Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

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cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Put it this way. I have about 50 books and articles about modern-day miracles. I personally have been involved in the miracle of healing. I have books that tell the story of Jesus appearing to Muslims in the night and as a result, they have become born-again believers.

In other words, all you need to do is open your eyes, read a few books, look up the internet, and walla! there is all the evidence you need.
Hearsay will not hold up in a legit court. The leper cleansed in Matthew 8 was commanded by Jesus (as per the Law) to go to the priests as a testimony to them, do the Leviticus 13 cleansing ritual, this ritual which, until that point in time had never happened in Israel's history.

Now THAT is how you handle a miraculous healing.
 

Dirtman

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Jul 19, 2022
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Is the New Apostolic Reformation (the NAR) Pentecostal?
 

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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Is the New Apostolic Reformation (the NAR) Pentecostal?
Not really. Pentecostalism doesn't recognize the office of apostle. But they teach there are those who function as apostles; especially evangelists who preach the gospel and perform "signs and wonders."

The NAR has mostly grown out of Pentecostalism and other charismatic groups, but they're not officially affiliated with any of them. They're loosely affiliated groups who teach and preach the same things: Mainly that the office of apostle has been restored and the model for churches needs to undergo a major shift. In other words, churches are to no longer be led by pastors but by an apostle. An apostle usually has many churches under his authority.

They claim to not be organized, but if the International Coalition of Apostolic Leaders isn't an organization I don't know what is.
 

Dirtman

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Jul 19, 2022
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Not really. Pentecostalism doesn't recognize the office of apostle. But they teach there are those who function as apostles; especially evangelists who preach the gospel and perform "signs and wonders."

The NAR has mostly grown out of Pentecostalism and other charismatic groups, but they're not officially affiliated with any of them. They're loosely affiliated groups who teach and preach the same things: Mainly that the office of apostle has been restored and the model for churches needs to undergo a major shift. In other words, churches are to no longer be led by pastors but by an apostle. An apostle usually has many churches under his authority.

They claim to not be organized, but if the International Coalition of Apostolic Leaders isn't an organization I don't know what is.
The NAR came out of Pentecostal because doctrinal differences and are a separate organization? Or are a sub group of Pentecostal? Because it seems like you are saying both.
 

Dirtman

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Do pentecostals renounce people like Kenneth Copeland?
 

ResidentAlien

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The NAR came out of Pentecostal because doctrinal differences and are a separate organization? Or are a sub group of Pentecostal? Because it seems like you are saying both.
I'm not saying both. The NAR isn't Pentecostal. Hope that helps.
 

Dirtman

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Jul 19, 2022
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I'm not saying both. The NAR isn't Pentecostal. Hope that helps.
So I looked up some well know Pentecostal pastors and it seems a sketchy lot, from Copeland to Oral Roberts. Are these guys Pentecostal?
 
Jun 20, 2022
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So I looked up some well know Pentecostal pastors and it seems a sketchy lot, from Copeland to Oral Roberts. Are these guys Pentecostal?
Roberts was Methodist and Copeland and others came out of the Roberts Tree. they are considered Independent so they can claim to be anything even if others don't recognize them for it.
 

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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So I looked up some well know Pentecostal pastors and it seems a sketchy lot, from Copeland to Oral Roberts. Are these guys Pentecostal?
Copeland's teachings are Word of Faith. He attended Kenneth Hagin Sr.'s Pastor Siminars and was friends with Hagin. He also attended Oral Roberts University and worked for Roberts as a pilot. A lot of people don't know this but ORU's teaching was primarily Word of Faith up until the university was taken out of the hands of the Roberts family. None of them was Pentecostal as far as I know, except for Roberts in his early days.
 

Dirtman

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Jul 19, 2022
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Copeland's teachings are Word of Faith. He attended Kenneth Hagin Sr.'s Pastor Siminars and was friends with Hagin. He also attended Oral Roberts University and worked for Roberts as a pilot. A lot of people don't know this but ORU's teaching was primarily Word of Faith up until the university was taken out of the hands of the Roberts family. None of them was Pentecostal as far as I know, except for Roberts in his early days.
Can ya point me to good example of a Pentecost pastor, so I can see what they teach for myself?
 

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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Can ya point me to good example of a Pentecost pastor, so I can see what they teach for myself?
There are way too many. You'll be better off just doing your own research. There's also wide variation in what is taught and preached. It also depends on if you want official doctrine or the doctrines preached by individual preachers. There's a ton of info online.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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Hearsay will not hold up in a legit court. The leper cleansed in Matthew 8 was commanded by Jesus (as per the Law) to go to the priests as a testimony to them, do the Leviticus 13 cleansing ritual, this ritual which, until that point in time had never happened in Israel's history.

Now THAT is how you handle a miraculous healing.
So I guess that hundreds of Muslims who have come to Jesus through the miraculous is hearsay?
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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Highly unlikely. Show me the evidence......unless this is some kind of a joke. Or unless you're defending Benny Hinn.
What for as you sound as though you would not accept it. I found out by reading articles in christian magazines where they quoted his own words. And as they all said the same thing that makes them authentic. All you have to do is look up Benny Hinn on the internet. That should not be too hard for you.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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Not really. Pentecostalism doesn't recognize the office of apostle. But they teach there are those who function as apostles; especially evangelists who preach the gospel and perform "signs and wonders."

The NAR has mostly grown out of Pentecostalism and other charismatic groups, but they're not officially affiliated with any of them. They're loosely affiliated groups who teach and preach the same things: Mainly that the office of apostle has been restored and the model for churches needs to undergo a major shift. In other words, churches are to no longer be led by pastors but by an apostle. An apostle usually has many churches under his authority.

They claim to not be organized, but if the International Coalition of Apostolic Leaders isn't an organization I don't know what is.
in the UK it was the outworkings mainly of the Anglican Church and the Brethren. nearly all of the leaders were from those two churches.
 

mustaphadrink

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Dec 13, 2013
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In other words, all you have is your word, still.
NO, I have the words of my own personal experience, and if you don't accept that you are calling me a liar. I have the words of the books that have been written by those Muslims who met Jesus miraculously. if you don't accept that then you are calling them a liar. If you don't accept the words of the 50 books I have read then you are calling the authors liars.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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Benny Hinn didn't repent. He said some words like Jim Bakker said some words. Hinn's still out there conning people. Compare this with the true repentance of Zacchaeus:

"Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, 'Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold.' "
Benny Hinn did repent. I heard his words with my own ears.