Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#6,281
Jul 13, 2021
3,922
656
113
#6,281
ZNP said:
Again, semantics. You have twenty people in the congregation, ten years later there are only ten left, so you assume the ten who are no longer there were unsaved because they didn't persevere.

That is a cruel way to look at it. Perhaps they aren't there anymore because in your midst is someone quite evil, they discovered it and left?
Click to expand...
Have you considered these verses before? They indisputably tell us that it is God alone who made Himself guarantor of faith and salvation of those whom He had preordained unto salvation. Therefore, those who fall away, do so because were not of those who are kept by the power of God - not everyone is.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV] 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
ZNP

ZNP

Well-known member
#6,282
Sep 14, 2020
37,507
6,931
113
#6,282
rogerg said:
Have you considered these verses before? They indisputably tell us that it is God alone who made Himself guarantor of faith and salvation of those whom He had preordained unto salvation. Therefore, those who fall away, do so because were not of those who are kept by the power of God - not everyone is.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV] 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Click to expand...
Oh, so this is not to do with us. We have been told what to do, we know what the works of the flesh are, we know what sin is and what we need to repent of, and we are told not to judge. Only God gets to decide who is and who is not saved. Therefore if we see the works of the flesh we should be warned, doesn't matter if the guy says he was saved and OSAS.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#6,283
Jul 13, 2021
3,922
656
113
#6,283
ZNP said:
Oh, so this is not to do with us. We have been told what to do, we know what the works of the flesh are, we know what sin is and what we need to repent of, and we are told not to judge. Only God gets to decide who is and who is not saved. Therefore if we see the works of the flesh we should be warned, doesn't matter if the guy says he was saved and OSAS.
Click to expand...
Yes, only God and with nothing from man. So, I assume then that you don't believe those verses are correct? He is the Saviour because He alone is the one who saves. Or what do you understand those verses to mean? Those who are saved are given a new heart and mind by God so they will not desire to sin but that is from salvation, not to salvation.
 
ZNP

ZNP

Well-known member
#6,284
Sep 14, 2020
37,507
6,931
113
#6,284
rogerg said:
Yes, only God and with nothing from man. So, I assume then that you don't believe those verses are correct? He is the Saviour because He alone is the one who saves. Or what do you understand those verses to mean?
Click to expand...
why would you assume that?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#6,286
Jul 3, 2015
61,168
30,313
113
#6,286
rogerg said:
Those who are saved are given a new heart and mind by God so they will not desire to sin but that is from salvation, not to salvation.
Click to expand...
The verse you quoted specifically said: kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.
 
ZNP

ZNP

Well-known member
#6,288
Sep 14, 2020
37,507
6,931
113
#6,288
rogerg said:
By your reply? What do you think those verses mean?
Click to expand...
I think as usual in these debates you have cut a piece of the Bible out while ignoring part of the Bible.

1Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

We are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. True. However, we are in manifold temptations and these are necessary because for some that faith being tried by fire will be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. But it would be pointless to even say this if there were not the fact that for others it won't be. Only after having passed through that trial successfully will you receive the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

I cannot explain this, I can put forth some valid theories which may explain in part. For example, we know there are wolves in sheep clothing who pretend to be saved. We may not be able to discern who is who, which is why these trials are necessary to separate out the phonies from the real believers.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#6,289
Jul 13, 2021
3,922
656
113
#6,289
ZNP said:
We are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. True. However, we are in manifold temptations and these are necessary because for some that faith being tried by fire will be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. But it would be pointless to even say this if there were not the fact that for others it won't be. Only after having passed through that trial successfully will you receive the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

I cannot explain this, I can put forth some valid theories which may explain in part. For example, we know there are wolves in sheep clothing who pretend to be saved. We may not be able to discern who is who, which is why these trials are necessary to separate out the phonies from the real believers.
Click to expand...
I would say that for those for whom it had been reserved in heaven, that they will persevere unto the end, but only because
of God's will, not of theirs nor of their actions. Were it dependent upon them, then no guarantee could have/would have been made by God in saying, "reserved for you in heaven" nor "unto salvation", because if it was not based solely upon God, then He could neither reserve nor guarantee it. But I agree that the true believers will/must go through trials of their faith for it to be refined.
 
ZNP

ZNP

Well-known member
#6,290
Sep 14, 2020
37,507
6,931
113
#6,290
rogerg said:
I would say that for those for whom it had been reserved in heaven, that they will persevere unto the end, but that only because
of God's will, not of theirs nor of their actions. Were it dependent upon them, then no guarantee could have/would have been made by God in saying, "reserved for you in heaven" nor "unto salvation", because if it was not based solely upon God, then He could neither reserve nor guarantee it.
Click to expand...
Of course it is dependent on our actions, Faith without works is dead. Jesus already went through the trials, Peter isn't referring to Jesus being tried, the trial of your faith refers to our trial.

Peter says that salvation is the end of our faith. Justification would be the beginning. When we get the faith in the Lord's blood justifying us it is like being handed a rope. We need to get to the other end of that rope without letting go, if we do that is salvation. Climbing that rope is our trial.
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#6,291
Nov 21, 2020
6,485
597
113
#6,291
cv5 said:
Whatever the case, God does not violate the free will of His created angels or men. This business of misrepresenting God as a tyrannical control freak is utterly disproven Biblically every single time that this question is raised by Satan. God has an answer and is justified at every point.
Click to expand...
Believers, as Elect Angels are Preserved by the Grace and Power of God, they are preserved forever Ps 37:28

For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

And they were Saints by the Blood of Christ even when they were rebellious unbelievers. See the Death of Christ alone Sanctified them forever Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#6,292
Nov 21, 2020
6,485
597
113
#6,292
cv5 said:
Just to let you know, the example of God "guarding" the way to the tree of life (preventing Adam and Eve from eating of it in their now fallen state) is proof positive of OSAS.

Remember, both sincerely confessed their sins, and God "covered them with The Blood" aka saved/redeemed them firstly.
THEN came the "guarding" to prevent them from eternal death aka eating from the second tree.
Click to expand...
Again, everyone Christ died for, are preserved forever. Before the elect are even called in time, they have been sanctified by God the Father and Preserved in Christ Jude 1:1

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#6,293
Nov 21, 2020
6,485
597
113
#6,293
cv5 said:
Just to let you know, the example of God "guarding" the way to the tree of life (preventing Adam and Eve from eating of it in their now fallen state) is proof positive of OSAS.

Remember, both sincerely confessed their sins, and God "covered them with The Blood" aka saved/redeemed them firstly.
THEN came the "guarding" to prevent them from eternal death aka eating from the second tree.
Click to expand...
Again, everyone Christ died for, are preserved forever. Before the elect are even called in time, they have been sanctified by God the Father and Preserved in Christ Jude 1:1

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#6,295
Jul 13, 2021
3,922
656
113
#6,295
ZNP said:
Of course it is dependent on our actions, Faith without works is dead. Jesus already went through the trials, Peter isn't referring to Jesus being tried, the trial of your faith refers to our trial.
Click to expand...
"faith without works is dead" is referring to Christ's works not ours. Christ's faith had within it, faith in the Father, works, and righteousness. From/by His faith, those saved are imputed His faith as a fruit of the Spirit/gift. Otherwise, it would then be our works, and our working for salvation brings God's wrath upon us not His grace. Throughout our lifetimes faith is refined as silver and gold is refined but it originated from and by Him, not us and will not fail.

ZNP said:
Peter says that salvation is the end of our faith. Justification would be the beginning. When we get the faith in the Lord's blood justifying us it is like being handed a rope. We need to get to the other end of that rope without letting go, if we do that is salvation. Climbing that rope is our trial.
Click to expand...
Salvation is a gift in its fullness, one that man cannot contribute to. That is why Christ alone wears the mantle of Saviour.
The end of faith is the salvation of the last day, not in becoming saved. Becoming saved occurs during our lifetimes. Salvation occurs in two parts: becoming saved when God places us under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, and takes us from the law of sin and death, because of which, salvation will be REVEALED to us at the last time (end of time). Notice that it does not say "given" at the last time, it says "revealed" at the last time. Peter is speaking of the final conversion, actualization, manifestation, realization of salvation in its final form, but not of becoming saved.

Read the verse again:

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#6,298
Mar 1, 2022
20,094
6,885
113
62
#6,298
What does this verse mean?

Philippians 1:6...Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will continue it until the day of Jesus Christ.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#6,299
Jul 13, 2021
3,922
656
113
#6,299
Aussie52 said:
The 'keeping' is conditioned on faith. If a christian stops believing and turns from Christ, there is no more 'keeping', they are lost (Heb 6).
Click to expand...
No, don't think so - a true Christian cannot stop having faith in Christ as Saviour. The verse says KEPT by the power of God, not kept though oneself. I think this is confirmed by the prior verse(v4), in which we are informed that their inheritance is reserved for them in heaven. Verse 5 links to verse 4 through the "who". Since the inheritance is reserved in heaven by God, it cannot be lost, and therefore, all is through God.
The faith of the saved is given through the fruit of the Spirit upon becoming born again, from becoming saved. True faith is not of/by man but of God. The below verses validate perfectly that it is by God.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#6,300
Jul 13, 2021
3,922
656
113
#6,300
Aussie52 said:
The 'keeping' is conditioned on faith. If a christian stops believing and turns from Christ, there is no more 'keeping', they are lost (Heb 6).
Click to expand...
By the way, Heb 6 has to be understood in light of verse 9, where we are informed of the "better things of you" - " things that accompany salvation", "though we speak thus", in effect, for the saved, negating those things mentioned in the prior verses.


[Heb 6:9 KJV] 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.