Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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cv5

cv5

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Runningman said:
No you’re the one who is way off base on this.

Jesus knew Judas personally, intimately, and completely in a shepherd to sheep relationship. As a result, Jesus one time said to Judas he would have eternal life.

That means Judas was either once saved always saved as you seem to believe or he lost his salvation. You’re not mature in the Word enough to accept that yet, but that’s okay! It’s all about growth and improvement. I study every day. I hope you will join me in study with an open mind and heart.
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Judas was not one of His sheep. Nor was he following Him. Judas was a rebel insider who was running his own racket for his own purposes by his own will.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Runningman said:
I don’t see how that applies to people who are either premature or just born. It says they were conformed to the ways of this world. People aren’t born conformed to the ways of this world.
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It says they are dead in their trespasses and sin. Since they are physically alive, it must be a spiritual death.
 
Beckie

Beckie

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Runningman said:
Ah I see you have begun your ad hominem phase of the discussion, along with others.

“Can’t prove them wrong so attack their character.”

I’ll leave you to that while I continue discussing the Bible. Enjoy.
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Runningman said:
No you’re the one who is way off base on this.

Jesus knew Judas personally, intimately, and completely in a shepherd to sheep relationship. As a result, Jesus one time said to Judas he would have eternal life.

That means Judas was either once saved always saved as you seem to believe or he lost his salvation. You’re not mature in the Word enough to accept that yet, but that’s okay! It’s all about growth and improvement. I study every day. I hope you will join me in study with an open mind and heart.
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Cameron143

Cameron143

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Knowing Christ does not mean making His acquaintance or spending time with Him. It means being in spiritual union and communion with Him.
This was never true of Judas.
 
R

Runningman

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Cameron143 said:
It says they are dead in their trespasses and sin. Since they are physically alive, it must be a spiritual death.
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They were dead in their trespasses and sin due to walking in conformity to the ways of the world. People aren’t born doing that. People are born with very basic needs. They don’t know anything about the corrupt world.
 
R

Runningman

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Cameron143 said:
Knowing Christ does not mean making His acquaintance or spending time with Him. It means being in spiritual union and communion with Him.
This was never true of Judas.
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I don’t accept Jesus gave Judas gifts of the Holy Spirit or told him he’ll inherit enteral life if he was not in spiritual union with God, at least at first. I can prove it with the Bible too. I’ll just stick with what the Bible says.
 
R

Runningman

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cv5 said:
Judas was not one of His sheep. Nor was he following Him. Judas was a rebel insider who was running his own racket for his own purposes by his own will.
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Not exactly. I’ve already proved otherwise, but I think it’s better if you do your own research into it. Some people can’t be be shown anything unless they feel like it’s their idea.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Runningman said:
They were dead in their trespasses and sin due to walking in conformity to the ways of the world. People aren’t born doing that. People are born with very basic needs. They don’t know anything about the corrupt world.
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My understanding of Romans 5:8-12 is this is the way we are born.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Runningman said:
I don’t accept Jesus gave Judas gifts of the Holy Spirit or told him he’ll inherit enteral life if he was not in spiritual union with God, at least at first. I can prove it with the Bible too. I’ll just stick with what the Bible says.
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Ok. Just giving food for thought.
 
R

Runningman

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Cameron143 said:
My understanding of Romans 5:8-12 is this is the way we are born.
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The way I understand Romans 5:8-12 is that sin brought spiritual death for those who sinned. Physical death, a loss of the ability to have immortality, came from losing access to the tree of life. I don’t see how we inherit Adam and Eve’s sin, but we can feel the earthly consequences of their sin.

Perhaps a better question is what sin does someone have when they’re born?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Runningman said:
The way I understand Romans 5:8-12 is that sin brought spiritual death for those who sinned. Physical death, a loss of the ability to have immortality, came from losing access to the tree of life. I don’t see how we inherit Adam and Eve’s sin, but we can feel the earthly consequences of their sin.

Perhaps a better question is what sin does someone have when they’re born?
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It's a fair question. I think the verses answer it.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Cameron143 said:
It's a fair question. I think the verses answer it.
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People are born of the natural world and need to be reborn to the spiritual.

But according to Runningman, people are born already saved.

He is so deceived he believes that Scripture teaches this :censored:
 
R

Runningman

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Magenta said:
People are born of the natural world and need to be reborn to the spiritual.

But according to Runningman, people are born already saved.

He is so deceived he believes that Scripture teaches this :censored:
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How dishonest Magenta. You have a duty to be fair and honest, is that so difficult for you?

I have not said any such thing. If you will allow this discussion to continue, you will see that there's good Biblical precedent that those who have not heard the gospel do not come under condemnation and that people are judged on the basis of sins committed voluntarily and consciously. This doesn't apply to people who were just born.

Again, the burden of proof rests squarely on your shoulders to back up your claim that people are born lost.
 
R

Runningman

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Cameron143 said:
It's a fair question. I think the verses answer it.
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They don't answer the question in my opinion, but thanks for sharing. I do always enjoy reading the Bible.

So I guess there's nothing about people being born lost? So my original assertion was correct?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Magenta said:
People are born of the natural world and need to be reborn to the spiritual.

But according to Runningman, people are born already saved.

He is so deceived he believes that Scripture teaches this :censored:
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I don't disagree. But telling someone they are wrong usually just makes them more adamant in their position. Dialogue can lead to trust. And trust can lead to consideration. And consideration can lead to truth.
Being seen as right isn't as important as loving someone. Gentleness and longsuffering will bring about more change than merely truth.
It's an old saying but true...People don't care what you know until they know that you care.
 
Mem

Mem

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Runningman said:
Not exactly. I’ve already proved otherwise, but I think it’s better if you do your own research into it. Some people can’t be be shown anything unless they feel like it’s their idea.
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The prooftexts you've drawn from for your conclusions show Jesus speaking of/to the 12 of which Judas in included. However, in one of your examples, though Peter spoke for the group saying, "we," he was speaking from his perspective while Jesus spoke "though one of you is a devil," which sets him apart from the group though he is (allowed to be?) among them. Men judge by appearances, but God judges the heart.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Mem said:
The prooftexts you've drawn from for your conclusions show Jesus speaking of/to the 12 of which Judas in included. However, in one of your examples, though Peter spoke for the group saying, "we," he was speaking from his perspective while Jesus spoke "though one of you is a devil," which sets him apart from the group though he is (allowed to be?) among them. Men judge by appearances, but God judges the heart.
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Rm puts Peter's words above Jesus', even though Peter also falsely testified of himself.
 
R

Runningman

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Mem said:
The prooftexts you've drawn from for your conclusions show Jesus speaking of/to the 12 of which Judas in included. However, in one of your examples, though Peter spoke for the group saying, "we," he was speaking from his perspective while Jesus spoke "though one of you is a devil," which sets him apart from the group though he is (allowed to be?) among them. Men judge by appearances, but God judges the heart.
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While it is true that Jesus called Judas a devil, being a devil doesn't rule out belief. As the saying goes, "even the devils believe and tremble." So what I think Peter meant was that he and the other 11, Judas included, believe that Jesus is the Son of God. There's no record of Jesus confirming or denying what Peter said, likely because Peter was correct having known Judas personally.
 
R

Runningman

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Magenta said:
Rm puts Peter's words above Jesus', even though Peter also falsely testified of himself.
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Do you believe all scripture is written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit and each word is infallible?

How is this for the words of Jesus directed at Judas?

Matthew 19
27Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Mark 10
28Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”
29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

Only believers get Eternal Life Magenta. :giggle:
 
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