Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Magenta]

Adam and Eve were perfect before the fall

God saw them as "good" along with the rest of His creation... and "very good" after He made Eve.

 

[turbosixx]

Sorry don't follow your point?

If I understand you correctly, you say our faith is really Christ's faith. Hearing and believing God's word does not produce faith in us. So our word study, which I'm not great at, is trying to help resolve where does faith come from. Jesus giving it to us or it's our faith that comes from hearing.
I think the question of who's chosen should answer this too.

 

[rogerg]

What do you mean by this and how does God choose? who's in and who's out?

What I meant by the He only teaches those who He had planned to save is reflected in the below verses.
It tells us that God teaches only those that are to come to Jesus. So, if someone doesn't come to Jesus it is because they
weren't chosen or taught by God, and hence, they won't become saved.

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[rogerg]

If I understand you correctly, you say our faith is really Christ's faith. Hearing and believing God's word does not produce faith in us. So our word study, which I'm not great at, is trying to help resolve where does faith come from. Jesus giving it to us or it's our faith that comes from hearing.
I think the question of who's chosen should answer this too.

If saved, our faith has been given from Christ's faith, by which, we believe in Christ. Until born again, we cannot hear nor believe. The hearing is spiritual hearing - or hearing with spiritual ears - not human hearing.
Please read the below verses:

[1Co 2:12, 14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. ...
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[rogerg]

If I understand you correctly, you say our faith is really Christ's faith. Hearing and believing God's word does not produce faith in us. So our word study, which I'm not great at, is trying to help resolve where does faith come from. Jesus giving it to us or it's our faith that comes from hearing.
I think the question of who's chosen should answer this too.

I should have included this verse too. It may help to clarify.

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[turbosixx]

Yes, they are no more deserving, in some cases way less - look at Saul/Paul for example. There is no other way to say it. God, for His own reasons, chose certain people but not everyone. He did not share what criteria He used was, if He used any. Does He have to? As I mentioned, He may just had arbitrarily chosen certain people for no reason whatsoever besides that He wanted to choose them.

[Rom 9:11, 16 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ...
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This is how I understand how God chooses and it's in line with Him being a righteous judge and showing no partiality. For Romans, in the first 11 chapters Paul is talking to the Jews who are struggling with being God's chosen(by birth) and now no longer being God's chosen based on their birthright because now Christians are God's chosen. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. They feel they should still be the chosen because they are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel).

He is telling them it's God's right to choose whom He will. He gives them an example, that they don't have a problem with from their own history, of when God had done this before. Before Jacob and Esau had done anything, God chose Jacob. By all rights Esau should have been the chosen because he was the elder and it was his birthright but God chose the younger. That is what God is doing to the Jews, it should be their birthright but God chooses those who are the children of promise. Gal. 3:29 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

So those whom God chooses are Christians, those in Christ. It's up to us in hearing the gospel to believe it or not. That is what the apostles did, proclaim the gospel. Those who hear so as to believe have an honest heart but those who do not believe have a hard heart. Here Paul presents them the gospel, what does Paul say about why they didn't believe. Acts 13:46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. Paul puts it on them for not obeying the gospel.

There were those who did obey the gospel by being baptized.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. They're appointed because they obeyed the gospel by being baptized just as Jesus said.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
The whoever is the one believing. Which is anyone who believes. They were to preach to every creature and the one believing and being baptized is the one that is saved.

I'll be out of pocket for a while, I'll get back as soon as I can. I'm enjoying the discussion. Thanks

 

[JimmyTheLock]

What do you mean by this and how does God choose? who's in and who's out?

You can ignore that... it's false calvinist garbage (limited atonement) and is not scriptural

The Father sovereignly decided to make man in His own Image which is why all men have free will. He said in His Word than we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), and we are to be followers of God as dear children (Ephesians 5:1)

God's Word says man is without excuse (Romans 1:20), the grace that brings salvation has come upon all men (Titus 2:11-13)

God's Word says it's not God's will that any perish and He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and He has commanded men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30)

Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men until Himself (John 12:32), and Jesus has tasted of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9)

In light of all these scriptures, we can say for sure that limited atonement taught by John Calvin is false doctrine and is in opposition to what God says.

 

[rogerg]

So those whom God chooses are Christians, those in Christ. It's up to us in hearing the gospel to believe it or not. That is what the apostles did, proclaim the gospel. Those who hear so as to believe have an honest heart but those who do not believe have a hard heart. Here Paul presents them the gospel, what does Paul say about why they didn't believe. Acts 13:46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. Paul puts it on them for not obeying the gospel.

Can't truly believe until saved as in Gal 2:16, and the below.
[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

So those whom God chooses are Christians, those in Christ. It's up to us in hearing the gospel to believe it or not. That is what the apostles did, proclaim the gospel. Those who hear so as to believe have an honest heart but those who do not believe have a hard heart. Here Paul presents them the gospel, what does Paul say about why they didn't believe. Acts 13:46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. Paul puts it on them for not obeying the gospel.

If it is a requirement that someone do something to become saved, then Christ is not the Saviour.
All of the unsaved thrust aside the word of God. They do so because they have not been given the faith of Christ, nor a renewed mind through salvation. Nevertheless, they still stand guilty before God.
Didn't you read the verses I included about natural man not being able to comprehend things spiritual? If unable to comprehend that, then it is impossible for anyone to choose Christ.
The heart of natural man is deceitful and wicked. God must give a new heart through salvation that it be otherwise.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Eze 36:26 KJV]
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

It is the duty of all saved to preach/proclaim the gospel to everyone, yet, only those God had elected to salvation will respond to it.

[2Co 2:15-16 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?

There were those who did obey the gospel by being baptized.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. They're appointed because they obeyed the gospel by being baptized just as Jesus said.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
The whoever is the one believing. Which is anyone who believes. They were to preach to every creature and the one believing and being baptized is the one that is saved.

The verse says those ordained to eternal life believed. Why would anyone choose of themselves to obey the gospel if they didn't first believe? Yet according to you, they obeyed before they believed - with belief coming afterwards - seems illogical to me. Instead, their belief came from being ordained - they were ordained before the foundation of the world: ordained to eternal life first, because of, and from that, they believed - with no action required by them in between. Being ordained had no prerequisite - it stands alone - everything proceeded from and because of it.
The baptism is baptism by the Spirit, not by man.
To believe is from the faith of Christ, not by man.
Yes, the whoever is anyone who believes, but to believe is only given to the whoever by Christ's faith, not of themselves.

I'm thinking we're going around in circles at this point in that we're both repeating the same points, so I don't see
much value in continuing. I think it comes down to a fundamental unresolvable difference between our points of view: you see it that man must do something to become saved, I on the other hand, believe not.
So, let's call a time-out and ponder each other's position. Should either of us have a new revelation, we can restart.

 

[HeIsHere]

OSAS is the FALSE gospel... it's greasy grace, it's changing grace to lawlessness.

Take note, this is what you are doing and note what Paul states about people who accuse others of doing evil that good may come.

And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.
Romans 3:8

People who preach salvation can be lost, nullify the work of the cross, God's saving grace, you think you hate sin but actually you hate God's grace more!!

 

[KALYNA18]

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

Thank you for doing all this work finding these verses. To some it's a game . The Bible from Genesis to Revelation is very clear and precise. Sin separates us from G.od. eve disobeyed snd they were thrown from G.ods protection and his glory. It is a very serious relationship. Revelation says if you in the middle one foot in church the other in the world instead of his word, he will spit you out of his mouth. Says if your not hot or cold but lukewarm he will spit you out. So to many its just a game.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

People who preach salvation can be lost, nullify the work of the cross

People who ignore God's warnings that salvation can be lost... are speaking in behalf of the devil.

You should repent and stop that... it doesn't end well homie!

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Revelation says if you in the middle one foot in church the other in the world instead of his word, he will spit you out of his mouth

And one has to be IN Christ first.... before they can be spit out

This is another one the OSAS peoples lose their marbles over!

 

[HeIsHere]

People who ignore God's warnings that salvation can be lost... are speaking in behalf of the devil.

You should repent and stop that... it doesn't end well homie! View attachment 257058

Never once is there a warning that salvation can be lost, absolutely ridiculous, if it could be lost then it would be called probation not salvation.
Saved is saved, not quasi saved.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Never once is there a warning that salvation can be lost, absolutely ridiculous

Just shows that you don't know anything about the Bible!

You obviously suffer from acute Cherry Pickers Syndrome having only believed a select few happy verses and threw the rest of God's Word in the trash!

Let me guess... you go to a baptist church? I smell some calvinism /; reformed theology

 

[mailmandan]

Never once is there a warning that salvation can be lost, absolutely ridiculous, if it could be lost then it would be called probation not salvation.
Saved is saved, not quasi saved.

Amen! Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door. Don't mind JTL. He suffers from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome and is out to drag you onto his roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security. Misery loves company! He needs to find a good Bible believing Christian church where he can learn the truth and have fellowship with genuine believers. I find it interesting that ALL false religions and cults that promote works-salvation/works righteousness strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a major red flag for me.

 

[John146]

Never once is there a warning that salvation can be lost, absolutely ridiculous, if it could be lost then it would be called probation not salvation.
Saved is saved, not quasi saved.

And if it could be lost, then not one of us has a chance.

 

[Jimbone]

Paul, emphasized, not merely a brief mention, but the word literally means MUST STAY or REMAIN [[in]] God.
Paul, never said, anything about God walking away or leaving.
but rather, God, is "ALWAYS" THERE.
we must then choose to ABIDE [STAY/REMAIN] with God.

so, what is your assessment, of "Those," who do the [[opposite]] of what Paul is Commanding here, by ""(NOT)"" Abiding in Christ?

I believe He is speaking the truth, we must abide in Christ to be saved, and every one of those He saves will, just like He says.
I reject what you are saying this means, but do see how and know why you take it this way. You believe you get credit and have full responsibility for this "choice", and it is just you taking Gods credit for your "choice". Repentance is a gift. The very same Jesus that says we must abide in Him, also says He will lose NONE that the Father has given Him. So you say we can walk away from Him, and I say that's impossible. You guys on the "you can lose your salvation" side seem to think that because I believe this way that I am just running around sinning as much as I can because I know I can't be "unsaved". That is so false it almost makes me angry, and I've never heard 1 person ever make that argument in my life.

It makes me wonder how someone could be truly saved, I mean resurrected spirit, reconciled to His Spirit, and born again from above, made new by Jesus blood, then completely denies the power of Jesus to keep them. They ignore the transformation that opens our eyes and redirects our hearts from an inward focus to wanting to please our King. Our deepest desire now being to please the God that saved us. It's like you don't apply this to what we are saying. It makes me wonder sometimes if you even know what I'm talking about, because if you did you'd know there's no "deciding to walk away" from Him, ever. We are a slave no matter what, a slave to sin or slave to Him. Maybe you think you could walk away from our Savior, but I could NEVER! Nor would I ever try to argue the weakness of my God the way you are here, but most of all I would never try to claim ANY of His glory for saving me for myself as you are also doing here. Do you guys not see this?

 

[Nehemiah6]

I believe He is speaking the truth, we must abide in Christ to be saved, and every one of those He saves will, just like He says.

While abiding in Christ is a necessity, what you have stated is false. That is NOT the basis of salvation, and would lead to uncertainty. I could give you a dozen verses to refute what you have said, but you should search them out for yourself.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I believe He is speaking the truth, we must abide in Christ to be saved, and every one of those He saves will, just like He says.
I reject what you are saying this means, but do see how and know why you take it this way. You believe you get credit and have full responsibility for this "choice", and it is just you taking Gods credit for your "choice". Repentance is a gift. The very same Jesus that says we must abide in Him, also says He will lose NONE that the Father has given Him. So you say we can walk away from Him, and I say that's impossible. You guys on the "you can lose your salvation" side seem to think that because I believe this way that I am just running around sinning as much as I can because I know I can't be "unsaved". That is so false it almost makes me angry, and I've never heard 1 person ever make that argument in my life.

It makes me wonder how someone could be truly saved, I mean resurrected spirit, reconciled to His Spirit, and born again from above, made new by Jesus blood, then completely denies the power of Jesus to keep them. They ignore the transformation that opens our eyes and redirects our hearts from an inward focus to wanting to please our King. Our deepest desire now being to please the God that saved us. It's like you don't apply this to what we are saying. It makes me wonder sometimes if you even know what I'm talking about, because if you did you'd know there's no "deciding to walk away" from Him, ever. We are a slave no matter what, a slave to sin or slave to Him. Maybe you think you could walk away from our Savior, but I could NEVER! Nor would I ever try to argue the weakness of my God the way you are here, but most of all I would never try to claim ANY of His glory for saving me for myself as you are also doing here. Do you guys not see this?

He said, He did not LOSE any, but the son of Perdition.

so, He's only talking about the Disciples, in this Passage of Scripture, not all people who end up Saved.

talk about abusing the meaning to a simple definition!

 

[rogerg]

I believe He is speaking the truth, we must abide in Christ to be saved, and every one of those He saves will, just like He says.
I reject what you are saying this means, but do see how and know why you take it this way. You believe you get credit and have full responsibility for this "choice", and it is just you taking Gods credit for your "choice". Repentance is a gift. The very same Jesus that says we must abide in Him, also says He will lose NONE that the Father has given Him. So you say we can walk away from Him, and I say that's impossible. You guys on the "you can lose your salvation" side seem to think that because I believe this way that I am just running around sinning as much as I can because I know I can't be "unsaved". That is so false it almost makes me angry, and I've never heard 1 person ever make that argument in my life.

It makes me wonder how someone could be truly saved, I mean resurrected spirit, reconciled to His Spirit, and born again from above, made new by Jesus blood, then completely denies the power of Jesus to keep them. They ignore the transformation that opens our eyes and redirects our hearts from an inward focus to wanting to please our King. Our deepest desire now being to please the God that saved us. It's like you don't apply this to what we are saying. It makes me wonder sometimes if you even know what I'm talking about, because if you did you'd know there's no "deciding to walk away" from Him, ever. We are a slave no matter what, a slave to sin or slave to Him. Maybe you think you could walk away from our Savior, but I could NEVER! Nor would I ever try to argue the weakness of my God the way you are here, but most of all I would never try to claim ANY of His glory for saving me for myself as you are also doing here. Do you guys not see this?

Well said!

IMHO when all is said and done, it all comes down to one word only and of its meaning: Saviour. Until and unless one is given by God (as His gift), a trust in, and a comprehension of Him, for those not so blessed, their trust will always be in the satisfying of the law by their deeds, to include that they do not walk away from Jesus. The word Saviour alone, is the point of departure between grace and works, by which, does each move away from the other on a tangent.