Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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I would say that obedience is 100% impossible outside of Christ, which it follows that one would have to be saved BEFORE we even have the ability to be obedient. Are you suggesting we are obedient TO be saved? I believe the obedience you're asking about is a result of being saved, and I do not believe we keep 100% perfect obedience after we are saved. I wish I did, I desire to, but even that desire is only because of His power, but I still fall short way more than I'd like to, or even like to admit. Are you claiming sinless perfection after salvation?
As far as the second part of your question about those that are "saved" but turn away. John tells us plainly that they were NEVER saved. We don't get saved then unsaved, then saved, it's not like that at all. Once we are born again, that is our dead spirits resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit, He doesn't cut us off again, He empowers us to follow Him to the end by His Spirit. We may be disciplined when we step outside His will, but He loses NONE of those the Fathers given Him. If they leave Him that means they were never His.
I honestly don't see a single way your questions contradict anything I said. It all lines up perfectly to me.
As far as the second part of your question about those that are "saved" but turn away. John tells us plainly that they were NEVER saved. We don't get saved then unsaved, then saved, it's not like that at all. Once we are born again, that is our dead spirits resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit, He doesn't cut us off again, He empowers us to follow Him to the end by His Spirit. We may be disciplined when we step outside His will, but He loses NONE of those the Fathers given Him. If they leave Him that means they were never His.
I honestly don't see a single way your questions contradict anything I said. It all lines up perfectly to me.
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Yeah, that's not true at all. Limited atonement is not biblical...
The Father sovereignly decided to make man in His own Image which is why all men have free will. He said in His Word than we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), and we are to be followers of God as dear children (Ephesians 5:1)
God's Word says man is without excuse (Romans 1:20), the grace that brings salvation has come upon all men (Titus 2:11-13)
God's Word says it's not God's will that any perish and He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and He has commanded men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30)
Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men until Himself (John 12:32), and Jesus has tasted of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9)
In light of all these scriptures, we can say for sure that limited atonement taught by John Calvin is false doctrine and is in opposition to what God says.
Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children
Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Titus 2:11,12For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Acts 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Hebrews 2:9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The Father sovereignly decided to make man in His own Image which is why all men have free will. He said in His Word than we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), and we are to be followers of God as dear children (Ephesians 5:1)
God's Word says man is without excuse (Romans 1:20), the grace that brings salvation has come upon all men (Titus 2:11-13)
God's Word says it's not God's will that any perish and He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and He has commanded men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30)
Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men until Himself (John 12:32), and Jesus has tasted of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9)
In light of all these scriptures, we can say for sure that limited atonement taught by John Calvin is false doctrine and is in opposition to what God says.
Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children
Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Titus 2:11,12For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Acts 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Hebrews 2:9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
No free will. After the fall in the Garden, they were no longer in God's image, or they (and we), would never die because God cannot die.
The fall blinded mankind and killed mankind spiritually, thus taking away free will.
The "all men" are only the "all " that the Father gave to the Son for salvation. Otherwise, everyone would become saved, but not all will be, hence, the verse Magenta just posted. So, wherever you find "all" in the Bible regarding salvation, think that the "all" are those the Father gave to the Son but not including everyone born.
No, don't think so. Actually, they validate that only certain ones can/will become saved. You didn't include 8:28: only those called were foreknown by Him - not being foreknown, they weren't called according to His purpose.
[Rom 8:28 NIV] 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Do you understand the "he also did predestinate", part of 8:29? Only those that He called will be conformed to the image of His son. If they were predestinated by God, then it can't be of, by, or from, their will or actions, right?
I'll try to finish the rest of my reply to you tomorrow or maybe after dinner depending.
The fall blinded mankind and killed mankind spiritually, thus taking away free will.
The "all men" are only the "all " that the Father gave to the Son for salvation. Otherwise, everyone would become saved, but not all will be, hence, the verse Magenta just posted. So, wherever you find "all" in the Bible regarding salvation, think that the "all" are those the Father gave to the Son but not including everyone born.
No, don't think so. Actually, they validate that only certain ones can/will become saved. You didn't include 8:28: only those called were foreknown by Him - not being foreknown, they weren't called according to His purpose.
[Rom 8:28 NIV] 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Do you understand the "he also did predestinate", part of 8:29? Only those that He called will be conformed to the image of His son. If they were predestinated by God, then it can't be of, by, or from, their will or actions, right?
I'll try to finish the rest of my reply to you tomorrow or maybe after dinner depending.
Fake news! You must have been listening to the false doctrines of that calvin fellow... you know, the guy that had people murdered for not following his false doctrines.
Limited Atonement is FALSE
Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children
Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Yes, let's take a look shall we???
Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
The Lord foreknew ALL people before they were ever born... so He privided a way for ALL to be saved.
And now you want to claim these verses are lies somehow???
Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
More calvinist lunacy!
No need... I've heard all the calvinist scripture twisting before....
How come no calvinist guy comes along as says... "Hey man, I'm one of the ones the Lord decided should not be saved... so I guess I'm gonbna burn in hell and won't be seein you fellas in Heaven... I'm toast".
Every noticed the calvinists always claim they were selected by the Lord but those other people... God created them for no other purposed but for them to burn in hell for all eternity.
The god of calvinism is a monster and is not the True God... who spoke the scriptures I posted above that prove limited atonement is just more lies from satan.
Limited Atonement is FALSE
Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children
Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Yes, let's take a look shall we???
Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
The Lord foreknew ALL people before they were ever born... so He privided a way for ALL to be saved.
And now you want to claim these verses are lies somehow???
Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
More calvinist lunacy!
No need... I've heard all the calvinist scripture twisting before....
How come no calvinist guy comes along as says... "Hey man, I'm one of the ones the Lord decided should not be saved... so I guess I'm gonbna burn in hell and won't be seein you fellas in Heaven... I'm toast".
Every noticed the calvinists always claim they were selected by the Lord but those other people... God created them for no other purposed but for them to burn in hell for all eternity.
The god of calvinism is a monster and is not the True God... who spoke the scriptures I posted above that prove limited atonement is just more lies from satan.
Peter also sets before us an undeniable proof that those who are saved by the grace of God can never be lost (John 10:27-29). Those who are in Christ are secure in Him. We are kept and preserved by the grace and power of God. Nothing can ever sever one of the Lord’s own from Him. As our Lord prayed for Peter, He prays for us; and God will not charge any with sin for whom Christ undertakes to be an Advocate (1 John 2:1-2; Romans 4:8).
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand
1 Jn 2:1-2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Rom 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand
1 Jn 2:1-2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Rom 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
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In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, see post #51 from the link below:
Hebrews 6 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
In regard to Hebrews 10:26-39, see post #19 from the link below:
That Hebrews 10v26 Thread - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
Context and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine is imperative here.
Hebrews 6 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
In regard to Hebrews 10:26-39, see post #19 from the link below:
That Hebrews 10v26 Thread - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
Context and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine is imperative here.
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