Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[rogerg]

@rogerg

again with the thumbs down..

Again I ask you if you have any humility.

you want me to see Gods love in you.. I would suggest you start to show it back, and stop being so proud

It's easier to thumbs-down than to get into a three-day dialogue with you over one point.
Feel free to do it to me - I won't mind.

 

[rogerg]

then there is no need for them to repent and believe in the gospel.

they are already saved..

again, They would not be born dead. they would be born alive..

Not to become saved - but... it does happen as a result or byproduct of salvation.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I think if you read the OT in full you will see God is not exclusively all loving.
If you read the entire Bible because the OT lays groundwork for the New it will greatly assist your perspective.

We will conclude our exchange here. May God's mercies and peace find you in happiness and joy. ☺️

is that so

its amazing, he waited 400 years until the sin of the amorite was completed

He waited until there was only 8 just souls before he flooded the earth

He called david a man after his heart knowing he would as much as rape a married woman and murder her husband.

He waited hundreds of years while israel was in sin before he finally destroyed her in 70 AD.

There is massive examples of Gods patience and mercy in the OT..

 

[ButterflyJones]

That's man's logic. The only repentance of value to God is in one's turning to Christ and believing/trusting in Him fully and completely as Saviour and in His completed perfect offering. Of himself, man can never produce that kind of repentance - God alone must give it, but it is only to the elect.

[2Ti 2:25 KJV]
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

John 8
The Truth Will Set You Free
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

 

[cv5]

Here is what God wills:

1 Tim 2:4 Who [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I absolutely, fully agree with these passages of doctrine laid down exactly as codified. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that God desires all men to be saved.

I also know beyond any shadow of a doubt that God's election and predetermined will as regards the salvation of His sheep stands unchallenged.

Both can be and in fact are equally true and should be preached as such.

It is astonishing that Christians think that they are forced to choose between one or the other.....

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That's man's logic. The only repentance of value to God is in one's turning to Christ and believing/trusting in Him fully and completely as Saviour and in His completed perfect offering. Of himself,

Hey we agree on something, amazing!!

man can never produce that kind of repentance -

Hey we agree on something else.. Amazing

God alone must give it, but it is only to the elect.

[2Ti 2:25 KJV]
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

then we drift far far apart..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It's easier to thumbs-down than to get into a three-day dialogue with you over one point.
Feel free to do it to me - I won't mind.

well if you were humble. You would not need to thumb down.. You would just explain why you can't see it my way in a loving matter and move on.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Not to become saved - but... it does happen as a result or byproduct of salvation.

how can I listen to you when you say they are saved before time began, yet then say they are not saved until after they are born..

can't you see the contradiction??

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

John 8
The Truth Will Set You Free
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

John 6

You do not see because you do not believe..

its not because they are dead. its because they are unbelievers.

 

[rogerg]

how can I listen to you when you say they are saved before time began, yet then say they are not saved until after they are born..

can't you see the contradiction??

Did I say saved? No. I said elected. And if you don't want to listen to me believe me, no problem.

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 2:4 teaches that it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.

2 Corinthians 7:10 teaches that it is a godly sorrow that leads to repentance unto salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

how can I listen to you when you say they are saved before time began, yet then say they are not saved until after they are born..

can't you see the contradiction??

Not saved chosen. Election took place in eternity past. Salvation is worked out in time and space.

 

[rogerg]

then we drift far far apart..

You realize of course that your disagreement is with a verse of the Bible, don't you?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Right. But I'm not desiring to discuss attributes of God but rather the essence of foreknowledge. When the Bible speaks about the foreknowledge of God, does it speak of what He foreknew or who He foreknew?

God is omnipresent

Does that answer your question?

Either he knows everything that will happen. even million of years in advance,

or he does not..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Did I say saved? No. I said elected. And if you don't want to listen to me believe me, no problem.

whats the difference?

If God elected them before the foundation of the world. Then chose them over a million other people. to make alive,

then something must occure that caused them to be saved.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Romans 2:4 teaches that it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.

2 Corinthians 7:10 teaches that it is a godly sorrow that leads to repentance unto salvation.

Amen

And what draws people to God. What are we told to do to draw people to God?

Wait till God makes them alive, Or be a light shining in darkness so they can see their way to the light. and be saved..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Not saved chosen. Election took place in eternity past. Salvation is worked out in time and space.

elect according to foreknowledge (omniscience)
far to many places in scripture says we come to God when we believe, and we do not come to God because of unbelief.

In jesus own words, he who believes is not condemned, he who does not is condemned already because they have not believed.

If calvinism is factually, these words are meaningless. In fact the whol second part of john 3 is nonsensical. Which I assume is why no one wants to go through and see what it really says

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You realize of course that your disagreement is with a verse of the Bible, don't you?

like yours is?

There you go again, It me against the bible you are perfect?

I am sorry man, I do not claim to be perfect and know everything. And I am not going to be self rightious and pump myself like your doing.

what happened to a few days ago when we had a peaceful discussion and you were more humble?

 

[Cameron143]

God is omnipresent

Does that answer your question?

Either he knows everything that will happen. even million of years in advance,

or he does not..

It doesn't answer my question. I know that God is omniscient.
I'm asking about the foreknowledge of God. According to the Bible, does the foreknowledge of God concern itself with WHAT God foreknew or WHO God foreknew?

 

[Cameron143]

elect according to foreknowledge (omniscience)
far to many places in scripture says we come to God when we believe, and we do not come to God because of unbelief.

In jesus own words, he who believes is not condemned, he who does not is condemned already because they have not believed.

If calvinism is factually, these words are meaningless. In fact the whol second part of john 3 is nonsensical. Which I assume is why no one wants to go through and see what it really says

The issue isn't belief or unbelief. The issue is who is the cause of the belief.