy but it is something I am well versed in I study it out of fascination and I see past the first layer within the word of God I don't see mere words written I see a huge painting or a huge poetic story from what I have seen you see bible prophecy through your own eyes and your own beliefs and views you don't see the entire picture and fail to look past the actual words you miss the deeper meaning

All I am asking is for you to show me the evidence that my understanding of rightly dividing the word is a lie if you are unable to then I suppose that means I am in the right for my thinking because I can give evidence for mine can you?

Truth7t7 · Nov 17, 2020

Blain said:

Your understanding of eschatology is shallow, perhaps you need to study the foundations of (Dispensationalism) then get back to me

Wikipedia: John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[1] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]

calibob · Nov 17, 2020

Blain said:

This is getting tiresome it would be as if I were trying to enforce my belief that; After we reach the age of spiritual accountability we must confirm that we are born again by getting baptized, or rebaptized if we were as children. Actually I believe that should, should replace the word must to be accurate. I'm sure you understand the point I'm making though.

I believe that quarrelling over doctrine leads to sin, I've left churches for this very reason. If I were an unbeliever this kind of behavior would turn me away very quickly. I came from a home where quarreling never ended. I think that it's very unbecoming so I think it should be curbed for the sake of the 540 non members that are viewing this site right now,

Blain · Nov 17, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

I don't need a wikipedia description of who started it I need evidence of why it is a lie

Tell me what you think this verse is saying
New King James Version
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
In other versions it is describe as accurately handling the word of truth and also speaks of how people will twist the word of God going away fro a clear cut path in the word of God
Any writer knows how basic communication works and the tone of something the context the placement of words and where they are spoken this greatly affects anything being spoken it can easily give a misunderstanding of what is being spoken

Blain · Nov 17, 2020

calibob said:

Yes you are absolutely right 2 timothy also speaks of avoiding mindless chatter and aruments when it comes to this I suppose Paul knew this would occur when talking about Rightly dividing the word, and I know that he is not going to listen to anything I say so there really is no point anymore debates can be good in growth and learning and sharpening our iron but when it just becomes pointless arguments that debate has lost it's value

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 17, 2020

bluto said:

In this post, my aim is to address your four questions in Post #50 (page 3) of this thread... my apologies for the length:

The disciples ask Him this question BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50... when the angels will REAP (this is not what occurs at "our Rapture" point in time... and in fact a cpl of those Matt13 verses show the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE from that which will occur at "our Rapture" event).

Again, you are reading "the Church which is His body" (US) *INTO* that passage... but Matthew 24 (and even "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" there / PARALLEL [equal to] "the SEALS" of Rev6!) is what FOLLOWS "our Rapture"

EVERYTHING in Matt24-25 is what FOLLOWS "our Rapture," Jesus is not covering that Subject ('our Rapture') in the Olivet DIscourse, at all.

Verse 7 states (choppy, below, but to show the correlations):

"...rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels,
in flaming fire...
--[see Lam2:3 ("in flaming fire" and parallel to a verse in 2Th2:7b-8a I've pointed out in past posts),
--and Heb1:7 "And of the angels He saith, Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire"
--and Rev1:14,2:18,19:12 "His eyes are as"]
...INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON [note "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (Lk18:8)--same time-period as Rev1:1's "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" speaks of (1:1/1:19c/4:1 re: the FUTURE aspects of the Book of Rev--See also this phrase (bolded) in Rom16:20 ["IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... not speaking of the "NOW" aspect, like Rev2-3 is speaking of... but of the 1:1/1:19c/4:1 time-period which FOLLOWS the "NOW" aspect, see])
those who... [and... 'who SHALL BE [future tense, to the time-period under Paul's immediate Subject]...']".

The idea of "GIVE/RECEIVE" rest/repose, is not in the text... it just says, "...rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His holy angels, in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those who..." (and this speaks of a period-of-time of judgments, i.e. Trumpets, Vials, et al... angels clearly assisting in those tasks, right?

"The Day of the Lord" is [both] "a period of time of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth" [FOLLOWED BY] AND "a period-of-time of BLESSINGs on the earth"... "the DOTL" = BOTH OF THESE ASPECTS [it is not MERELY 'a singular 24-hr day'])

I had listed the 10 passages [re: Jesus] where "[passive] APPEAR" is used... and then I pointed out how Heb9:28 says:

--"a second time apart from sin [the sin issue] shall appear"
(noting the FIRST time this happened, and what that refers to--i.e. the 10x this word is used [passive 'appear'] re: Jesus--ALL 10 of those occurred AFTER His resurrection)... IOW, I do not believe Heb9:28 is a RAPTURE verse.

In a different thread, I pointed out how the phrase "ye have heard" is used elsewhere in Scripture (ex. scattered throughout Matt5, namely vv.21,27,33,38,43... speaking of actual OT references--this is the purpose of the "ye have heard" phrase [not mere "rumours," as I'm sure you are aware...])

Yes, the OT did.

Dan9:26b[27a/b/c] - "the prince THAT SHALL COME" = "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL/advent/presence/parousia; 2Th2:9a] is after the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that..." (=Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception! ]"=Seal #1, i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of MANY MORE that will FOLLOW ON from that INITIAL one...this is how "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" work!)

Does he say that? No. He says, "YE HAVE HEARD that antichrist is coming" (stating fact), and then says, "EVEN NOW many antichrists HAVE ARISEN" (stating fact). Nowhere does he say, "start looking for antichrist [coz he could be here now, TOO!]". No, he does not suggest this.
The writer is directing their attention to what was before them in their present day time-frame ("many antichrists HAVE ARISEN"--even/and [kai] NOW... but I don't think by saying "whereby we know that it is the last hour" that this refers to the future, specific, limited time-period we commonly call "the [7-yr] tribulation period" aka "the 70th Week" of Daniel, aka "the time of Jacob's trouble," or "in their [/Israel's] AFFLICTION." [i.e. the "FUTURE" aspects of the Revelation] but instead is referring to the "NOW" aspects [chpts 2-3 (of Rev), which section is NOT said of it that it "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" like the 1:1/1:19c/4:1 section says of the "FUTURE" aspects of Rev does, see]).

Make sense?

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 17, 2020

^ to go along with that, the following passage is ALSO what will take place IN/DURING/WITHIN the future Trib yrs (i.e. the "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT" aspect of "the DOTL" time-period [not a mere 'singular 24-hr day,' all told

]):

2Th2:10-12 -

10 and in every deception of wickedness unto those perishing, in return for which they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved. 11 And because of this, God WILL SEND TO THEM a working of delusion, for them to believe what is false [the pseudei], 12 in order that all those not having believed the truth but having delighted in unrighteousness should be judged.

[all of the underlined takes place during a period-of-TIME, while they still exist on the earth, i.e. IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"

)]

calibob · Nov 17, 2020

Blain said:

I got distracted by my alerts and neglected to press post. In regards to sharpening our swords. Theres a point when swords start becoming thin and useless. We craftsmen must also use restraint, or as the Bible teaches; "moderation in all things."

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 17, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Oops... I had forgotten to add the part I intended to put, about Matt24:29-31 (which is parallel Isaiah 27:12-13), see the following post I made elsewhere today:

Post #5 (scroll down toward the bottom to see ref: Matt24:29-31/Isaiah 27:12-13 ) - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...rib-rapture-as-many-teach.195853/post-4418606

[note WHO and HOW and TO WHERE they are "gathered"... This is not a "Rapture" reference, but a "Second Coming to the earth [FOR the earthly MK age]" reference]

Ahwatukee · Nov 17, 2020

calibob said:

Morning Calibob!

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments make up the wrath of God. Therefore, the first seal being opened is what initiates God's wrath. This being the true and the fact that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then our being gathered must take place prior to the opening of the first seal. In fact, I strongly believe that Revelation 4:1 is what I call a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church. In I Thess.4:17 Paul says that "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a loud command and with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God." I believe that the trumpet of God is synonymous with the Lord's voice that sounds like a trumpet mentioned in Revelation 1:10 and again in 4:1 which says, "come up here." That said, this would have the church gathered prior to the first seal being opened.

Post-Tribulation means, after the tribulation. The tribulation will be seven years in length. The Lord does not return to the earth until after the 7th bowl has been poured out which completes God's wrath. Therefore, you cannot have post tribulation meaning to take place before the tribulation (God's wrath) has completed.

Regarding "get ready, be ready and stay ready" those who hold to a post tribulation would not be ready because for them they are looking for God's wrath to take place first. Where those who believe in His imminent return, i.e. not dependent upon God's wrath taking place first, have no signs that must take place prior to His appearing to gather His church. To be clear, if the church was to be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, I could chronologically follow right along with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and know that after I saw the events of the 7th bowl judgment, that the Lord was going to return in close proximity to that event. If I was a believer in post-trib, I would know that the Lord can't come to gather us right now, because God's wrath hasn't even started.

calibob · Nov 17, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Here is where I believe is where the caling up of the martyrs, reserrection of the dead ant the rapture is according to Johns
Revelations' Chapters 6 & 7:

The Fifth Seal: The Martyrs
9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.
The Sixth Seal: Terror
12And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Revelation 7 ►
Berean Study Bible Par ▾
144,000 Sealed
1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back its four winds so that no wind would blow on land or sea or on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, with the seal of the living God. And he called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3“Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have sealed the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
4And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
and from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
Praise from the Great Multitude
9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”
11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”
14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”
So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15For this reason,
they are before the throne of God
and serve Him day and night in His temple;
and the One seated on the throne
will spread His tabernacle over them.
16‘Never again will they hunger,
and never will they thirst;
nor will the sun beat down upon them,
nor any scorching heat.’a
17For the Lamb in the center of the throne
will be their shepherd.b
‘He will lead them to springs of living water,’c
and ‘God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’d”

The Berean Bible (www.Berean.Bible) Berean Study Bible (BSB) © 2016, 2020 by Bible Hub and Berean.Bible. Used by Permission. All rights Reserved. Free downloads and licensing available. See also the Berean Literal Bible and Berean Interlinear Bible.

With all due respect that's where I see the rapture. I's definitely not post trib. But the way that I would define it it seems mid trib to me. That's all.

calibob · Nov 17, 2020

Blain said:

BTW; I missed something, according to my and many other Anabaptists doctrinal beliefs it should have read 'Baptized in public so that everybody, saved or not could see.' John the Baptist did it that way, the Lord was Baptized that way, and other disciples likewise as well.

calibob · Nov 17, 2020

@Ahwatukee in order to make it short, I see the resurrections of the dead and the rapture in Rev. 7.
I see the beginning of the Tribulation in chapter 6.

Godcares · Nov 17, 2020

throughfaith said:

Hello Throughfaith

1. The bible says that Jesus is coming after the tribulation

Matthew 24:29-30
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

2. The bible also says that the tribulation will be great and will be shortened for the elect’s sake.

Matthew 24:20-25
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

3. The following bibles verses states that when Jesus comes back, the dead will rise first and those who are alive at his second coming will meet him also in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first"
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

From these two verses, it states that there will be faithful Christians who will be alive when Jesus comes back after the tribulation. Meaning that God preserved them through the tribulation.

I hope the above answers your question.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 17, 2020

Godcares said:

Pre-tribbers (such as myself) ALSO believe Jesus "comes back" AFTER the tribulation.

Pre-tribbers ALSO believe that there will be "saved persons" IN the trib years, and that some will even STILL BE ALIVE at the time of His "RETURN" (to the earth, Rev19). However, these are "saints" who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (that is, IN/DURING/WITHIN the tribulation period, FOLLOWING our Departure).

There are about 8-10 "BLESSED" passages that speak to that point in time, and of "STILL-ALIVE" believers/saints... who will go on to ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies (capable of bearing children/reproducing). These never lift off the earth... Daniel 12:12 is one such verse (of the 8-10 that speak to THIS).

The biblical word "RETURN" speaks of His Second Coming to the earth (Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" ... THEN the meal [G347], i.e. the earthly MK age; and Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN" when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" ['cities' are on the earth], and "be thou likewise over 5 cities")... but the 1Th4 passage is not speaking of this, rather it is speaking of "the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" ("our Rapture"/"THE Departure"... which some call "the SNATCH").

[ditto what I said above]

Again, the 8-10 "BLESSED" passages speak to this ^ (about "STILL-LIVING" mortals ['saints'] at that time), but which are not speaking to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (us), nor of "our Rapture,"... but of those who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" and who will enter the MK age (in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children, and whom Jesus has said "SHALL NEVER DIE" Jn11:26) but who will NEVER have lifted off the earth (i.e. the "RAPTURE [/ SNATCH / CAUGHT-UP / CAUGHT AWAY]" pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [and at one singular point in time], not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods--not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints).

So... Pre-tribbers [most, anyway] are not suggesting that the Trib saints are not preserved through the trib-yrs ALIVE (many will be, according to these texts on that Subject--and NOAH [the passage in Matt24 speaking of him] is the example of THIS [as you are pointing out]), it's just that these passages are not speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]"], i.e. all those saved "in this present age [singular]" (and of whom "ENOCH" is the picture/example--taken up PRIOR TO the flood-judgment unfolding upon the earth).

throughfaith · Nov 18, 2020

Godcares said:

Hello Throughfaith

1. The bible says that Jesus is coming after the tribulation

Matthew 24:29-30
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

2. The bible also says that the tribulation will be great and will be shortened for the elect’s sake.

Matthew 24:20-25
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

3. The following bibles verses states that when Jesus comes back, the dead will rise first and those who are alive at his second coming will meet him also in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first"
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

From these two verses, it states that there will be faithful Christians who will be alive when Jesus comes back after the tribulation. Meaning that God preserved them through the tribulation.

I hope the above answers your question.

I would see the ' elect ' as Jews . And why do you place 1 thes 4 AFTER the tribulation?

Nehemiah6 · Nov 18, 2020

throughfaith said:

Because today Bible interpretation is based upon whims of fancy.

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