Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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Eternal life is eternal. it is a gift. A gift has no conditions.
The abrahamic covenant had no conditions. God said, I WILL. Abraham believed God and God credited him with righteousness
After abraham was saved by his faith. he had many many lapses in faith which caused him co commit grave sins, including adulty that Israel is still suffering the results of today.
Our salvation is based on that same covenant. God did not say, if you do this, I will do that. He said I will
Just like in John 3, 4 5 and 6 and many other areas, Jesus said he gave his life for the world. But that does not mean the world will be saved, he will not force it on you. He will only give to those who recieve. As john said, but as many as recieved him, to THEM he gave the right to become children of God.
Judas did not recieve Christ, He had knowledge, but he did not recieve him. He walked with him, but he did not trust him, It is people like Judas that John is warning us about in his epistle. People who have knowledge, but the knowledge did not bring them to recieve christ in faith. Judas did nto lose salvation because he left Christ and turned against him, He never had salvation. The same passage in John 6 where jesus tells his true believers they will never die, live forever, never hunger or thirst, they have eternal life and will be raised by him on the last day. that Judas was one of those who could not see, because they did not believe.
This is not an OSAS isue (I actually do nto like the term, it has caused many a fight) it is a God issue
1. Did God account the believer as righteous. if so they are saved, and have eternal life, Just as abraham did. It does not mean they wil not sin or show lapse in faith in different areas of their life
2. The promise of eternal life is based on God. He said I will. he did nto say if you do, I will. So if a person that God saves and gives this gift of eternal life is in the end lost. thats on God. its not on the person. The person could never merit salvation to begin with, as such, they can never unmerit it.
Saying a person can lose faith is saying it is not God holding on to them, it is saying they hold on to God. I am suprised you do not see the flaw in this logic. If we must hold onto God we are depending on our strength. and our power. That is a pure recipe for failure and disaster. it is depending on self. Not God.
The tax collector got on his kneee, unable to even look up. He understood he had no hope. he became bankrupt in spirit, and called out for God to save him. He went him justified (declaired innocent) with the same righteousness God gave to Abraham. As paul said in romans 11. The gifts of God are irrevocable. Just as God will keep his promise to abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He will keep his promise to those he gives the power or right to become children of God.
God said come to me and he will give us rest. If we are depending on our power. We can have no rest. Because it is on us, not God.
The abrahamic covenant had no conditions. God said, I WILL. Abraham believed God and God credited him with righteousness
After abraham was saved by his faith. he had many many lapses in faith which caused him co commit grave sins, including adulty that Israel is still suffering the results of today.
Our salvation is based on that same covenant. God did not say, if you do this, I will do that. He said I will
Just like in John 3, 4 5 and 6 and many other areas, Jesus said he gave his life for the world. But that does not mean the world will be saved, he will not force it on you. He will only give to those who recieve. As john said, but as many as recieved him, to THEM he gave the right to become children of God.
Judas did not recieve Christ, He had knowledge, but he did not recieve him. He walked with him, but he did not trust him, It is people like Judas that John is warning us about in his epistle. People who have knowledge, but the knowledge did not bring them to recieve christ in faith. Judas did nto lose salvation because he left Christ and turned against him, He never had salvation. The same passage in John 6 where jesus tells his true believers they will never die, live forever, never hunger or thirst, they have eternal life and will be raised by him on the last day. that Judas was one of those who could not see, because they did not believe.
This is not an OSAS isue (I actually do nto like the term, it has caused many a fight) it is a God issue
1. Did God account the believer as righteous. if so they are saved, and have eternal life, Just as abraham did. It does not mean they wil not sin or show lapse in faith in different areas of their life
2. The promise of eternal life is based on God. He said I will. he did nto say if you do, I will. So if a person that God saves and gives this gift of eternal life is in the end lost. thats on God. its not on the person. The person could never merit salvation to begin with, as such, they can never unmerit it.
Saying a person can lose faith is saying it is not God holding on to them, it is saying they hold on to God. I am suprised you do not see the flaw in this logic. If we must hold onto God we are depending on our strength. and our power. That is a pure recipe for failure and disaster. it is depending on self. Not God.
The tax collector got on his kneee, unable to even look up. He understood he had no hope. he became bankrupt in spirit, and called out for God to save him. He went him justified (declaired innocent) with the same righteousness God gave to Abraham. As paul said in romans 11. The gifts of God are irrevocable. Just as God will keep his promise to abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He will keep his promise to those he gives the power or right to become children of God.
God said come to me and he will give us rest. If we are depending on our power. We can have no rest. Because it is on us, not God.
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yes, lets look at them, lets just look at three of them
non of them say the things you accused me of
Saved does not mean you won't perish.
Saved does not mean you have an inheritance.
Saved does not mean you won't be cursed.
Saved does not mean you won't be rejected.
Once again, those are your beliefs not mine
non of them say the things you accused me of
Saved does not mean you won't perish.
Saved does not mean you have an inheritance.
Saved does not mean you won't be cursed.
Saved does not mean you won't be rejected.
Once again, those are your beliefs not mine
Esau lost his birthright, that is his inheritance as the firstborn, you argue that this doesn't mean he lost his salvation.
You argue that Israel being cursed doesn't mean they have lost their salvation.
You continually try to sneak in the argument that anyone on this thread is debating God's faithfulness, no one is arguing that, we are arguing that men are sinful, which you agree with. We are arguing that men are faithless, which you agree with.
We are arguing that the Bible warns us repeatedly in both the Old and New Testament about forsaking the covenant, and you explain that away. According to you the minute you get saved you can no longer be faithless or forsake the Lord because God is faithful?
Can't see that anywhere in the Bible.
The arguement is not that God is fickle, the argument is that if you do not obey the Lord and do not follow the Lord and do not take up your cross you will suffer loss.
You argue that Israel being cursed doesn't mean they have lost their salvation.
You continually try to sneak in the argument that anyone on this thread is debating God's faithfulness, no one is arguing that, we are arguing that men are sinful, which you agree with. We are arguing that men are faithless, which you agree with.
We are arguing that the Bible warns us repeatedly in both the Old and New Testament about forsaking the covenant, and you explain that away. According to you the minute you get saved you can no longer be faithless or forsake the Lord because God is faithful?
Can't see that anywhere in the Bible.
The arguement is not that God is fickle, the argument is that if you do not obey the Lord and do not follow the Lord and do not take up your cross you will suffer loss.
Esaus birthright was not his salvation. So my argument has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation.
Since when is Israel a person who needs to be saved. Your argument is mute.
sneak what? The fact are not true? Is God faithless? Are men sinful are they faithless? Why do you think Grace is required. because sinful faithless men are incapable of saving themselves.
Yet you continue to say you are not preaching works. Once again, The covenant between God for salvation is an I will covenant, based on the Abraham covenant.
Your trying to insert a conditional covenant (mosaic) which is required to be kept if that nation wants to be blessed. with the unconditional covenant made to Abraham
thats no different than what the jews did. And they crucified Christ when he called them out for it.
If we are faithless. he is faithful he can not deny himself.
You have God keeping his part of the covenant, then making a mistake because he did not see the truth about a persons faith. In orer to do this, he has to deny himself.
Then you are under law. and not under grace. And you better fulfill the law. which means you better never sin again, in fact, you had better have never sinned, For if you keep the whole law and yet stumble in one point, your guilty of the law
You have two choices
Get to God by the law (perfection)
recieve Christ and his fulfilling the law in your stead on the cross. and as abraham did, have his righteousness applied to you
there is no option number three
Since when is Israel a person who needs to be saved. Your argument is mute.
sneak what? The fact are not true? Is God faithless? Are men sinful are they faithless? Why do you think Grace is required. because sinful faithless men are incapable of saving themselves.
Yet you continue to say you are not preaching works. Once again, The covenant between God for salvation is an I will covenant, based on the Abraham covenant.
Your trying to insert a conditional covenant (mosaic) which is required to be kept if that nation wants to be blessed. with the unconditional covenant made to Abraham
thats no different than what the jews did. And they crucified Christ when he called them out for it.
If we are faithless. he is faithful he can not deny himself.
You have God keeping his part of the covenant, then making a mistake because he did not see the truth about a persons faith. In orer to do this, he has to deny himself.
Then you are under law. and not under grace. And you better fulfill the law. which means you better never sin again, in fact, you had better have never sinned, For if you keep the whole law and yet stumble in one point, your guilty of the law
You have two choices
Get to God by the law (perfection)
recieve Christ and his fulfilling the law in your stead on the cross. and as abraham did, have his righteousness applied to you
there is no option number three
Question: Please define salvation (for those holding to OSAS).
1. What is the way of salvation? Acts 16:17
2. What does Romans 13:11 mean when Paul tells Christians in Rome that salvation is nearer than when we believed?
3. Why does Paul say that he is afflicted for the salvation of the Corinthian believers? 2Corinthians 1:6
4. Why does Paul tell the Corinthian believers that he caused them godly sorrow because godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation if they are already saved? 2Corinthians 7:10
5. Why does Paul say that the persecution he is seeing "shall turn to his salvation" through the prayer of the Philippians? Philippians 1:19.
6. Why does Paul tell the believers to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" Philippians 2:12.
7. What is the hope of salvation 1Thessalonians 5:8?
8. Why does Paul say that he endures all things for the elect's sake so that he might obtain salvation? 2Timothy 2:10
9. What does "heir of salvation" mean? Hebrews 1:14
10. Why is the Lord's second coming referred to as our salvation? Hebrews 9:28
1. What is the way of salvation? Acts 16:17
2. What does Romans 13:11 mean when Paul tells Christians in Rome that salvation is nearer than when we believed?
3. Why does Paul say that he is afflicted for the salvation of the Corinthian believers? 2Corinthians 1:6
4. Why does Paul tell the Corinthian believers that he caused them godly sorrow because godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation if they are already saved? 2Corinthians 7:10
5. Why does Paul say that the persecution he is seeing "shall turn to his salvation" through the prayer of the Philippians? Philippians 1:19.
6. Why does Paul tell the believers to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" Philippians 2:12.
7. What is the hope of salvation 1Thessalonians 5:8?
8. Why does Paul say that he endures all things for the elect's sake so that he might obtain salvation? 2Timothy 2:10
9. What does "heir of salvation" mean? Hebrews 1:14
10. Why is the Lord's second coming referred to as our salvation? Hebrews 9:28
If God gives the gift of faith to everyone, and people are justified by faith, not by works of the Law, then that’s Universalism. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and we hope for many things, one of them being eternal life. Faith and belief are two sides of the same coin and I’ll show this below with some verses.
Not everyone has the gift of faith that the Bible says is required. Hence OSAS can turn into either Calvinism or Universalism.
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.
Mark 11:22-24
22“Have faith in God,” Jesus said to them.23“Truly I tell you that if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and has no doubt in his heart but believes that it will happen, it will be done for him. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Not everyone has the gift of faith that the Bible says is required. Hence OSAS can turn into either Calvinism or Universalism.
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.
Mark 11:22-24
22“Have faith in God,” Jesus said to them.23“Truly I tell you that if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and has no doubt in his heart but believes that it will happen, it will be done for him. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
This is why no one treats OSAS seriously, you don't define salvation.
That "gordian knot" you refer to is 10 verses that specifically refer to salvation in the NT.
Which is the second reason no one treats OSAS seriously because you ignore many, many verses.
What a joke, 1,000+ posts on Once saved always saved without even defining what salvation is.
That "gordian knot" you refer to is 10 verses that specifically refer to salvation in the NT.
Which is the second reason no one treats OSAS seriously because you ignore many, many verses.
What a joke, 1,000+ posts on Once saved always saved without even defining what salvation is.
Then that’s universalism or unconditional election based on God’s sovereignty. It can be proved God wants no single person to perish. That puts OSAS in a pickle because it makes God not omnipotent, contradicts Scripture, or both.
The Bible says grace is accessed through our faith and because of that we have the gift of eternal life. That’s a conditional gift. We aren’t in a position to tell God there can’t be conditions as sinners. God’s grace and mercy and our repentance are required.
The Bible says grace is accessed through our faith and because of that we have the gift of eternal life. That’s a conditional gift. We aren’t in a position to tell God there can’t be conditions as sinners. God’s grace and mercy and our repentance are required.
there are many so called salvation's. but there is only one that matters.
the penalty of sin is death, the gift of God is life.
The curse of the law is death, and one must obey every word if they want to enter heaven by their own righteousness. Anyone who sins just once is cursed by the law
as paul said, all have sinned and fall short of Gods standerd, being justified freely
Salvation in this context is not because of any works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy by the washing and renewal of the HS as paul said in Titus 3: 5
Salvation is based on being justified. we are justified (a legal term in the Greek which means declared innocent or not guilty) freely based on another term, redemption. Our justification was paid by Christ on the cross. as he who knew no sin became sin for us. salvation is based also on propitiation or expiation (satisfying Gods wrath) and is shown in the law. as once a year the high priest entered the holy of holy to offer the sacrifice of atonement for the sins of Israel. Sadly, every year they had to do this, because the sacrifice of bulls and goats could never take away sin. so as the lamb of God. he offered the one offering of atonement and made propitiation for the sins of the whole world. And sat at the right hand of God as our true high priest.
Salvation is being made alive in Christ we who were dead. are made alive..
Salvation or eternal life or receiving the gift from God that frees us from the curse of sin and death and the law It can never be earned by what we do or do not do. hence it can never be lost. because Jesus paid it all. As he said on the cross. It is finished..
the penalty of sin is death, the gift of God is life.
The curse of the law is death, and one must obey every word if they want to enter heaven by their own righteousness. Anyone who sins just once is cursed by the law
as paul said, all have sinned and fall short of Gods standerd, being justified freely
Salvation in this context is not because of any works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy by the washing and renewal of the HS as paul said in Titus 3: 5
Salvation is based on being justified. we are justified (a legal term in the Greek which means declared innocent or not guilty) freely based on another term, redemption. Our justification was paid by Christ on the cross. as he who knew no sin became sin for us. salvation is based also on propitiation or expiation (satisfying Gods wrath) and is shown in the law. as once a year the high priest entered the holy of holy to offer the sacrifice of atonement for the sins of Israel. Sadly, every year they had to do this, because the sacrifice of bulls and goats could never take away sin. so as the lamb of God. he offered the one offering of atonement and made propitiation for the sins of the whole world. And sat at the right hand of God as our true high priest.
Salvation is being made alive in Christ we who were dead. are made alive..
Salvation or eternal life or receiving the gift from God that frees us from the curse of sin and death and the law It can never be earned by what we do or do not do. hence it can never be lost. because Jesus paid it all. As he said on the cross. It is finished..
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I don't want to misunderstand. When you say "there are many so called salvation's but only one that matters" are you referring to the use of the term salvation in the NT?
The way I understand what you said is this:
salvation from sin is what matters, all other uses of the term salvation in the NT don't matter in this discussion.
The way I understand what you said is this:
salvation from sin is what matters, all other uses of the term salvation in the NT don't matter in this discussion.