OSAS= House Built on Sand

[Ralph-]

God did not create "MAN B" to burn, God created him in His own image but the only thing with MAN B is God doesn't draw him to Himself as He does with MAN A.

If this is true I'll walk away from the Christian faith. What a meaningless, miserable religion. What a pathetic god who would do that.

What God does is he may not call MAN 'B' ('b' for 'burn') as vigorously as MAN 'A', knowing that MAN 'B' will not accept anything he says. This, I think, is seen in the parable of the talents. The Master only gave one talent to the person who ended up doing nothing with the talent--the knowledge of God--he gave him. In his foreknowledge he knew he wasn't going to do anything with the knowledge of the kingdom and so he did not trust much revelation with him. But he did give him revelation. He did attempt to draw him to himself. He did not give him nothing, guaranteeing his destruction, as you're trying to say.

 

[UnderGrace]

Salvation is conditional .If Christ has begun the good work he will finish it. His love is unfailing.

Salvation is not conditional. The very fact that it is Christ's work makes it secure.

 

[Slayer]

S...,,

I find nothing in scriptures which supports predestination. If it were then;

...free will would not be needed;
.....repentance would not be needed;
....baptism would not be needed;
...unlimited forgiveness would not be needed;
....no need for Christ to be sacrificed on the cross because there would be no need for forgiveness, etc.

Why won't/can't some folks allow scripture to interpret scripture?
That is a very important rule of Bible study.

Well Sir, there are many millions of us who disagree with your understanding of the scriptures.

We believe God doesn't just wink at sin and forget it, without any consequences. Sin had to be dealt with ruthlessly, so believers must be baptized with fire. Our works will be tested with fire, and we may have to forfeit our very lives for His Names sake.

We are dealing with the most important, serious and sobering of all subjects. Christ paid more than you can imagine, to purchase our salvation. You don't come along and finish the job, that's a big insult to suggest that we have to perfect the work He started but failed to finish.

 

[Ralph-]

Salvation is not conditional. The very fact that it is Christ's work makes it secure.

Show me in the Bible where salvation is not conditional on trusting in Christ.

Or, show me where Christ does my trusting for me so it can't be said it's me doing something to be saved.

 

[Ralph-]

You don't come along and finish the job, that's a big insult to suggest that we have to perfect the work He started but failed to finish.

How is you continuing in your old life you trusting in the blood of Christ for deliverance from the wrath to come?

 

[Slayer]

If this is true I'll walk away from the Christian faith. What a meaningless, miserable religion. What a pathetic god who would do that.

What God does is he may not call MAN 'B' ('b' for 'burn') as vigorously as MAN 'A', knowing that MAN 'B' will not accept anything he says. This, I think, is seen in the parable of the talents. The Master only gave one talent to the person who ended up doing nothing with the talent--the knowledge of God--he gave him. In his foreknowledge he knew he wasn't going to do anything with the knowledge of the kingdom and so he did not trust much revelation with him. But he did give him revelation. He did attempt to draw him to himself. He did not give him nothing, guaranteeing his destruction, as you're trying to say.

I'm not saying He didn't give him anything, I'm saying He gave him a lot but that lot He gave him wasn't enough to save him. God is the one who must do the work of salvation, from start to finish.

Man just doesn't have what it takes to effect his salvation by believing in the finished work of Christ. We should also remember that we are born dead in our trespasses and sin, being spiritually dead means we won't respond to the Gospel call.

There are just too many Bible verses supporting predestination and election, the only logical conclusion must be to take them literally.

 

[UnderGrace]

.

God did not create "MAN B" to burn, God created him in His own image but the only thing with MAN B is God doesn't draw him to Himself as He does with MAN A.

So if God doesn't draw a man to Himself, that man will choose to fulfill the lusts of his heart and thus separate himself from God. Every person will automatically gravitate to sin like a duck to water, and unless God draws him away from his sin he will end up separated eternally because God can't allow a single sin to pollute heaven.

So it's not God who caused him to end up in hell, his own sinful actions separate him and ultimately land him in hell. We can't blame God for the actions of a sinner.

The better question should be, why does God save any of us. Why doesn't He just send everyone to hell, after all we deserve it. The fact that He chose to save anyone is a miracle and it shows amazing love, to die for filthy stinking sinners is amazing grace.

Can you not see how convoluted this is?

The problem with this "theology" is it puts man in a position of having to defend God's actions.
The usual final response is "well He is God and He can do what He wants and how dare we question His authority."
Well we do not question God's sovereignty/authority, we question this false dogma

This is a very sad statement "filthy stinking sinners"
He died for us because He loved us.

I feel like when I read stuff like this it reminds me of priests and their self flagellation of not only themselves but others as well, which is ultimately false humility, self loathing and loathing of others.

 

[Ralph-]

I'm not saying He didn't give him anything, I'm saying He gave him a lot but that lot He gave him wasn't enough to save him.

What a pathetic religion you have.

 

[Slayer]

If this is true I'll walk away from the Christian faith. What a meaningless, miserable religion. What a pathetic god who would do that.

What God does is he may not call MAN 'B' ('b' for 'burn') as vigorously as MAN 'A', knowing that MAN 'B' will not accept anything he says. This, I think, is seen in the parable of the talents. The Master only gave one talent to the person who ended up doing nothing with the talent--the knowledge of God--he gave him. In his foreknowledge he knew he wasn't going to do anything with the knowledge of the kingdom and so he did not trust much revelation with him. But he did give him revelation. He did attempt to draw him to himself. He did not give him nothing, guaranteeing his destruction, as you're trying to say.

Please don't even consider walking away, I nearly did that for this very same reason but God put something on my heart that made me comfortable with the idea once and for all.

It was as though God said, "Trust me, everything I do is perfect and fair. I never dish out injustice, I am love but I must also judge wickedness".

We should just take God at His Word and let Him be God, ours is to trust and obey. He will reveal why He does these things at his appointed time. Then everything will make perfect sense, right now it doesn't sound fair. It sounds outrageous, but be still and know He is Lord of all.

 

[UnderGrace]

Please don't even consider walking away, I nearly did that for this very same reason but God put something on my heart that made me comfortable with the idea once and for all.

It was as though God said, "Trust me, everything I do is perfect and fair. I never dish out injustice, I am love but I must also judge wickedness".

We should just take God at His Word and let Him be God, ours is to trust and obey. He will reveal why He does these things at his appointed time. Then everything will make perfect sense, right now it doesn't sound fair. It sounds outrageous, but be still and know He is Lord of all.

You malign the very character of God. Wickedness was judge at the cross. He is a more righteous judge than you are willing to accept.

 

[Slayer]

.



Can you not see how convoluted this is?

The problem with this "theology" is it puts man in a position of having to defend God's actions.
The usual final response is "well He is God and He can do what He wants and how dare we question His authority."
Well we do not question God's sovereignty/authority, we question this false dogma

This is a very sad statement "filthy stinking sinners"
He died for us because He loved us.

I feel like when I read stuff like this it reminds me of priests and their self flagellation of not only themselves but others as well, which is ultimately false humility, self loathing and loathing of others.

I'm only quoting the way some scriptures describe mankind, we are described as desperately wicked and many other nasty descriptions of our state before we are converted.

 

[Ralph-]

Please don't even consider walking away, I nearly did that for this very same reason but God put something on my heart that made me comfortable with the idea once and for all.

It was as though God said, "Trust me, everything I do is perfect and fair. I never dish out injustice, I am love but I must also judge wickedness".

We should just take God at His Word and let Him be God, ours is to trust and obey. He will reveal why He does these things at his appointed time. Then everything will make perfect sense, right now it doesn't sound fair. It sounds outrageous, but be still and know He is Lord of all.

I guess you're not getting it. We get that God is just and that he must judge wickedness. This idea that God purposely created some people to be evil and unjust and lost and never able to be saved instead of creating them with the possibility of one day being saved that is what is so horrible about your religion.

 

[Slayer]

You malign the very character of God. Wickedness was judge at the cross. He is a more righteous judge than you are willing to accept.

Jesus only paid for the wickedness of His elect on the cross, the rest will have to pay for their in hell fire for eternity. There's no way of getting around that rock solid Bible doctrine.

 

[Ralph-]

@Slayer , you have a great testimony and I want to see you grow in the Lord and never fall away, so I'm not trying to break your faith. But you need to lose this idea that God purposely made it so some people can never be saved simply because he refuses to save them but that they would be saved if he would just let them, and that he predetermined it this way.

 

[Ralph-]

Jesus only paid for the wickedness of His elect on the cross, the rest will have to pay for their in hell fire for eternity. There's no way of getting around that rock solid Bible doctrine.

He made the payment available to MANY. But only a FEW will accept it.

 

[Ralph-]

There are just too many Bible verses supporting predestination and election, the only logical conclusion must be to take them literally.

The problem is your understanding of predestination and election. Not that they don't exist.

 

[Slayer]

I guess you're not getting it. We get that God is just and that he must judge wickedness. This idea that God purposely created some people to be evil and unjust and lost and never able to be saved instead of creating them with the possibility of one day being saved that is what is so horrible about your religion.

We allow the Bible to be the final authority over all things, we take God at His Word no matter how hard that word may be. We believe the problem in the Church is, folks who refuse to take God at His Word. They use their wicked, fallen, sinful, foolish, carnal, rebellious, irrational minds to judge a Perfect, Holy, Infinite, All Knowing, All Wise, All Mighty, Loving, Righteous Judge, Omniscient, Creator of All God.

Can you see the problem with the above equation, we are trying to process and squeeze the works of an infinitely big God through our narrow pathetic little minds. Come on guy's, let God be God and obey Him instead of recreating Him to fit into your puny minds.

 

[Slayer]

He made the payment available to MANY. But only a FEW will accept it.

That's right, only the few elect accepted it, the rest (the smart men) said it was foolishness

 

[Slayer]

@Slayer , you have a great testimony and I want to see you grow in the Lord and never fall away, so I'm not trying to break your faith. But you need to lose this idea that God purposely made it so some people can never be saved simply because he refuses to save them but that they would be saved if he would just let them, and that he predetermined it this way.

My argument is, why did God choose to save anyone. We all deserved hell, but He choose to save some for His own glory. Remember, we are still dealing with the same God who destroyed the whole world with a flood and destroyed whole cities later for fornication

 

[UnderGrace]

Jesus only paid for the wickedness of His elect on the cross, the rest will have to pay for their in hell fire for eternity. There's no way of getting around that rock solid Bible doctrine.

Limited atonement is the weakest doctrine ever formulated by a man.

Albeit necessary within the God of "five step program" of Calvin's, where generations of people are given a short time on this planet and then consigned to hell because God did not select them.

God could have easy had His selection within the first few centuries after Christ, but no it takes millennia to have His select group so

then the others who are on the way to hell anyway are merely collateral damage.

What difference does it make they were bound for hell anyway, they were after all filthy wicked sinners.

Well maybe they would have preferred to not be born at all than to be born and then spend eternity in hell because they were not the select.

Sounds more like science fiction than the God of the Bible who came and spoke to Adam and clothed Him after the fall.