Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[JimmyTheLock]

you might as well be talking to a Computer Generated AI when talking to a OSAS'er.

Yeah, I'm wondering is all the OSAS peoples raised a bunch of money and hired a software forim to create a OSAS AI program to spead their false doctrines around the internet... you know, so the OSAS peoples could spend more time doing their favorite sin!

No, it is the object of one's faith that saves not the faith in and of itself.

You obviously haven't read Ephesians 2:8 lately.

And God's Word says He gave man the faith to be saved with (Romans 12:3)

No, you OSAS peoples create your own trouble by rejecting the whole counsel of God... Cherry Pickers!

 

[Cameron143]

The OSAS peoples claim one just has to have a brief moment of faith at some point in their lives and they are eternal saved even if they turn away from the Lord and live like the devil.

They claim turning away from a liefstyle of living in sin to abide In Christ is trying to earn your salvation thru doing good works.

Neither of these are the claims are true of all OSAS believers. More bearing false witness.
1. Anyone in such a condition couldn't possibly be saved.
2. It's not the works, but who performs the works, that determines whether it is a work on our part. We are to work out our salvation. But we are working out isn't random or the best we can figure. We are to work out what God is working in us...Philippians 2:12-13.
Someone already shared these verses earlier with you.
God always calls for a response on our part. But our response isn't to attempt to do what is spoken of. Rather, our response is to learn how to live with Him working His power through us.

 

[rogerg]

Part I due to size

I don't see those who were seeking to be justified by circumcision as not being saved. Paul tells them to keep standing firm and IF they received circumcision then they would have problems.
5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

If someone is truly saved, they would only choose to be justified by Christ, and not by anything they could do. Both cannot be correct.

The problems being they would be severed from Christ and fall from grace.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.
You cannot sever something that is not attached. You cannot fall from a position you have not attained.

Did you read verse 5:10? Again, Paul is edifying of the doctrine that salvation is only through Christ and informing them that, that
of which someone else was trying to teach them was wrong. Paul was certain nevertheless, and only through the Lord, they would "be none otherwise minded". This means that through/because of Christ, they could not fall from grace, but he who was trying to teach them the false doctrine of works, would face their judgment.

[Gal 5:10 KJV]
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

Here is a good example of being severed from Christ.
Jn. 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
Jesus says branch IN ME. I think we can both agree "in me" is a saved condition yet they can be taken away.

No, actually, I don't agree. Those who do not bring forth spiritual fruit are the unsaved. They may reside "in Christ" for a while but in time will eventually fall away without doing so. Notice in Luk 8:13, they brought forth no fruit.

[Luk 8:13 KJV]
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

However, in Luk 8:15, those who are saved are they who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit), are they on the "good ground", who bring forth much fruit.

[Luk 8:15 KJV]
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

 

[rogerg]

Part II

May I suggest not leaning too much on the KJV. We don't speak the kings english so it makes some things harder to understand. Which could lead to getting the wrong idea. Don't get me wrong, I love the KJV. It's a great word for word translation but there are better word for word translations that use today's english. It doesn't change the meaning, it just uses language we naturally understand. The verses you posted about the faith of Jesus. You had me questioning myself which is good and what this is all about. After looking into it I found that the KJV says "of" but newer ones say faith "in" Jesus which is more accurate and make more sense understanding the definition of faith. A good example would be KJV use of "rightly dividing". The Greek word used there has nothing to do with division. The 16th century man would understand it as accuracy or precision. There is a Greek word for dividing and it's not used there but there are those who build a doctrine on that word being about division.

The definitions of the words are the definition of the words regardless of the version we may use. If we follow the instructions the Bible has set forth for its interpretation, the chance of going astray and coming to an incorrect understanding are extremely slight indeed.

Well, so much for your "version" theory. Contrary to it, the difference between versions, well, does make a difference - a big one. Respectfully, if you were convinced by the "newer ones" because they say "in" instead of "of", I suggest that you go back and look again, this time considering the word's case. I posted it below for ease of reference. I only highlighted one example as that should suffice for our purposes. Notice "the faith of" in the faith OF (Christ) is word G4102. If we look at G4102, we can see that its case is genitive. I'll post that also - the "G" in the "N-GSF" for 4102, means genitive. Genitive denotes ownership, as in the owner of the faith being Christ: OF (not in), or, said another way, Christ's faith. Conversely, we can see a distinction with G4100, (the "IN", not "OF") - because it is NOT in the genitive case, the "in", therefore is correct meaning into, unto, to, towards, for, among. So, both words have been correctly translated by the KJV, and appears not by the version you referenced.

Gal 2:16
Knowing G1492 that G3754 a man G444 is G1344 ➔ not G3756 justified G1344 by G1537 the works G2041 of the law, G3551 but G3362 by G1223 the faith G4102 of Jesus G2424 Christ, G5547 even G2532 we G2249 have believed G4100 in G1519 Jesus G2424 Christ, G5547 that G2443 we might be justified G1344 by G1537 the faith G4102 of Christ, G5547 and G2532 not G3756 by G1537 the works G2041 of the law: G3551 for G1360 by G1537 the works G2041 of the law G3551 shall G1344 ➔ no G3756 G3956 flesh G4561 be justified. G1344


the faith
PHRASE
g4102
πίστεως πίστιςpistis
N-GSF

Speech:NounCase:GenitiveNumber:SingularGender:Feminine
Definition of "Genitive"
The genitive case refers to the case used for a noun, pronoun, or adjective to show ownership.
E.g. His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.

The following is for "believed in". So from this, the distinction between the two should be evident.



have believed
PHRASE
g4100
ἐπιστεύσαμεν πιστεύωpisteuō
V-AAI-1P


Therefore, we can rest completely assured of God has clearly informed us that true faith can only originate from/with Christ and is given only to those whom He saves via the Holy Spirit, which faith, will then bring us to believe in Him as Saviour. So, it all starts with, and ends with, Christ, because He is the Saviour and man is not.

 

[turbosixx]

If someone is truly saved, they would only choose to be justified by Christ, and not by anything they could do. Both cannot be correct.



Did you read verse 5:10? Again, Paul is edifying of the doctrine that salvation is only through Christ and informing them that, that
of which someone else was trying to teach them was wrong. Paul was certain nevertheless, and only through the Lord, they would "be none otherwise minded". This means that through/because of Christ, they could not fall from grace, but he who was trying to teach them the false doctrine of works, would face their judgment.

[Gal 5:10 KJV]
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.



No, actually, I don't agree. Those who do not bring forth spiritual fruit are the unsaved. They may reside "in Christ" for a while but in time will eventually fall away without doing so. Notice in Luk 8:13, they brought forth no fruit.

[Luk 8:13 KJV]
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

However, in Luk 8:15, those who are saved are they who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit), are they on the "good ground", who bring forth much fruit.

[Luk 8:15 KJV]
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

Thanks for this debate. I know it's not easy to do your best to get someone to see to no avail.

Due to your comments at the end I'd like to start by stating how I currently understand things. I agree faith can only come from God. How does it come. So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. It's God's word that teaches us of Christ so we can believe. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized. I'll stop there for now.

From my perspective, the scriptures would be worded differently the way you explain them. I'll show you what I mean. I'll post the scripture then word it the way "I hear" you explain it.

5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
For freedom Christ has set us free; therefore firm you stand, you will not again submit to a yoke of slavery.

5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, you are not in Christ.

5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law..
I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is not saved and is obligated to keep the whole law.

5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
You never were in Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you are not in grace..

5:10 I have confidence in you in the Lord, that you will adopt no other view;
I have confidence the Lord will keep you from adopting another view;
If that is how you understand them, they could have easily been written that way.

Those who do not bring forth spiritual fruit are the unsaved. They may reside "in Christ" for a while but in time will eventually fall away without doing so.

Your understanding of in Christ and mine are very different.

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Maybe we need to define what it means to believe.
Luke 8:12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
God is telling us the devil prevented these from believing and being saved.

And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.
God says they believed. So we go from those who do not believe to those who do. The other two we are not told they believe, it's implied.

And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.
What causes them to bear no fruit? It tells us right there in the verse.

Gotta go for now.

 

[rogerg]

Due to your comments at the end I'd like to start by stating how I currently understand things. I agree faith can only come from God. How does it come. So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. It's God's word that teaches us of Christ so we can believe. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized. I'll stop there for now.

Spiritual hearing must be given to someone by God. It is not human hearing that is in view, but spiritual hearing. Observe that their eyes and ears and ears first had to be blessed by God for them to see and hear.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

[Jhn 8:43, 47 KJV]
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. ...
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

God teaches only those whom He had chosen to save. They alone are taught of the God and brought to Christ, not everyone is nor will be, and so, not everyone can come to Christ, and therefore, those not brought, cannot be saved.

[Jhn 6:45 KJV]
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Regarding Romans 10:17, the faith is Christ's faith; the hearing is the hearing from the gospel of (or the comprehension of) Christ's faith, and only comes to someone by God's decree that they hear spiritually. Through that spiritual hearing, those saved come to know that it was Christ's faith alone that brought salvation forth.

See Mat 1:16 above for further explanation of hearing.

[Rom 10:17 KJV] 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Sorry, turbosixx, I don't follow your point regarding the list of verses that you included.

Your understanding of in Christ and mine are very different.

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Maybe we need to define what it means to believe.
Luke 8:12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
God is telling us the devil prevented these from believing and being saved.

And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.
God says they believed. So we go from those who do not believe to those who do. The other two we are not told they believe, it's implied.

And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.
What causes them to bear no fruit? It tells us right there in the verse.

Gotta go for now.

Okay talk to you later have a good evening - I'll finish my reply.

So, I agree that the devil prevents the unsaved from seeing or hearing. They who believed for a while bore no fruit because their belief was a man produced belief, not a God given belief - a man produced belief is not based upon the true gospel because the true gospel is unknown to them until and unless they become saved: a belief is of the human mind but not of a spiritual heart. To truly believe, a new heart must first be given to them by God. That means since it was not of God, their spiritual blindness and deafness remained because they did not possess true spiritual wisdom. They heard, but only with human ears (so to speak), but not with God given spiritual ears. I read nothing in those verses that tell us that they had any fruit whatsoever: they brought "no fruit to perfection", that means no fruit. It is like the servant who was given one talent and brought forth to his master no increase and was condemned for it.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yeah, I'm wondering is all the OSAS peoples raised a bunch of money and hired a software forim to create a OSAS AI program to spead their false doctrines around the internet... you know, so the OSAS peoples could spend more time doing their favorite sin! View attachment 256966





You obviously haven't read Ephesians 2:8 lately.

And God's Word says He gave man the faith to be saved with (Romans 12:3)

No, you OSAS peoples create your own trouble by rejecting the whole counsel of God... Cherry Pickers! View attachment 256967

Really so according to your logic God bequeaths saving faith and then He takes it away.

I am not cherry picking, but I know you are not interpreting scripture correctly, the "measure of faith" is the faith of the believer AFTER they have crossed over into being justified by faith.

And no God does not give "saving faith" to a non-believer you are not correctly understanding Ephesians 2:8.

But then how you could correctly interpret any of scripture when you have not even figured out OSAS is the Gospel.

 

[turbosixx]

Part II



The definitions of the words are the definition of the words regardless of the version we may use. If we follow the instructions the Bible has set forth for its interpretation, the chance of going astray and coming to an incorrect understanding are extremely slight indeed.

Well, so much for your "version" theory. Contrary to it, the difference between versions, well, does make a difference - a big one. Respectfully, if you were convinced by the "newer ones" because they say "in" instead of "of", I suggest that you go back and look again, this time considering the word's case. I posted it below for ease of reference. I only highlighted one example as that should suffice for our purposes. Notice "the faith of" in the faith OF (Christ) is word G4102. If we look at G4102, we can see that its case is genitive. I'll post that also - the "G" in the "N-GSF" for 4102, means genitive. Genitive denotes ownership, as in the owner of the faith being Christ: OF (not in), or, said another way, Christ's faith. Conversely, we can see a distinction with G4100, (the "IN", not "OF") - because it is NOT in the genitive case, the "in", therefore is correct meaning into, unto, to, towards, for, among. So, both words have been correctly translated by the KJV, and appears not by the version you referenced.

Gal 2:16
Knowing G1492 that G3754 a man G444 is G1344 ➔ not G3756 justified G1344 by G1537 the works G2041 of the law, G3551 but G3362 by G1223 the faith G4102 of Jesus G2424 Christ, G5547 even G2532 we G2249 have believed G4100 in G1519 Jesus G2424 Christ, G5547 that G2443 we might be justified G1344 by G1537 the faith G4102 of Christ, G5547 and G2532 not G3756 by G1537 the works G2041 of the law: G3551 for G1360 by G1537 the works G2041 of the law G3551 shall G1344 ➔ no G3756 G3956 flesh G4561 be justified. G1344


the faith
PHRASE
g4102
πίστεως πίστιςpistis
N-GSF

Speech:NounCase:GenitiveNumber:SingularGender:Feminine
Definition of "Genitive"
The genitive case refers to the case used for a noun, pronoun, or adjective to show ownership.
E.g. His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.

The following is for "believed in". So from this, the distinction between the two should be evident.



have believed
PHRASE
g4100
ἐπιστεύσαμεν πιστεύωpisteuō
V-AAI-1P


Therefore, we can rest completely assured of God has clearly informed us that true faith can only originate from/with Christ and is given only to those whom He saves via the Holy Spirit, which faith, will then bring us to believe in Him as Saviour. So, it all starts with, and ends with, Christ, because He is the Saviour and man is not.

Maybe I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "faith of Christ". Could you please clarify.
I agree 100% it starts and ends with Christ but we have to do something If it's ALL Jesus and none of us everyone is saved. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.....6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I do see faith coming from Christ by our hearing the word, our believing the word which creates faith(trust, conviction, assurance) in us causing us to respond to the gospel and us obeying the gospel.

It's my understanding G4102 is a word not a phrase. Looking at the Greek for 2:16, the word "of" is not there so to make it easier to understand I believe the interpreters put a word in there creating the phrase. I use BibleHub. When I pull up Gal. 2:16 and look at both the Strong's and Lexicon for that verse, G4102 is alone and we see the phase "in Jesus" . So "of" or "in" is there because of the interpreter. However, if we look at the next chapter there is a verse that plainly states our faith "in" Jesus. The word "in" is there in the Greek. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Another good one is Col.1:4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; Again, the Greek word for "in" is there. I would be more trusting in the words that are actually there rather than someone's interpreting and adding a word. Depending where you look for the word they added we find both "of" and "in".

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Really so according to your logic God bequeaths saving faith and then He takes it away.

No, when man decides to sin... he turns away from God.

the "measure of faith" is the faith of the believer AFTER they have crossed over into being justified by faith.

Actually the scripture says God have given ALL men the measure of faith... meaning, ALL people have the possibility of getting saved since scripture plainly says it's God will that all be saved. If one doesn't get saved, it's not God's fault.

OSAS is the Gospel.

OSAS is the FALSE gospel... it's greasy grace, it's changing grace to lawlessness.


The Lord desires to have fellowship with those that are like Him, which excludes angels and all other created being as they were not created in His Image. Mankind is the only being God created in His Own Image. We are valued above ALL other creatures because God's intention in creating us is to be in fellowship with man on God's level!

Speaking of those that have been born again Ephesians 2:6 tells us God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus. In other words, He wants fellowship with beings who are like Himself... who CHOOSE to be with Him! Who CHOOSE to turn away from darkness in order to walk and live in agreement with the Lord.

This is the whole purpose for our existence! Not only to desire to be with the Lord... but to put our faith and desire in to action and turn away from darkness, from things that the Lord does not approve of so we can fellowship with Him in righteousness.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOES righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

When someone derides to sin, they are willingly turning away from the Lord, on purpose after having come to the age of accountability where they know the difference between right and wrong (not speaking of little children)

There is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5), and the Lord has no fellowship with darkness (2 Corinthians 6:14)... so those that sin are separated from the Lord by their willingness to turn away from Him and walk in darkness.

1 John 1:6
if we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

The OSAS peoples have been fooled intro believing one can do sin and not be separated from the Lord! This is not taught in God's Word. I get it that nobody wants to talk about what happens to those that continue in sin... but it's better to talk about what God's Word says about it than to make up a fake gospel that says "you can never ever never never lose your salvation"

This means if one continues in sin they must say this person is still saved because if they don't they are acknowledging that OSAS is false doctrine which will make them look stupid so as a matter of pride and in the interest of never being seen as being in error... they have to say those that continue in sin as still; saved in their view.

This obviously is NOT what God's Word teaches... and the OSAS peoples wouldn't know that because they don't accept all the Lord has said in His Word about it. They can't, because if they did they would have to admit that OSAS is false doctrine and they will never ever never never do that.

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

One cannot obtain mercy after they have sinned without confessing their sin unto the Lord and turning away from their sin. The old timers called it "admit it and quit it" and then we should make no provisions for the flesh to continue in sin (Romans 13:14) by walking after the Spirit so we aren't fulfilling the desires of the flesh (Galatians 5:16-26)

What the OSAS peoples won't tell you because they don't accept the validity of this is... God is NOT mocked... whatsoever a man sows, that shall He also reap he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. (Galatians 6:7-8)

They'll agree that when one is born again they did sow to the spirit and reaped life... but then they deny and ignore the rest of Galatians 6:7-8 claiming if one sows to the flesh (sins) they do not rep corruption.

In Gal 6:8, the word corruption is...

G5356
fthora from G5351; decay, i.e. ruin -- corruption, destroy, perish.

G5351
strengthened from phthio (to pine or waste); properly, to shrivel or wither, i.e. to spoil or to ruin, by moral influences, to deprave): -- corrupt (self), defile, destroy.

If one claims we DO reap corruption when we sin, then they are admitting they do not believe OSAS / Eternal security doctrine (and sadly many of their friends will forsake them!).... and if one claims we DO NOT reap what we sow, then according to Gal 6:7, that would be mocking God!

Adam and Eve were given eternal life by the Lord when He created them... but when they sinned against God they became corrupt and died spiritually and became separated from God. So Gal 6:7,8 is quite the quandary, quite the state of uncertainty and perplexity for the adherents of OSAS doctrine.

The OSAS peoples don't know that salvation is on God's terms and what Jesus did at the Cross of Calvary... does not eliminate or do away with seedtime and harvest. God is not mocked!

In Jesus' classic teaching on sowing and reaping, He said "Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?" (Mark 4:13)

God created man in His Image, therefore just like God... mankind reaps what he sows and is responsible for the seeds he plants. If man does good, he'll receive good... if he does evil, he'll receive evil.

Romans 2:9-11
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[turbosixx]

I'll comment on the rest later but this stuck out to me.

God teaches only those whom He had chosen to save.

What do you mean by this and how does God choose? who's in and who's out?

 

[rogerg]

Maybe I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "faith of Christ". Could you please clarify.
I agree 100% it starts and ends with Christ but we have to do something If it's ALL Jesus and none of us everyone is saved. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.....6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I do see faith coming from Christ by our hearing the word, our believing the word which creates faith(trust, conviction, assurance) in us causing us to respond to the gospel and us obeying the gospel.

It's my understanding G4102 is a word not a phrase. Looking at the Greek for 2:16, the word "of" is not there so to make it easier to understand I believe the interpreters put a word in there creating the phrase. I use BibleHub. When I pull up Gal. 2:16 and look at both the Strong's and Lexicon for that verse, G4102 is alone and we see the phase "in Jesus" . So "of" or "in" is there because of the interpreter. However, if we look at the next chapter there is a verse that plainly states our faith "in" Jesus. The word "in" is there in the Greek. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Another good one is Col.1:4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; Again, the Greek word for "in" is there. I would be more trusting in the words that are actually there rather than someone's interpreting and adding a word. Depending where you look for the word they added we find both "of" and "in".

I don't believe that we have to do anything at all: everything pertaining to salvation is given as a gift from God to those whom He had chosen (individually) for it; that is, we are just salvation's recipients. Not everyone becomes saved because not everyone had been chosen by God to become saved. Since salvation is completely a free gift in all respects, then all of salvation's attributes are also given freely as part of it. Regarding the "all" in the verses you quoted, it has to be viewed in light of several other verses to find who the "all" are - the "all" does not represent everyone. So, in looking at the below verses, we can see that the "all" are all are only those whom the Father gave to Christ to become saved. IMHO, we usually shouldn't depend upon any one verse to come to a correct understanding of biblical doctrine: the spiritual must be compared to the spiritual.

[Jhn 6:36-37, 39 KJV]
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

I do see faith coming from Christ by our hearing the word, our believing the word which creates faith(trust, conviction, assurance) in us causing us to respond to the gospel and us obeying the gospel.

It's my understanding G4102 is a word not a phrase. Looking at the Greek for 2:16, the word "of" is not there so to make it easier to understand I believe the interpreters put a word in there creating the phrase. I use BibleHub. When I pull up Gal. 2:16 and look at both the Strong's and Lexicon for that verse, G4102 is alone and we see the phase "in Jesus" . So "of" or "in" is there because of the interpreter. However, if we look at the next chapter there is a verse that plainly states our faith "in" Jesus. The word "in" is there in the Greek. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Another good one is Col.1:4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; Again, the Greek word for "in" is there. I would be more trusting in the words that are actually there rather than someone's interpreting and adding a word. Depending where you look for the word they added we find both "of" and "in".

I think the "hearing" is spiritual hearing, not human earthly hearing, which to be able to have one must first be given by being saved, not the reverse. So, we cannot hear until then. Regarding 4102 you are correct, the word "of" isn't there and 4102 IS a word. Did you happen to read my post #7264 above? I tried to lay it all out there. If you haven't, please do so and we can discuss further then. If you have, please let me know that too - I think "of" is spelled out there in detail so as to be indisputable - a word's case must also be taken into consideration. Regarding "faith in Christ", as Gal 2:16 also tells us, our believing in Christ comes as a result of His faith being imputed to us. It says: "by the faith OF Christ even we have BELIEVED in Christ" - the "OF" therefore bringing forth the "IN". Regarding "faith in Christ" of Gal 3:26, it is referring to the faith that exists WITHIN Christ - or said another way - Christ's faith, as in Gal 2:16, but said a different way - it is not referring to our faith towards, or in, Christ. Don't misunderstand me, those saved do, and must, come to true faith IN Christ but it is from salvation, not from ourselves. It's going to be difficult for us to discuss this until you've read my post 7264 - I'd rather not have to repeat again here, so I'll stop until I hear back from you.

 

[turbosixx]

I don't believe that we have to do anything at all: everything pertaining to salvation is given as a gift from God to those whom He had chosen (individually) for it; that is, we are just salvation's recipients. Not everyone becomes saved because not everyone had been chosen by God to become saved. Since salvation is completely a free gift in all respects, then all of salvation's attributes are also given freely as part of it. Regarding the "all" in the verses you quoted, it has to be viewed in light of several other verses to find who the "all" are - the "all" does not represent everyone. So, in looking at the below verses, we can see that the "all" are all are only those whom the Father gave to Christ to become saved. IMHO, we usually shouldn't depend upon any one verse to come to a correct understanding of biblical doctrine: the spiritual must be compared to the spiritual.

[Jhn 6:36-37, 39 KJV]
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.



I think the "hearing" is spiritual hearing, not human earthly hearing, which to be able to have one must first be given by being saved, not the reverse. So, we cannot hear until then. Regarding 4102 you are correct, the word "of" isn't there and 4102 IS a word. Did you happen to read my post #7264 above? I tried to lay it all out there. If you haven't, please do so and we can discuss further then. If you have, please let me know that too - I think "of" is spelled out there in detail so as to be indisputable - a word's case must also be taken into consideration. Regarding "faith in Christ", as Gal 2:16 also tells us, our believing in Christ comes as a result of His faith being imputed to us. It says: "by the faith OF Christ even we have BELIEVED in Christ" - the "OF" therefore bringing forth the "IN". Regarding "faith in Christ" of Gal 3:26, it is referring to the faith that exists WITHIN Christ - or said another way - Christ's faith, as in Gal 2:16, but said a different way - it is not referring to our faith towards, or in, Christ. Don't misunderstand me, those saved do, and must, come to true faith IN Christ but it is from salvation, not from ourselves. It's going to be difficult for us to discuss this until you've read my post 7264 - I'd rather not have to repeat again here, so I'll stop until I hear back from you.

I did read your post #7264, that's what I was responding to. I think the "we don't have to do anything" all comes down to a root question I ask post #7270.

 

[rogerg]

I'll comment on the rest later but this stuck out to me.


What do you mean by this and how does God choose? who's in and who's out?

God gives no reason as to why He chose who He chose - it's His completely prerogative so He doesn't and didn't inform us - He is God. Possibly He just randomly picked people at His good pleasure before the beginning of the world to save - no one deserves it anyway - of ourselves, none of us should be saved.

[Eph 1:4 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


[Rom 9:11, 15-16 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[rogerg]

I did read your post #7264, that's what I was responding to. I think the "we don't have to do anything" all comes down to a root question I ask post #7270.

If you did then I don't understand your comment of 7268? The "OF" is manifested by the case used - it depicts ownership, the "in" does not.

 

[turbosixx]

God gives no reason as to why He chose who He chose - it's His completely prerogative so He doesn't and didn't inform us - He is God. Possibly He just randomly picked people at His good pleasure before the beginning of the world to save - no one deserves it anyway - of ourselves, none of us should be saved.

[Eph 1:4 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


[Rom 9:11, 15-16 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

You are correct. We are all sinners and we all deserve to be punished.
Since we all deserve punishment and God is a righteous and just judge, where is the justice in showing partiality by punishing those that deserve punishment and then sparing a chosen few who deserve the same punishment?

 

[rogerg]

You are correct. We are all sinners and we all deserve to be punished.
Since we all deserve punishment and God is a righteous and just judge, where is the justice in showing partiality by punishing those that deserve punishment and then sparing a chosen few who deserve the same punishment?

The justice is that Christ died in order that those He chose to save could/would become saved. He did not do so for everyone.

 

[turbosixx]

If you did then I don't understand your comment of 7268? The "OF" is manifested by the case used - it depicts ownership, the "in" does not.

I think our current line of discussion "should" resolve this. Or not.

 

[rogerg]

I think our current line of discussion "should" resolve this. Or not.

Sorry don't follow your point?

 

[turbosixx]

The justice is that Christ died in order that those He chose to save could/would become saved. He did not do so for everyone.

I'm sorry but that doesn't answer the question. The chosen Jesus saves were no more deserving than those He did not chose. That is still showing partiality. Maybe you could phrase it another way?

 

[rogerg]

I'm sorry but that doesn't answer the question. The chosen Jesus saves were no more deserving than those He did not chose. That is still showing partiality. Maybe you could phrase it another way?

Yes, they are no more deserving, in some cases way less - look at Saul/Paul for example. There is no other way to say it. God, for His own reasons, chose certain people but not everyone. He did not share what criteria He used was, if He used any. Does He have to? As I mentioned, He may just had arbitrarily chosen certain people for no reason whatsoever besides that He wanted to choose them.

[Rom 9:11, 16 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ...
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.