Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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rogerg

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ZNP said:
Again, semantics. You have twenty people in the congregation, ten years later there are only ten left, so you assume the ten who are no longer there were unsaved because they didn't persevere.

That is a cruel way to look at it. Perhaps they aren't there anymore because in your midst is someone quite evil, they discovered it and left?
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Have you considered these verses before? They indisputably tell us that it is God alone who made Himself guarantor of faith and salvation of those whom He had preordained unto salvation. Therefore, those who fall away, do so because were not of those who are kept by the power of God - not everyone is.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV] 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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rogerg said:
Have you considered these verses before? They indisputably tell us that it is God alone who made Himself guarantor of faith and salvation of those whom He had preordained unto salvation. Therefore, those who fall away, do so because were not of those who are kept by the power of God - not everyone is.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV] 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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Oh, so this is not to do with us. We have been told what to do, we know what the works of the flesh are, we know what sin is and what we need to repent of, and we are told not to judge. Only God gets to decide who is and who is not saved. Therefore if we see the works of the flesh we should be warned, doesn't matter if the guy says he was saved and OSAS.
 
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rogerg

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ZNP said:
Oh, so this is not to do with us. We have been told what to do, we know what the works of the flesh are, we know what sin is and what we need to repent of, and we are told not to judge. Only God gets to decide who is and who is not saved. Therefore if we see the works of the flesh we should be warned, doesn't matter if the guy says he was saved and OSAS.
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Yes, only God and with nothing from man. So, I assume then that you don't believe those verses are correct? He is the Saviour because He alone is the one who saves. Or what do you understand those verses to mean? Those who are saved are given a new heart and mind by God so they will not desire to sin but that is from salvation, not to salvation.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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rogerg said:
Yes, only God and with nothing from man. So, I assume then that you don't believe those verses are correct? He is the Saviour because He alone is the one who saves. Or what do you understand those verses to mean?
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why would you assume that?
 
Magenta

Magenta

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rogerg said:
Those who are saved are given a new heart and mind by God so they will not desire to sin but that is from salvation, not to salvation.
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The verse you quoted specifically said: kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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rogerg said:
By your reply? What do you think those verses mean?
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I think as usual in these debates you have cut a piece of the Bible out while ignoring part of the Bible.

1Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

We are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. True. However, we are in manifold temptations and these are necessary because for some that faith being tried by fire will be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. But it would be pointless to even say this if there were not the fact that for others it won't be. Only after having passed through that trial successfully will you receive the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

I cannot explain this, I can put forth some valid theories which may explain in part. For example, we know there are wolves in sheep clothing who pretend to be saved. We may not be able to discern who is who, which is why these trials are necessary to separate out the phonies from the real believers.
 
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rogerg

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ZNP said:
We are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. True. However, we are in manifold temptations and these are necessary because for some that faith being tried by fire will be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. But it would be pointless to even say this if there were not the fact that for others it won't be. Only after having passed through that trial successfully will you receive the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

I cannot explain this, I can put forth some valid theories which may explain in part. For example, we know there are wolves in sheep clothing who pretend to be saved. We may not be able to discern who is who, which is why these trials are necessary to separate out the phonies from the real believers.
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I would say that for those for whom it had been reserved in heaven, that they will persevere unto the end, but only because
of God's will, not of theirs nor of their actions. Were it dependent upon them, then no guarantee could have/would have been made by God in saying, "reserved for you in heaven" nor "unto salvation", because if it was not based solely upon God, then He could neither reserve nor guarantee it. But I agree that the true believers will/must go through trials of their faith for it to be refined.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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rogerg said:
I would say that for those for whom it had been reserved in heaven, that they will persevere unto the end, but that only because
of God's will, not of theirs nor of their actions. Were it dependent upon them, then no guarantee could have/would have been made by God in saying, "reserved for you in heaven" nor "unto salvation", because if it was not based solely upon God, then He could neither reserve nor guarantee it.
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Of course it is dependent on our actions, Faith without works is dead. Jesus already went through the trials, Peter isn't referring to Jesus being tried, the trial of your faith refers to our trial.

Peter says that salvation is the end of our faith. Justification would be the beginning. When we get the faith in the Lord's blood justifying us it is like being handed a rope. We need to get to the other end of that rope without letting go, if we do that is salvation. Climbing that rope is our trial.
 
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brightfame52

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cv5 said:
Whatever the case, God does not violate the free will of His created angels or men. This business of misrepresenting God as a tyrannical control freak is utterly disproven Biblically every single time that this question is raised by Satan. God has an answer and is justified at every point.
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Believers, as Elect Angels are Preserved by the Grace and Power of God, they are preserved forever Ps 37:28

For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

And they were Saints by the Blood of Christ even when they were rebellious unbelievers. See the Death of Christ alone Sanctified them forever Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
 
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brightfame52

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cv5 said:
Just to let you know, the example of God "guarding" the way to the tree of life (preventing Adam and Eve from eating of it in their now fallen state) is proof positive of OSAS.

Remember, both sincerely confessed their sins, and God "covered them with The Blood" aka saved/redeemed them firstly.
THEN came the "guarding" to prevent them from eternal death aka eating from the second tree.
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Again, everyone Christ died for, are preserved forever. Before the elect are even called in time, they have been sanctified by God the Father and Preserved in Christ Jude 1:1

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
 
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brightfame52

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cv5 said:
Just to let you know, the example of God "guarding" the way to the tree of life (preventing Adam and Eve from eating of it in their now fallen state) is proof positive of OSAS.

Remember, both sincerely confessed their sins, and God "covered them with The Blood" aka saved/redeemed them firstly.
THEN came the "guarding" to prevent them from eternal death aka eating from the second tree.
Click to expand...
Again, everyone Christ died for, are preserved forever. Before the elect are even called in time, they have been sanctified by God the Father and Preserved in Christ Jude 1:1

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
 
R

rogerg

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ZNP said:
Of course it is dependent on our actions, Faith without works is dead. Jesus already went through the trials, Peter isn't referring to Jesus being tried, the trial of your faith refers to our trial.
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"faith without works is dead" is referring to Christ's works not ours. Christ's faith had within it, faith in the Father, works, and righteousness. From/by His faith, those saved are imputed His faith as a fruit of the Spirit/gift. Otherwise, it would then be our works, and our working for salvation brings God's wrath upon us not His grace. Throughout our lifetimes faith is refined as silver and gold is refined but it originated from and by Him, not us and will not fail.

ZNP said:
Peter says that salvation is the end of our faith. Justification would be the beginning. When we get the faith in the Lord's blood justifying us it is like being handed a rope. We need to get to the other end of that rope without letting go, if we do that is salvation. Climbing that rope is our trial.
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Salvation is a gift in its fullness, one that man cannot contribute to. That is why Christ alone wears the mantle of Saviour.
The end of faith is the salvation of the last day, not in becoming saved. Becoming saved occurs during our lifetimes. Salvation occurs in two parts: becoming saved when God places us under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, and takes us from the law of sin and death, because of which, salvation will be REVEALED to us at the last time (end of time). Notice that it does not say "given" at the last time, it says "revealed" at the last time. Peter is speaking of the final conversion, actualization, manifestation, realization of salvation in its final form, but not of becoming saved.

Read the verse again:

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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What does this verse mean?

Philippians 1:6...Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will continue it until the day of Jesus Christ.
 
R

rogerg

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Aussie52 said:
The 'keeping' is conditioned on faith. If a christian stops believing and turns from Christ, there is no more 'keeping', they are lost (Heb 6).
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No, don't think so - a true Christian cannot stop having faith in Christ as Saviour. The verse says KEPT by the power of God, not kept though oneself. I think this is confirmed by the prior verse(v4), in which we are informed that their inheritance is reserved for them in heaven. Verse 5 links to verse 4 through the "who". Since the inheritance is reserved in heaven by God, it cannot be lost, and therefore, all is through God.
The faith of the saved is given through the fruit of the Spirit upon becoming born again, from becoming saved. True faith is not of/by man but of God. The below verses validate perfectly that it is by God.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 
R

rogerg

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Aussie52 said:
The 'keeping' is conditioned on faith. If a christian stops believing and turns from Christ, there is no more 'keeping', they are lost (Heb 6).
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By the way, Heb 6 has to be understood in light of verse 9, where we are informed of the "better things of you" - " things that accompany salvation", "though we speak thus", in effect, for the saved, negating those things mentioned in the prior verses.


[Heb 6:9 KJV] 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
 
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