Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Jimbone]

It's not automatic. If you sin after you're initially saved, you must repent to he forgiven. You can lose your salvation.

I understand what you're saying 100%. I used to think the exact same way. I just couldn't wrap my mind around that point, if I willingly choose to put my faith in Christ and am saved, does He then remove my free will? Could I not choose to stop following Him, as crazy and impossible as I feel that would be, am I no longer allowed? I felt just like you about it, it didn't make sense to lo longer have that option open to me, even though I could never imagine making that decision.

The thing I've realized it it is not our choice, it can't be, if it had anything to do with our choice that would make our choice a work would it not? If it is ANYTHING "we do", then that becomes a requirement and something you have to do to be saved, and yet we are told there is nothing we can "do" to save ourselves. Right? I want to be very careful here and not try to seem, as though I'm saying that our decisions have nothing to do with it, as if the two are disconnected, because they can't be. Love is not love with no choice, and we are very clearly told in scripture that we have to choose. We are also told that repentance is is a gift we are given by God, we can take no credit for our decision to repent, or I should say honestly say that "I" can take no credit for it in my life.

I come from a place where I went to the front of the church when called, I made that decision to "give my life to Jesus" in front of everyone. I even went later with them and was baptized as well to seal it, yet was not saved and did not know Him. However once I hit the hardest trial of my life, so far, and was brought to my knees in complete defeat, at a time after I was told and thought I was a Christian and saved, I hit my knees in unbelief thinking there was no power in that "Christian stuff" and that it didn't help me at all in my last 2 years of suffering. I just hit the end of any kind of belief in my own power and my ability to handle my problems. I saw my efforts for the futile attempt they truly were and couldn't do it anymore. I didn't even realize what was happening in that moment, but I was being granted repentance. I woke up the next day all new. He open my eye's to what happen throughout that day brought my to truth, and has been leading me these 10 years since. I could testify all day long but I'm trying to keep it as short as possible. I'm just making the point that when I thought it was my decision I was not saved, yet when I had no clue what was happening I was saved. I know it does not happen this way for everyone and some people may have really been saved when they repeated the sinners prayer, I'm just sharing that I do not believe it is "our decision" at all that saves us, even though it may very well play a part in our reconciliation, it does not depend or require it in any way. It sounds better when I just say that we get no glory for it. God gets ALL glory for our salvation right?

I know we Christians like to clash on it's either "this" or "that", but I believe that God working His sovereignty with/within/over our "free" will is one of the greatest mysteries of creation. I do not believe that we can lose our salvation anymore, just like I don't believe it's our choice that saves us. Jesus loses NONE the Father gives Him, if they left us they were never of us, He never knew them. It's a deep question and I understand your thinking, but it's so much bigger than just "us" it's all about HIM.

 

[mailmandan]

Out of context scriptures you've cited. You can think what you like but the scriptural facts remain that salvation can be lost. A casual study of the Hebrew letter will bear that out. The newly converted Hebrews were warned about the dangers of renouncing Christ and embracing again their old religious beliefs.

This sheds light on the issue. Hebrews 4:1 - Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

 

[DJT_47]

Salvation cannot be lost. If it could, it would mean that Christ's offering was insufficient to bring forth eternal salvation but only
a transient salvation.

What do you think these verses mean:

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Phl 1:6 KJV]
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

By mentioning Hebrews, I suspect that you are referring to Hebrews 6. To understand the verses in question, read verse 9.
It clearly demonstrates that for those saved, the preceding verses do not apply.

There are very clear warnings in the Hebrew letter in 6 and 10 directed to them but is also relevant to us today. You can lose your salvation.

 

[rogerg]

I understand what you're saying 100%. I used to think the exact same way. I just couldn't wrap my mind around that point, if I willingly choose to put my faith in Christ and am saved, does He then remove my free will? Could I not choose to stop following Him, as crazy and impossible as I feel that would be, am I no longer allowed? I felt just like you about it, it didn't make sense to lo longer have that option open to me, even though I could never imagine making that decision.

The thing I've realized it it is not our choice, it can't be, if it had anything to do with our choice that would make our choice a work would it not? If it is ANYTHING "we do", then that becomes a requirement and something you have to do to be saved, and yet we are told there is nothing we can "do" to save ourselves. Right? I want to be very careful here and not try to seem, as though I'm saying that our decisions have nothing to do with it, as if the two are disconnected, because they can't be. Love is not love with no choice, and we are very clearly told in scripture that we have to choose. We are also told that repentance is is a gift we are given by God, we can take no credit for our decision to repent, or I should say honestly say that "I" can take no credit for it in my life.

I come from a place where I went to the front of the church when called, I made that decision to "give my life to Jesus" in front of everyone. I even went later with them and was baptized as well to seal it, yet was not saved and did not know Him. However once I hit the hardest trial of my life, so far, and was brought to my knees in complete defeat, at a time after I was told and thought I was a Christian and saved, I hit my knees in unbelief thinking there was no power in that "Christian stuff" and that it didn't help me at all in my last 2 years of suffering. I just hit the end of any kind of belief in my own power and my ability to handle my problems. I saw my efforts for the futile attempt they truly were and couldn't do it anymore. I didn't even realize what was happening in that moment, but I was being granted repentance. I woke up the next day all new. He open my eye's to what happen throughout that day brought my to truth, and has been leading me these 10 years since. I could testify all day long but I'm trying to keep it as short as possible. I'm just making the point that when I thought it was my decision I was not saved, yet when I had no clue what was happening I was saved. I know it does not happen this way for everyone and some people may have really been saved when they repeated the sinners prayer, I'm just sharing that I do not believe it is "our decision" at all that saves us, even though it may very well play a part in our reconciliation, it does not depend or require it in any way. It sounds better when I just say that we get no glory for it. God gets ALL glory for our salvation right?

I know we Christians like to clash on it's either "this" or "that", but I believe that God working His sovereignty with/within/over our "free" will is one of the greatest mysteries of creation. I do not believe that we can lose our salvation anymore, just like I don't believe it's our choice that saves us. Jesus loses NONE the Father gives Him, if they left us they were never of us, He never knew them. It's a deep question and I understand your thinking, but it's so much bigger than just "us" it's all about HIM.

Generally and respectfully, I agree with you, but I would also suggest you consider these verses too if you haven't already done so. We receive a change of mind and heart as a result of becoming saved - but that change is not of ourselves it is of God. I could be wrong, but in reading your reply above, it seems that you left open the possibility of man's contributing to his salvation, although I could have misinterpreted it and if I did - sorry.

[Heb 10:16 KJV] 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[mailmandan]

There are very clear warnings in the Hebrew letter in 6 and 10 directed to them but is also relevant to us today. You can lose your salvation.

Only based on your eisegesis. Show us the words "lose salvation" in scripture.

 

[rogerg]

There are very clear warnings in the Hebrew letter in 6 and 10 directed to them but is also relevant to us today. You can lose your salvation.

Not possible. We are saved solely by what Christ achieved - it was never of ourselves. To say otherwise, is to invalidate His offering because it is eternal life that He gives. If it could be lost, then it was never eternal. Did you see the verses I posted?

 

[DJT_47]

I understand what you're saying 100%. I used to think the exact same way. I just couldn't wrap my mind around that point, if I willingly choose to put my faith in Christ and am saved, does He then remove my free will? Could I not choose to stop following Him, as crazy and impossible as I feel that would be, am I no longer allowed? I felt just like you about it, it didn't make sense to lo longer have that option open to me, even though I could never imagine making that decision.

The thing I've realized it it is not our choice, it can't be, if it had anything to do with our choice that would make our choice a work would it not? If it is ANYTHING "we do", then that becomes a requirement and something you have to do to be saved, and yet we are told there is nothing we can "do" to save ourselves. Right? I want to be very careful here and not try to seem, as though I'm saying that our decisions have nothing to do with it, as if the two are disconnected, because they can't be. Love is not love with no choice, and we are very clearly told in scripture that we have to choose. We are also told that repentance is is a gift we are given by God, we can take no credit for our decision to repent, or I should say honestly say that "I" can take no credit for it in my life.

I come from a place where I went to the front of the church when called, I made that decision to "give my life to Jesus" in front of everyone. I even went later with them and was baptized as well to seal it, yet was not saved and did not know Him. However once I hit the hardest trial of my life, so far, and was brought to my knees in complete defeat, at a time after I was told and thought I was a Christian and saved, I hit my knees in unbelief thinking there was no power in that "Christian stuff" and that it didn't help me at all in my last 2 years of suffering. I just hit the end of any kind of belief in my own power and my ability to handle my problems. I saw my efforts for the futile attempt they truly were and couldn't do it anymore. I didn't even realize what was happening in that moment, but I was being granted repentance. I woke up the next day all new. He open my eye's to what happen throughout that day brought my to truth, and has been leading me these 10 years since. I could testify all day long but I'm trying to keep it as short as possible. I'm just making the point that when I thought it was my decision I was not saved, yet when I had no clue what was happening I was saved. I know it does not happen this way for everyone and some people may have really been saved when they repeated the sinners prayer, I'm just sharing that I do not believe it is "our decision" at all that saves us, even though it may very well play a part in our reconciliation, it does not depend or require it in any way. It sounds better when I just say that we get no glory for it. God gets ALL glory for our salvation right?

I know we Christians like to clash on it's either "this" or "that", but I believe that God working His sovereignty with/within/over our "free" will is one of the greatest mysteries of creation. I do not believe that we can lose our salvation anymore, just like I don't believe it's our choice that saves us. Jesus loses NONE the Father gives Him, if they left us they were never of us, He never knew them. It's a deep question and I understand your thinking, but it's so much bigger than just "us" it's all about HIM.

Read my other recent posts regarding the Hebrews letter. Clear warnings to them about renouncing Christ and reverting back to their old beliefs. It was written to them but also similarly can apply to us if we were to renounce Christ. What if one who was saved chose to become a Muslim? Would they still be saved? You answer that one.

 

[brightfame52]

Your words and thoughts

If thats what you think, fine with me.

 

[brightfame52]

No, don't think so. True repentance comes to someone from God as a gift. That repentance is manifested in repenting from one's dead works unto the trusting of Christ as Saviour. That kind of repentance can only be given to someone by God it is not of oneself.

[Rom 2:4 KJV]
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Correct, Jesus the Saviour of His People gives Repentance and Remission of sins, thats what A Saviour does Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

So one cant and doesnt repent until they are saved by the Saviour

 

[JimmyTheLock]

The WORD of GOD IS Incorruptible

This is true... however, man can be corrupted even after having been born again.

There's many warnings in God's Word about this showing Christians can fall away from the Lord and be not saved after having been saved.


Here's one that most definitely DOES Speak Against the Eternal Security of the believer

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.

Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done

The gifts and callings of God are without repentance which means God cannot violate our free will and save us anyway IF we choose to go back to our sin which is living in darkness. In God there is NO darkness. (1 John 1:5)

This is a major biblical truth the OSAS crowd always explains away or denies is simply this... God is NOT mocked, what we sow is what we reap - if we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption. (Gal 6:7,8)

In Gal 6:8, the word corruption is...

G5356
fthora from G5351; decay, i.e. ruin -- corruption, destroy, perish.
G5351
strengthened from phthio (to pine or waste); properly, to shrivel or wither, i.e. to spoil or to ruin, by moral influences, to deprave): -- corrupt (self), defile, destroy.

If one claims we DO reap corruption when we sin, then they are admitting they do not believe OSAS / Eternal security doctrine (and sadly many of their friends will forsake them!).... and if one claims we DO NOT reap what we sow, then according to Gal 6:7, that would be mocking God!

Adam and Eve were given eternal life by the Lord when He created them... but when they sinned against God they became corrupt and died spiritually and became separated from God. So Gal 6:7,8 is quite the quandary, quite the state of uncertainty and perplexity for the adherents of OSAS doctrine.

 

[Jimbone]

Generally and respectfully, I agree with you, but I would also suggest you consider these verses too if you haven't already done so. We receive a change of mind and heart as a result of becoming saved - but that change is not of ourselves it is of God. I could be wrong, but in reading your reply above, it seems that you left open the possibility of man's contributing to his salvation, although I could have misinterpreted it and if I did - sorry.

[Heb 10:16 KJV] 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I know what you mean and why you'd think that. To make it very clear, I do NOT believe we contribute to salvation at all. God does it all without a doubt and none of us can boast. We agree on that fully. What I was talking about is in our own experience, from our perspective it can seem like it played a part, that was why I put in the part about wanting to be careful.

An example of what I mean, say the Lord is working on someone drawing them in and they go to a church that has an alter call. They go up there and "give their life to God", they repeat the prayer with all sincerity and are saved. They are truly saved and this was where God saves them. We will respond to His call, but it doesn't look the same for all of us. In this case the person may feel like they did make that choice and that's how they were saved. They did make the choice, but that's not what saved them. He did. So I'm with you 100%, I do not believe we can have anything to do with being saved and God is sovereign, in the true sense of the word. I do not agree that we are absent completely from the process either though. So from our perspective there will be actions taken, it's just they're not want save us. He is.

 

[Nehemiah6]

And yet, Christ had faith, he lived by faith, he is the only one who was righteous in his faith.

Then give us actual verses that clearly state this. Christ lived by obedience to the Father. God (Christ) is NOT a man, but He is the God-Man.

 

[rogerg]

I know what you mean and why you'd think that. To make it very clear, I do NOT believe we contribute to salvation at all. God does it all without a doubt and none of us can boast. We agree on that fully. What I was talking about is in our own experience, from our perspective it can seem like it played a part, that was why I put in the part about wanting to be careful.

An example of what I mean, say the Lord is working on someone drawing them in and they go to a church that has an alter call. They go up there and "give their life to God", they repeat the prayer with all sincerity and are saved. They are truly saved and this was where God saves them. We will respond to His call, but it doesn't look the same for all of us. In this case the person may feel like they did make that choice and that's how they were saved. They did make the choice, but that's not what saved them. He did. So I'm with you 100%, I do not believe we can have anything to do with being saved and God is sovereign, in the true sense of the word. I do not agree that we are absent completely from the process either though. So from our perspective there will be actions taken, it's just they're not want save us. He is.

I get what you're saying and thanks for the explanation. I don't want to beat this to death or split hairs with you unnecessarily,
but just to be clear, I would just suggest that if someone believes they were saved because of going to an alter call for example, then their trust remains in themselves and in what they've done making it their work. For me, the predicate for having become saved, is when we come to the unequivocal realization that Christ alone is the Saviour, and that it is He who has He saved us fully and completely - that we are only its recipients and beneficiaries and nothing more. With/by/through that realization, we can know that we have entered into His rest because from it, we cease from our works and labors for salvation - but not to mean that a Christian shouldn't perform Christian good works after salvation.
I believe all of salvation's attributes, to include our belief, comes as salvation's byproducts; that is, that salvation must come first and it precedes the receiving of all other Christian attributes (for lack of a better word) - that salvation must be given by God with everything else following from it.

 

[John146]

Then give us actual verses that clearly state this. Christ lived by obedience to the Father. God (Christ) is NOT a man, but He is the God-Man.

“without faith it is impossible to please God”

Did Christ please his Father in all he accomplished? Was Christ obedient to his Father's will? That's faith.

There are many...

John 8:38 “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me”

John 5:30 “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me”

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

I do NOT believe we contribute to salvation at all

Ever see all the New Testament verses calling us to obedience?

If one refuses to be obedient and decides to go back to living in sin... you think they are still saved and going to Heaven?

 

[John146]

Ever see all the New Testament verses calling us to obedience?

If one refuses to be obedient and decides to go back to living in sin... you think they are still saved and going to Heaven?

Do you still sin? Daily?

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Do you still sin? Daily?

No. I do not willingly or knowingly do sinful things.

It should be a rare occassion for a mature believer to sin and IF they do, it is not something they knew was sinful before doing it and then they decided to do it anyway.

Are you one of those that sin every day in thought word and deed an cannot help but sin and cannot cease from sin?

 

[Cameron143]

No. I do not willingly or knowingly do sinful things.

It should be a rare occassion for a mature believer to sin and IF they do, it is not something they knew was sinful before doing it and then they decided to do it anyway.

Are you one of those that sin every day in thought word and deed an cannot help but sin and cannot cease from sin?

There was never a time when you said a careless word or didn't consider another before yourself? Everything you've done has demonstrated love?

 

[John146]

No. I do not willingly or knowingly do sinful things.

It should be a rare occassion for a mature believer to sin and IF they do, it is not something they knew was sinful before doing it and then they decided to do it anyway.

Are you one of those that sin every day in thought word and deed an cannot help but sin and cannot cease from sin?

Even the things you should do and don't....is sin.

 

[John146]

No. I do not willingly or knowingly do sinful things.

It should be a rare occassion for a mature believer to sin and IF they do, it is not something they knew was sinful before doing it and then they decided to do it anyway.

Are you one of those that sin every day in thought word and deed an cannot help but sin and cannot cease from sin?

As soon as I wake up, I battle sin. Ever read Romans 7?