Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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In Post 1089 I said this:
Question: Please define salvation (for those holding to OSAS).
1. What is the way of salvation? Acts 16:17
2. What does Romans 13:11 mean when Paul tells Christians in Rome that salvation is nearer than when we believed?
3. Why does Paul say that he is afflicted for the salvation of the Corinthian believers? 2Corinthians 1:6
4. Why does Paul tell the Corinthian believers that he caused them godly sorrow because godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation if they are already saved? 2Corinthians 7:10
5. Why does Paul say that the persecution he is seeing "shall turn to his salvation" through the prayer of the Philippians? Philippians 1:19.
6. Why does Paul tell the believers to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" Philippians 2:12.
7. What is the hope of salvation 1Thessalonians 5:8?
8. Why does Paul say that he endures all things for the elect's sake so that he might obtain salvation? 2Timothy 2:10
9. What does "heir of salvation" mean? Hebrews 1:14
10. Why is the Lord's second coming referred to as our salvation? Hebrews 9:28
Yes, You said these references to salvation don't matter. However, they are all included in the use of salvation in the first post.
Question: Please define salvation (for those holding to OSAS).
1. What is the way of salvation? Acts 16:17
2. What does Romans 13:11 mean when Paul tells Christians in Rome that salvation is nearer than when we believed?
3. Why does Paul say that he is afflicted for the salvation of the Corinthian believers? 2Corinthians 1:6
4. Why does Paul tell the Corinthian believers that he caused them godly sorrow because godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation if they are already saved? 2Corinthians 7:10
5. Why does Paul say that the persecution he is seeing "shall turn to his salvation" through the prayer of the Philippians? Philippians 1:19.
6. Why does Paul tell the believers to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" Philippians 2:12.
7. What is the hope of salvation 1Thessalonians 5:8?
8. Why does Paul say that he endures all things for the elect's sake so that he might obtain salvation? 2Timothy 2:10
9. What does "heir of salvation" mean? Hebrews 1:14
10. Why is the Lord's second coming referred to as our salvation? Hebrews 9:28
Yes, You said these references to salvation don't matter. However, they are all included in the use of salvation in the first post.
my friend, All I am concerned with is the salvation that matters.
as for the OP. I have already shown where he is wrong in what he says about those passages. Because he is not interpreting those passages correctly in my view and I have shared why. That is WHY we have started our discussion.
You already insulted me by claiming I am trying to derail a thread when i ANSWERED YOUR SPECIFIC QUESTION GIVEN TO ME.
Thats nor being honest my friend that is being dishonest. Don;t expect an honest discussion when you are not going to be honest yourself.
as for the OP. I have already shown where he is wrong in what he says about those passages. Because he is not interpreting those passages correctly in my view and I have shared why. That is WHY we have started our discussion.
You already insulted me by claiming I am trying to derail a thread when i ANSWERED YOUR SPECIFIC QUESTION GIVEN TO ME.
Thats nor being honest my friend that is being dishonest. Don;t expect an honest discussion when you are not going to be honest yourself.
Hardly,
Post 1089-
The slave girl was (apparently) being very sarcastic when she shouted "these men are the servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved". She was telling the truth but making fun of them by her tone, etc. Paul preached the gospel of how to avoid the LOF and live with God forever.
Paul was referring to the time when all believers will receive their glorified (immortal) bodies. Every day we are a day closer to that.
Salvation typically means "deliverance from some danger/etc". So Paul was concerned about their suffering the same things that he was suffering.
Deliverance from God's DISCIPLINE. Paul took the congregation to task for their casual treatment of the incestuous man, who Paul said to kick him out of the congregation so Satan would "destroy his flesh" (kill him). Not real pleasant.
The NIV and others translate it as "what has happened to me shall turn out for my deliverance".
Salvation can be seen in 3 tenses.
Past tense: to be saved from the penalty of sin. This is justification.
Present tense: to be saved from the power of sin. This is sanctification.
Future tense: to be saved from the presence of sin. This is glorification.
In Phil 2:12 Paul was referring to the present tense application; iow, spiritual growth.
In the Greek, the word "hope" means a confident expectation. iow, to be totally convinced. So Paul is referring to ASSURANCE here.
Paul wasn't speaking of himself, but for the elect. That they might obtain salvation.
As God's children, we are His heirs. Rom 8:17a
Because when He comes back, all believers will receive their glorified bodies and be SAVED, DELIVERED, RESCUED from their mortal correupt bodies.
Post 1089-
The slave girl was (apparently) being very sarcastic when she shouted "these men are the servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved". She was telling the truth but making fun of them by her tone, etc. Paul preached the gospel of how to avoid the LOF and live with God forever.
Paul was referring to the time when all believers will receive their glorified (immortal) bodies. Every day we are a day closer to that.
Salvation typically means "deliverance from some danger/etc". So Paul was concerned about their suffering the same things that he was suffering.
Deliverance from God's DISCIPLINE. Paul took the congregation to task for their casual treatment of the incestuous man, who Paul said to kick him out of the congregation so Satan would "destroy his flesh" (kill him). Not real pleasant.
The NIV and others translate it as "what has happened to me shall turn out for my deliverance".
Salvation can be seen in 3 tenses.
Past tense: to be saved from the penalty of sin. This is justification.
Present tense: to be saved from the power of sin. This is sanctification.
Future tense: to be saved from the presence of sin. This is glorification.
In Phil 2:12 Paul was referring to the present tense application; iow, spiritual growth.
In the Greek, the word "hope" means a confident expectation. iow, to be totally convinced. So Paul is referring to ASSURANCE here.
Paul wasn't speaking of himself, but for the elect. That they might obtain salvation.
As God's children, we are His heirs. Rom 8:17a
Because when He comes back, all believers will receive their glorified bodies and be SAVED, DELIVERED, RESCUED from their mortal correupt bodies.
That is confused, as I pointed out. If you "have faith" in something, then you "believe in it".
OK, go ahead and shift the goal posts. It all depends on WHAT is believed, obviously.
Since the discussion is about "saving faith", then the believing will be what the Bible says about how to be saved, which Paul answered quite nicely in Acts 16:31.
Nope. Please read James 2:19 carefully. What EXACTLY do the demons believe? The subject is monotheism, which was particular to the Jews. Why do they believe that "God is One"? Because God created all of them, and they LIVED with God until Lucifer rebelled and deceived 1/3 of the angelic host to follow him.
So their belief is based on experience, not simply trusting what someone told them.
And what they believe is NOT saving faith anyway, so those who use James 2:19 and "demon faith" are really missing the whole point.
Lots of people believe in monotheism but have never trusted in God's Son for salvation. And they are not saved.
OK, go ahead and shift the goal posts. It all depends on WHAT is believed, obviously.
Since the discussion is about "saving faith", then the believing will be what the Bible says about how to be saved, which Paul answered quite nicely in Acts 16:31.
Nope. Please read James 2:19 carefully. What EXACTLY do the demons believe? The subject is monotheism, which was particular to the Jews. Why do they believe that "God is One"? Because God created all of them, and they LIVED with God until Lucifer rebelled and deceived 1/3 of the angelic host to follow him.
So their belief is based on experience, not simply trusting what someone told them.
And what they believe is NOT saving faith anyway, so those who use James 2:19 and "demon faith" are really missing the whole point.
Lots of people believe in monotheism but have never trusted in God's Son for salvation. And they are not saved.
I probably agree with 90% of this.
OK, if salvation as used by Everlasting grace is Justification (past tense)
Sanctification is present tense -- can true believes walk away, forsake, abandon the faith and abandon sanctification and have their conscience seared as with a hot iron?
Glorification is in the future. You say all believers will receive a glorified body. So my question on that is does our glorification depend on sanctification and if so what happens to those that abandon the faith? If the process of sanctification stops what happens to glorification?
OK, if salvation as used by Everlasting grace is Justification (past tense)
Sanctification is present tense -- can true believes walk away, forsake, abandon the faith and abandon sanctification and have their conscience seared as with a hot iron?
Glorification is in the future. You say all believers will receive a glorified body. So my question on that is does our glorification depend on sanctification and if so what happens to those that abandon the faith? If the process of sanctification stops what happens to glorification?
The Bible indicates yes. Jesus made that point in Luke 8:13. And Paul wrote about seared consciences in 1 Tim 4.
Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. So even those who offend the believers who reject OSAS will still have their eternal life and shall never perish. And be given glorified bodies, like every other believer.
No change. Or the Bible would have specifically and clearly said so.
But this is a good question. For those believers who have stopped spiritual growth, will lose out on blessings during their life, and reward in the next life. They will be in heaven, but it will be obvious to everyone that they earned no reward.
Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. So even those who offend the believers who reject OSAS will still have their eternal life and shall never perish. And be given glorified bodies, like every other believer.
No change. Or the Bible would have specifically and clearly said so.
But this is a good question. For those believers who have stopped spiritual growth, will lose out on blessings during their life, and reward in the next life. They will be in heaven, but it will be obvious to everyone that they earned no reward.
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lol
We are saved
We are being saved
We will e saved.
You want to make the final salvation as something we earn. not something we already have
then you claim to me you are not teaching works did you not?
The way to salvation is clear - He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already. whoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved ( a completed at) us
in Romans 13: 11 paul is speaking of our future ressurection. Not our past salvation ( we will be saved) Jesus said our salvation is complete. we will never perish, but we have eternal life.. that eternal life in eternity is what we are promised and given
1 cor is written to the church at corinth. nothing in the passage says they are all saved.. we are foolish to think everyone that attands any church service is saved
Paul is not talking about his eternal salvation in phillipians, how can someone else affect my or anyone elses salvation. are you serious??
as for work out YOUR SAlVATION. the salvation IS YOURS Paul did not say work to RECIEVE SALVATION, he said work out the salvation that is in you. We better all do this, this is how we are sanctified, and how our word is not rejected because we have put out our own light with sin How can we bear fruit is we are seen as hypocrites>
hope of salvation. Again we WILL BE SAVED. It is wht our faith is in. Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR the evidence of things not seen. If we have no hope of eternal life, which God who can not lie, nd primised before time began, We have no faith. Its why John said we can know we have it. so we can continue in the hope of our faith. Its not knowing we have it that causes us to lose hope. I have witnessed this so many times in the last 40 years. so many people who walked away becase they did not have hope. because they trusted themselves and not God
Paul did not endure all things so HE could be saved, He did it so THEY might be saved
2Tim 2: Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the [c]elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
As Gods children, by which we were empowered through ONLY through believe (john 1) we are fellow heirs with him, it means what he was given we will share in.
The lords second comming is where our salvation, which was already GIVEN will be recieved. It does not negate the fact that our salvation is not complete.. We HAVE BEEN SAVED
We are saved
We are being saved
We will e saved.
You want to make the final salvation as something we earn. not something we already have
then you claim to me you are not teaching works did you not?
The way to salvation is clear - He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already. whoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved ( a completed at) us
in Romans 13: 11 paul is speaking of our future ressurection. Not our past salvation ( we will be saved) Jesus said our salvation is complete. we will never perish, but we have eternal life.. that eternal life in eternity is what we are promised and given
1 cor is written to the church at corinth. nothing in the passage says they are all saved.. we are foolish to think everyone that attands any church service is saved
Paul is not talking about his eternal salvation in phillipians, how can someone else affect my or anyone elses salvation. are you serious??
as for work out YOUR SAlVATION. the salvation IS YOURS Paul did not say work to RECIEVE SALVATION, he said work out the salvation that is in you. We better all do this, this is how we are sanctified, and how our word is not rejected because we have put out our own light with sin How can we bear fruit is we are seen as hypocrites>
hope of salvation. Again we WILL BE SAVED. It is wht our faith is in. Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR the evidence of things not seen. If we have no hope of eternal life, which God who can not lie, nd primised before time began, We have no faith. Its why John said we can know we have it. so we can continue in the hope of our faith. Its not knowing we have it that causes us to lose hope. I have witnessed this so many times in the last 40 years. so many people who walked away becase they did not have hope. because they trusted themselves and not God
Paul did not endure all things so HE could be saved, He did it so THEY might be saved
2Tim 2: Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the [c]elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
As Gods children, by which we were empowered through ONLY through believe (john 1) we are fellow heirs with him, it means what he was given we will share in.
The lords second comming is where our salvation, which was already GIVEN will be recieved. It does not negate the fact that our salvation is not complete.. We HAVE BEEN SAVED
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OK, so we have a few people who think that "justification" is the only salvation that matters confusing the entire discussion on salvation.
We now have a much more nuanced definition of salvation from freegrace2.
However, there are some questions/disputes that have not been resolved.
1. According to FreeGrace2 you cannot lose/forfeit your salvation
But that doesn't explain many other verses.
A. When Jesus tells the 5 foolish Virgins that didn't have their vessels full of oil (but they were waiting for the Bridegroom, they did have lamps and their lamps were lit) that "He never knew them" and they are locked out of the wedding feast it sure seems like their salvation is not the same as other believers, and so we need a clearer understanding of what "outer darkness" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is.
presumably if these virgins do go and buy oil they will be saved at a future date.
But, what happens if they don't?
2. How about Christians who have unforgiveness in their heart?
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
We now have a much more nuanced definition of salvation from freegrace2.
However, there are some questions/disputes that have not been resolved.
1. According to FreeGrace2 you cannot lose/forfeit your salvation
But that doesn't explain many other verses.
A. When Jesus tells the 5 foolish Virgins that didn't have their vessels full of oil (but they were waiting for the Bridegroom, they did have lamps and their lamps were lit) that "He never knew them" and they are locked out of the wedding feast it sure seems like their salvation is not the same as other believers, and so we need a clearer understanding of what "outer darkness" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is.
presumably if these virgins do go and buy oil they will be saved at a future date.
But, what happens if they don't?
2. How about Christians who have unforgiveness in their heart?
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
they lost reward (it was burnt in the fire as wood hay and straw)
but they themselves were still saved. in other words, they got through the fire of life and had nothing to show for it. They entered heaven naked with no reward. But were still saved.
There is no reward at the great white thrown judgment, Only the second death
but they themselves were still saved. in other words, they got through the fire of life and had nothing to show for it. They entered heaven naked with no reward. But were still saved.
There is no reward at the great white thrown judgment, Only the second death
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there is no confusion. on;y to those trying to muddy the fact
Eternal life, eternal salvation, is not based on what we do or do not do. It is based on what CHrist did on the cross and if we recieve or reject it.
He never knew them
This proves they were never saved. Just like those who try to come to christ boasting of all their works. He never knew them
Eternal life, eternal salvation, is not based on what we do or do not do. It is based on what CHrist did on the cross and if we recieve or reject it.
He never knew them
This proves they were never saved. Just like those who try to come to christ boasting of all their works. He never knew them
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26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
I am wondering how many people on this thread agree with Everlasting-Grace that the only salvation that matters is justification from sin?
Meaning you don't think that sanctification or glorification matter. In other words, once justified always justified, regardless.
It seems to me that those who are arguing for OSAS are actually arguing this: once justified from sin you are always justified from sin.
I am wondering how many people on this thread agree with Everlasting-Grace that the only salvation that matters is justification from sin?
Meaning you don't think that sanctification or glorification matter. In other words, once justified always justified, regardless.
It seems to me that those who are arguing for OSAS are actually arguing this: once justified from sin you are always justified from sin.