Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[FollowingtheWay]

He won't because He is the one who wrote it, and wrote it in the Bible in that sequence. He doesn't have to, nor would He ever change it. If He did, we would all be in a lot of trouble because that would mean the Bible is untrustworthy - which is impossible.

Nothing untrustworthy about the Bible at all. What is untrustworthy is quite so often our preconceived interpretations about what is being said. We don’t see clearly though we are on our way to seeing more and more clearly. We each come to the Bible with biases. Calvinism is a bias, and so is Armenian .

 

[rogerg]

So you read Scrupture and think that?

Where did I say that?

Actually you again are being dishonest, as you are putting words in my mouth that I alrady said otherwise and explained what I believe.

You seem to have a problem with anything Paul did not write...

2 Peter 3:15-17, “15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. “

This is you being evasive. Instead of just coming out and saying what you believe you tap dance around and never
come to the point.

 

[rogerg]

One thing I have learned here is that if you quote anything Paul did not write that mentions obedience many people will accuse you of "justified by works" type doctrines. It is really crazy. Jude warned of this

Jude 1:4, “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness (#766) and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

Using His mercy for a license to sin

Okay, now who's twisting words? But if you believe you are saved by anything that you do or don't do, then you believe in works, period.
Just admit what you believe in - grace or work - it can only be one or the other - which one is it?

 

[rogerg]

Nothing untrustworthy about the Bible at all. What is untrustworthy is quite so often our preconceived interpretations about what is being said. We don’t see clearly though we are on our way to seeing more and more clearly. We each come to the Bible with biases. Calvinism is a bias, and so is Armenian .

Okay, so what part of that verse or sequence of events did I get wrong or misunderstand?
Please be specific,

 

[SpeakTruth101]

What then did the verse you posted mean? If you would include your reasoning, I wouldn't need to guess at it

If you were interesting in the verse you would not have use a passage to find false reason to accuse me...

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

It means

the steadfast continuance of the ones dedicated to YHWH guard (tereo τηρέω) His Commands AND have faith (a trust belief) in Yahshua and "Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

" Yes, says the Spirit, " Do you disagree with the Spirit of the Creator? It is Yahshua and the Spirit of the Creator saying this.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Okay, now who's twisting words? But if you believe you are saved by anything that you do or don't do, then you believe in works, period.
Just admit what you believe in - grace or work - it can only be one or the other - which one is it?

So saying Using His mercy for a license to sin is justified by works? WOWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well I suppose your issue is with Jude not me, he wrote it.

Jude 1:4, “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness (#766) and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

 

[FollowingtheWay]

Okay, now who's twisting words? But if you believe you are saved by anything that you do or don't do, then you believe in works, period.
Just admit what you believe in - grace or work - it can only be one or the other - which one is it?

not according to James. We have faith and works which come into agreement with each other and compliment each other.

“What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬-‭20‬, ‭25‬-‭26‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[SpeakTruth101]

This is you being evasive. Instead of just coming out and saying what you believe you tap dance around and never
come to the point.

I said exactly what I mean

Paul and all of the writers of the Bible say the same thing. They do because it was God who moved them to
write what He wanted them to. So, I have no problem with any of the other writers, nor do I think Paul contradicted them or vice versa.

Well you were only quoting him and saying faith is not needed to be saved, so I thought you should read what Peter said, I mean I still think you should


2 Peter 3:15-17, “15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. “

 

[rogerg]

If you were interesting in the verse you would not have use a passage to find false reason to accuse me...

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

It means

the steadfast continuance of the ones dedicated to YHWH guard (tereo τηρέω) His Commands AND have faith (a trust belief) in Yahshua and "Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

" Yes, says the Spirit, " Do you disagree with the Spirit of the Creator? It is Yahshua and the Spirit of the Creator saying this.

Their labors and works are/were in the sharing of the gospel. What follows them are those (the elect) who have heard the
gospel by them and have followed, but, it was all by God.

[1Co 3:6-10 KJV]
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Their labors and works are/were in the sharing of the gospel. What follows them are those (the elect) who have heard the
gospel by them and have followed, but, it was all by God.

[1Co 3:6-10 KJV]
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Matthew 7:24-27,24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, 25 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 “And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

John/Yahanan 14:26, "But the Comforter – the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you."

John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (teachings) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

Matthew 21:42-46, "יהושע said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner-stone. This was from יהוה, and it is marvellous in our eyes’? (Ps 118:22-23) “Because of this I say to you: the reign of Elohim shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. “And he who falls on this stone shall be broken, but on whomever it falls, he shall be pulverized.” And the chief priests and Pharisees, having heard His parables, knew that He was speaking of them. And seeking to lay hands on Him, they feared the crowds, seeing they held Him to be a prophet.”

 

[rogerg]

not according to James. We have faith and works which come into agreement with each other and compliment each other.

“What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬-‭20‬, ‭25‬-‭26‬ ‭NIV‬‬

No, the works James speaks of are Christ's works. His works brought salvation not ours. James, in effect, is saying that if we
believe that our faith is of our doing, then it better be accompanied by our works must bre equal of Christ's works, because both are required - which is impossible. However, from Christ's works and His righteousness imputed to us as a gift, we will share the gospel which sharing then becomes our work - but it is from- or is a result of -salvation, it will not bring us salvation.

 

[FollowingtheWay]

Okay, so what part of that verse or sequence of events did I get wrong or misunderstand?
Please be specific,

I can’t tell you because I confess I can’t see perfectly clear either. That can only be revealed by Holy Spirit as you surrender what your bias is. If you don’t know your bias ask Holy Spirit to reveal it. Once you admit bias and observe it ask Holy Spirit to reveal truth of the scripture, surrender your natural bend and allow God to reveal the truth and intention of the debated verse.

 

[rogerg]

Matthew 7:24-27,24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, 25 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 “And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

John/Yahanan 14:26, "But the Comforter – the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you."

John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (teachings) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

Matthew 21:42-46, "יהושע said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner-stone. This was from יהוה, and it is marvellous in our eyes’? (Ps 118:22-23) “Because of this I say to you: the reign of Elohim shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. “And he who falls on this stone shall be broken, but on whomever it falls, he shall be pulverized.” And the chief priests and Pharisees, having heard His parables, knew that He was speaking of them. And seeking to lay hands on Him, they feared the crowds, seeing they held Him to be a prophet.”

this is exactly what PennEd was trying to tell you - that those actions come from salvation. The hearing is spiritual hearing given
when born again. How many times do I have to repeat the same basic thing to you? It is simple, really - that Christ alone is the Saviour
and all that accompanies it - therefore everything regarding salvation is given by God as a gift - man contributes nothing.

 

[rogerg]

I can’t tell you because I confess I can’t see perfectly clear either. That can only be revealed by Holy Spirit as you surrender what your bias is. If you don’t know your bias ask Holy Spirit to reveal it. Once you admit bias and observe it ask Holy Spirit to reveal truth of the scripture, surrender your natural bend and allow God to reveal the truth and intention of the debated verse.

Our surrendering has nothing to do with it - it is a gift from an exceedingly gracious and merciful God given to us. Not to be
rude, but you seem to have a problem accepting that God could be so gracious so as to give it freely.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

this is exactly what PennEd was trying to tell you - that those actions come from salvation. The hearing is spiritual hearing given
when born again. How many times do I have to repeat the same basic thing to you? It is simple, really - that Christ alone is the Saviour
and all that accompanies it - therefore everything regarding salvation is given by God as a gift - man contributes nothing.

You are arguing against an all Scripture post, not even any of my own words

If you have a problem with that post your issue is with the Scripture

wait those were ALL Jesus words!

 

[FollowingtheWay]

Our surrendering has nothing to do with it - it is a gift from an exceedingly gracious and merciful God given to us. Not to be
rude, but you seem to have a problem accepting that God could be so gracious so as to give it freely.

Dude, surrender of the self life has a bunch to do with our walk with God. We make ourselves idols and we have to remove ourselves off the throne and place Jesus on that throne consistently . This is what has to continually happen as we mature spiritually through the faith. I’m not denying Gods gracious gifts at all. I thank him new every morning but I’m also not a fool when he asks us to do our part we aught to take that seriously which is a daily surrender to His will , His ways.

 

[rogerg]

You are arguing against an all Scripture post, not even any of my own words

If you have a problem with that post your issue is with the Scripture

No, I'm arguing against your interpretation of it which is clearly wrong. Here I'll boil it down to its
essential point - do you believe that Christ is the Saviour. Read this verse closely. So, do you or do you not, believe that He is the Saviour?
Yes, or no, please.

[2Pe 3:18 KJV] 18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[rogerg]

Dude, surrender of the self life has a bunch to do with our walk with God. We make ourselves idols and we have to remove ourselves off the throne and place Jesus on that throne consistently . This is what has to continually happen as we mature spiritually through the faith. I’m not denying Gods gracious gifts at all. I thank him new every morning but I’m also not a fool when he asks us to do our part we aught to take that seriously which is a daily surrender to His will , His ways.

The question was of salvation, not that we shouldn't conduct ourselves AS Christian. Should we truly do those things, then it is as a byproduct OF salvation, not to attain salvation. This is a critical distinction.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

No, I'm arguing against your interpretation of it which is clearly wrong. Here I'll boil it down to its
essential point - do you believe that Christ is the Saviour. Read this verse closely. So, do you or do you not, believe that He is the Saviour?
Yes, or no, please.

[2Pe 3:18 KJV] 18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

pned You are arguing aginst a strawman you made up in your head because I gave no opinion, only Jesus words:

Matthew 7:24-27,24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, 25 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 “And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

John/Yahanan 14:26, "But the Comforter – the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you."

John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (teachings) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

Matthew 21:42-46, "יהושע said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner-stone. This was from יהוה, and it is marvellous in our eyes’? (Ps 118:22-23) “Because of this I say to you: the reign of Elohim shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. “And he who falls on this stone shall be broken, but on whomever it falls, he shall be pulverized.” And the chief priests and Pharisees, having heard His parables, knew that He was speaking of them. And seeking to lay hands on Him, they feared the crowds, seeing they held Him to be a prophet.”

 

[rogerg]

pned You are arguing aginst a strawman you made up in your head because I gave no opinion, only Jesus words:

What was your point with those verses?