Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Sipsey]

It’s sad that those are your thoughts, not mine.



I am a Christian, but it seems your conclusion is I’m in error for labeling myself as such. Do you propose I no longer be a Christian? If yes, that’s the anti-Christ spirit coming from you.

Next, let’s get down to business. Sins are not inherited. Cain and Abel did not inherit Adam and Eve’s sin nor were guilty of eating from the TOTKOGAE. Meaning, when Cain and Abel were born, they didn’t have their parents’ sin upon them.

Now read this:

Ezekiel 18
20The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.

Now you put scripture down. Show me where someone is born lost.

Rom. 5: 14-21

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Beckie]

It’s sad that those are your thoughts, not mine.



I am a Christian, but it seems your conclusion is I’m in error for labeling myself as such. Do you propose I no longer be a Christian? If yes, that’s the anti-Christ spirit coming from you.

Next, let’s get down to business. Sins are not inherited. Cain and Abel did not inherit Adam and Eve’s sin nor were guilty of eating from the TOTKOGAE. Meaning, when Cain and Abel were born, they didn’t have their parents’ sin upon them.

Now read this:

Ezekiel 18
20The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.

Now you put scripture down. Show me where someone is born lost.

If this was not important you would be a joke.
Here is the scripture you asked for...Psa_58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

[ThewindBlows]

That’s the option you’ve assigned to me. The irrevocable gift of eternal life is forever once the gift is received… in the age to come.

As I said, the options you’ve assigned to me are extreme and exist no where in my train of thought.

Well your train of thought is foreign to the new testament so Christians wont be able to relate to what you are saying, you have separated eternal life from the moment Christ came into them, Your saying it hasn't happened yet and then you are telling Christians it cant happen to them either in this life, so that would be offensive to them as they know who they believe

There is a new covenant in Jesus blood, Jesus Said "You must be born again", A new creation in Christ, it also it says "Today is the Day of Salvation" don't harden your heart

So do know about the Gospel Message

 

[Runningman]

If this was not important you would be a joke.
Here is the scripture you asked for...Psa_58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psalm 58:3 doesn't say someone is born lost.

This isnt complicated. Babies cannot even speak when they are first born nor understand truth from falsehoods. I suggest you find a new interpretation of that, I already have. Joke's on you.

The kingdom of heaven belongs to children such as the ones Jesus referenced, not liars:
Matthew 19:13-15
13Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.
14Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

 

[Runningman]

Well your train of thought is foreign to the new testament so Christians wont be able to relate to what you are saying

This is called gaslighting.

You're applying something to me I didn't say. What I said doesn't exist in my train of thought because it's something you said:

In post #2,189 you said, "or you have to conclude that God would either take the HS away or he would have to throw the HS into hell, neither are true so the problem is in your thinking"

Those aren't my thoughts. You're the one who thought of those things and they aren't in the New Testament. It's extreme and Christian's don't follow it. You're the only person I've ever heard say that.

you have separated eternal life from the moment Christ came into them, Your saying it hasn't happened yet and then you are telling Christians it cant happen to them either in this life, so that would be offensive to them as they know who they believe

I haven't seperated anything. I showed you what the Bible says about eternal life in the age to come. You're once again assigning things to me I never did. You're very intellectually dishonest, sir!

There is a new covenant in Jesus blood, Jesus Said "You must be born again", A new creation in Christ, it also it says "Today is the Day of Salvation" don't harden your heart

Finally something honest from you.

So do know about the Gospel Message

Yes I do.

 

[ThewindBlows]

Those aren't my thoughts. You're the one who thought of those things and they aren't in the New Testament. It's extreme and Christian's don't follow it. You're the only person I've ever heard say that.

Its the only conclusion to your view you brought in that isn't in the new testament, is your only option if you reject the verse I showed you

I haven't seperated anything. I showed you what the Bible says about eternal life in the age to come. You're once again assigning things to me I never did. You're very intellectually dishonest, sir!

And I told you Jesus is eternal life and you have to receive him in this life before you die

1 tim 6:16, only God is immortal, You need to be joined to God spiritually before you die or it will be too late

Finally something honest from you.

Thanks for calling me sir

Yes I do.

Talk about it then

 

[Runningman]

Its the only conclusion to your view you brought in that isn't in the new testament, is your only option if you reject the verse I showed you

I think you're reading into too far into what I said because I didn't say the Holy Spirit leaves belivers. I said that those who love Christ and keep His commandments receive the Holy Spirit. Normal Christains love Christ and keep His commandments. John 14:15 says that.

Keeping Jesus' commandments = holy and righteous living. There is a reason why this grieves the Holy Spirit that someone is sealed in.

Ephesians 4
29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Talk about it then

The gospel of Christ that saves is stated concisely in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but look at what verses 1 and 2 say:

1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Did you catch that? If they hold firmly to the gospel they are saved. If they don't hold firmly to the gospel they have "believed" in the gospel in vain.

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

and would never even think they needed to be circumcized too.. They were decieved because they did not have true faith to begin with

Did Paul think they believed?

Galatians 3:26
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, you are also an heir through God.


Did Paul think Christ could become of no value to them at the same time?

Galatians 5:2-4
Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

 

[Beckie]

Psalm 58:3 doesn't say someone is born lost.

This isnt complicated. Babies cannot even speak when they are first born nor understand truth from falsehoods. I suggest you find a new interpretation of that, I already have. Joke's on you.

The kingdom of heaven belongs to children such as the ones Jesus referenced, not liars:
Matthew 19:13-15
13Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.
14Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

Yup those scriptures say what they say as does Psalm 58:3

 

[Runningman]

Yup those scriptures say what they say as does Psalm 58:3

The way I interpret Psalm 58:3 is that there may be people predisposed from birth on a path of wickedness, but they aren't literally speaking lies or plotting deceit immediately after being born. They aren't lost from the point of birth. You or @Magenta who seems to have removed herself from the conversation, occasionally reemerging to say false things about me, after making unsupported claims, have not shown that.

Children don't learn how to do that until later. This takes wisdom to understand since Psalms is usually poetic language for singing. Psalms 58 is for the choirmaster to the tune of “Do Not Destroy.” A Miktam of David.

Also, consider the more counsel from scripture:

John the baptist filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. Being filled the Holy Spirit, did he come out immediately spouting lies and deceit? If this happened to John the Baptist why can't it happen to anyone else?
Luke 1:15
15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He shall never take wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb.

Or how about these little ones who did not know good from bad? Were they telling lies too?
Deuteronomy 1:39
39And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it.

 

[ThewindBlows]

I said that those who love Christ and keep His commandments receive the Holy Spirit.

Sounds nice but then you slip in a doosey and say not in this life, and you have to earn it, So its like you think Salvation is an upgraded body but Jesus is our Salvation, the moment you are born again you are transformed from darkness to the kingdom of light, Seated in heavenly places, It doesn't matter when you take your last breath we exist in Christ

Normal Christians love Christ and keep His commandments. John 14:15 says that.
Keeping Jesus' commandments = holy and righteous living. There is a reason why this grieves the Holy Spirit that someone is sealed in.

We Love because he first loved us, Holy and righteous living and loving others flows from knowledge of that, without Jesus you cant do anything that's why Jesus said "you must be born again"

but look at what verses 1 and 2 say:

1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Did you catch that? If they hold firmly to the gospel they are saved. If they don't hold firmly to the gospel they have "believed" in the gospel in vain.

Yes I did catch that, did you notice the first line how Jesus died for our sins, not getting past the first line would be believing in vain as an example, you might be running your whole life trying to deal with your own sin, What does saved mean to you?

 

[Runningman]

Yes I did catch that, did you notice the first line how Jesus died for our sins, not getting past the first line would be believing in vain as an example, you might be running your whole life trying to deal with your own sin, What does saved mean to you?

God’s grace is accessed through faith provided one keeps the faith. Also, that doesn’t mean someone is free to go sin it up. One should be trying, even if they fail sometimes, but always trying to live a righteous life. God’s grace can be abused and those who make a practice of sin have distinct warnings for them. It’s all in Hebrews and 1 John.

 

[Runningman]

It’s all in Hebrews and 1 John.

…and Romans. Among other places.

 

[Mem]

Often finding myself not doing what I'd want to do and then also doing what I don't want to do, when Paul speaks of doing what he doesn't want to do and not doing what he wants in a context of saying that "it is not I but Christ who lives in me," I wonder if he is speaking in the sense of having found himself in the same predicament as Jonah who didn't want to call the Ninevites to repentance but wanted to condemn them to destruction, even to the point of sulking after they received his message whole heartedly.

 

[Runningman]

Often finding myself not doing what I'd want to do and then also doing what I don't want to do, when Paul speaks of doing what he doesn't want to do and not doing what he wants in a context of saying that "it is not I but Christ who lives in me," I wonder if he is speaking in the sense of having found himself in the same predicament as Jonah who didn't want to call the Ninevites to repentance but wanted to condemn them to destruction, even to the point of sulking after they received his message whole heartedly.

To me it sounds like he does things he doesn’t want to do, but he doesn’t want to want to do them. Just reading Paul’s writings, I think he recognizes he deserves to be destroyed, but is grateful for God’s grace and mercy. I think Paul is a little different than Jonah because he wants others to find grace and mercy, but Jonah seemed to sulk when his enemies actually wanted to repent.

Jonah seems to have had an out on that though. In the old covenant it doesn’t seem like loving your enemies was required, but rather the eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth method was still in effect.

 

[Cameron143]

While it is true that Jesus called Judas a devil, being a devil doesn't rule out belief. As the saying goes, "even the devils believe and tremble." So what I think Peter meant was that

To me it sounds like he does things he doesn’t want to do, but he doesn’t want to want to do them. Just reading Paul’s writings, I think he recognizes he deserves to be destroyed, but is grateful for God’s grace and mercy. I think Paul is a little different than Jonah because he wants others to find grace and mercy, but Jonah seemed to sulk when his enemies actually wanted to repent.

Jonah seems to have had an out on that though. In the old covenant it doesn’t seem like loving your enemies was required, but rather the eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth method was still in effect.

Leviticus 19:17-18

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

Often finding myself not doing what I'd want to do and then also doing what I don't want to do, when Paul speaks of doing what he doesn't want to do and not doing what he wants in a context of saying that "it is not I but Christ who lives in me," I wonder if he is speaking in the sense of having found himself in the same predicament as Jonah who didn't want to call the Ninevites to repentance but wanted to condemn them to destruction, even to the point of sulking after they received his message whole heartedly.

To me it sounds like he does things he doesn’t want to do, but he doesn’t want to want to do them. Just reading Paul’s writings, I think he recognizes he deserves to be destroyed, but is grateful for God’s grace and mercy. I think Paul is a little different than Jonah because he wants others to find grace and mercy, but Jonah seemed to sulk when his enemies actually wanted to repent.

Jonah seems to have had an out on that though. In the old covenant it doesn’t seem like loving your enemies was required, but rather the eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth method was still in effect.

,
Paul is speaking as a man who is a slave to sin because of the Law and cannot do right.

Romans 7:14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
Romans 7:18
I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Paul himself would fall into this category
Romans 8:2
For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

,
Paul is speaking as a man who is a slave to sin because of the Law and cannot do right.

Romans 7:14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
Romans 7:18
I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Paul himself would fall into this category
Romans 8:2
For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

Further

Romans 7:20
And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

 

[Mem]

Further

Romans 7:20
And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Yes, those verse came to mind after I posted, which then causes me wonder if I just don't know what I want to do or don't want to do anymore. I can't seem to carry out anything.

 

[Beckie]

The way I interpret Psalm 58:3 is that there may be people predisposed from birth on a path of wickedness, but they aren't literally speaking lies or plotting deceit immediately after being born. They aren't lost from the point of birth. You or @Magenta who seems to have removed herself from the conversation, occasionally reemerging to say false things about me, after making unsupported claims, have not shown that.

Children don't learn how to do that until later. This takes wisdom to understand since Psalms is usually poetic language for singing. Psalms 58 is for the choirmaster to the tune of “Do Not Destroy.” A Miktam of David.

Also, consider the more counsel from scripture:

John the baptist filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. Being filled the Holy Spirit, did he come out immediately spouting lies and deceit? If this happened to John the Baptist why can't it happen to anyone else?
Luke 1:15
15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He shall never take wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb.

Or how about these little ones who did not know good from bad? Were they telling lies too?
Deuteronomy 1:39
39And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it.

You can not post a single scripture that says , Judas operated used, as you say, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. You can only claim he did so in the general sence using 'the twelve' . Yet you discount , adjust, alter, verses like Psalms 58:3, to fit your dogma Also you made comment of me picking on your character, Then you accused @Magenta of being dishonest. Your liberal standards are screaming, double screaming.
Also you make the claim the 12 operated in the Gifts of the Spirit before the death and resurrection of Jesus. While not having scripture to support such. I believe Jesus said He gave them the power. ( I will post the scriptures later).