Not By Works

[OneOfHis]

So is your answer both are possibilities?

No lol.

My answer im other words is, if you allow a fleeting lustful thought to continue for 2 seconds and died, you would be in the same state as that imaginary man you mentioned. (in desperate need of Jesus for any hope to be saved)


If He has began in you, you would be saved.
If He has not, you would not... for many reasons aside from what happened the moment this flesh ceased to breathe...


I having never once fornicated since being born again, am in just as much need for Jesus... even if I held every single bad thought captive from now until my death... it wouldn't add one drop to what Jesus did for me..

 

[Discern]

No lol.

My answer im other words is, if you allow a fleeting lustful thought to continue for 2 seconds and died, you would be in the same state as that imaginary man you mentioned. (in desperate need of Jesus for any hope to be saved)


If He has began in you, you would be saved.
If He has not, you would not... for many reasons aside from what happened the moment this flesh ceased to breathe...

That sounds like both. Nothing wrong. There is more than one possibility no matter if you’re osas or nosas. Right?

 

[BillG]

Yes what?

I’m not asking for a judge. I’m asking for someone who can use application of scripture to answer a question.

We don’t judge. The answer to my question is in scripture.

And I did not ask for certainty. I asked for what possibility the Bible allows for. One or both?

Very simple question

Well if the answer is in scripture why not tell me?
You have already applied the application of scripture and you know the answer to your application.

Therefore expand on it for me.

Would be interested to know why you used sexual sin as your example.

You have said it's not for debate but I think if I gave my answer then you are looking to debate.

But me thinks maybe not.
I could be totally wrong here but I'm not sure if you are looking to bait and switch.

 

[OneOfHis]

That sounds like both.

Both what?

No

it is ONE

or THE OTHER

never both


you can't mix saved and unsaved in the church

tares are tares

wheat is wheat


and our actions, will not prove one way or another who we are in Christ


they can be only evidence at best before man


for me to give a solid one way or the other

we would need to say if this professed Christian has ever actually been born again

 

[Discern]

Well if the answer is in scripture why not tell me?
You have already applied the application of scripture and you know the answer to your application.

Therefore expand on it for me.

Would be interested to know why you used sexual sin as your example.

You have said it's not for debate but I think if I gave my answer then you are looking to debate.

But me thinks maybe not.
I could be totally wrong here but I'm not sure if you are looking to bait and switch.

No, I just want to know what people’s view is. If you promise not to debate me on it, I will give my answer to the question.

 

[Discern]

Both what?

No

it is ONE

or THE OTHER

never both


you can't mix saved and unsaved in the church

tares are tares

wheat is wheat


and our actions, will not prove one way or another who we are in Christ


they can be only evidence at best before man


for me to give a solid one way or the other

we would need to say if this professed Christian has ever actually been born again

The question was... (seeing that we cannot know for sure if a person is truly saved added for clarity), which of these is a POSSIBILITY
one or both

Eternally secure

Or

Never saved

The Bible gives an answer, doesn’t it?

 

[OneOfHis]

ok here is my best possible answer at the moment @Discern


imaginary man 1 - does the things you said and loved every moment of it... felt he was justified too cause that wife was annoying and these new ladies have much more fun with him than she did

man 2 - divorced his wife wrongly.... regretted it but instead of trying to fix it the right way... went into vices... like sleeping around.... it messed with his head but he could tone it out when his body asked... lived this way for years and never quit


man 3 - divorced his wife rightfully so (she wasted all of what God provided was a horrible and dangerous person for him and their children).... and it tore him appart... he tired to fix things but she was too dangerous..... a few times through out his life he did something he KNEW he shouldnt and broke down every time.... he had a plan with a woman he was unsure about and passed away but constantly felt awful and deeply desired a more righteous life and hated his flesh and own weakness





all of these men have messed up


all of these men need mercy equally


1 seems to be a false convert.... a liar who uses Jesus name... void of a new heart


2 seems lost as well... maybe a somewhat less than completely ruined conscience...

3 seems like an immature sappling who had a weak relationship with his Father which lead to weak results in terms of growth...



but i am man

not God


if God told me all three were saved... i should be grateful for what He has done in my life and share THAT with those who seem to be like man number 2 and 3 while i avoid fellowship with 1 because he calls evil good and good evil

 

[Discern]

Both what?

No

it is ONE

or THE OTHER

never both


you can't mix saved and unsaved in the church

tares are tares

wheat is wheat


and our actions, will not prove one way or another who we are in Christ


they can be only evidence at best before man


for me to give a solid one way or the other

we would need to say if this professed Christian has ever actually been born again

if you believe eternal security, the answer should easily be BOTH

A. Because you can’t know for certain the person was saved...yet if he was, ES would say he could not lose his salvation. Even in a lifestyle of adultery

Unless you held to perserverance, your answer might be different

 

[BillG]

No, I just want to know what people’s view is. If you promise not to debate me on it, I will give my answer to the question.

Ok I promise.
Not sure my answer would be different though

 

[OneOfHis]

The question was... (seeing that we cannot know for sure if a person is truly saved added for clarity), which of these is a POSSIBILITY
one or both

Eternally secure

Or

Never saved

The Bible gives an answer, doesn’t it?

We can know if WE are saved and are told to examine ourselves. He provides assurance that we are His.



We are told to not ask who else is "saved"...

That is above us and we are told how to help provide truth to the unbelievers and correction to the believers....

He worries about who He will ascend... no?

 

[Discern]

ok here is my best possible answer at the moment @Discern


imaginary man 1 - does the things you said and loved every moment of it... felt he was justified too cause that wife was annoying and these new ladies have much more fun with him than she did

man 2 - divorced his wife wrongly.... regretted it but instead of trying to fix it the right way... went into vices... like sleeping around.... it messed with his head but he could tone it out when his body asked... lived this way for years and never quit


man 3 - divorced his wife rightfully so (she wasted all of what God provided was a horrible and dangerous person for him and their children).... and it tore him appart... he tired to fix things but she was too dangerous..... a few times through out his life he did something he KNEW he shouldnt and broke down every time.... he had a plan with a woman he was unsure about and passed away but constantly felt awful and deeply desired a more righteous life and hated his flesh and own weakness





all of these men have messed up


all of these men need mercy equally


1 seems to be a false convert.... a liar who uses Jesus name... void of a new heart


2 seems lost as well... maybe a somewhat less than completely ruined conscience...

3 seems like an immature sappling who had a weak relationship with his Father which lead to weak results in terms of growth...



but i am man

not God


if God told me all three were saved... i should be grateful for what He has done in my life and share THAT with those who seem to be like man number 2 and 3 while i avoid fellowship with 1 because he calls evil good and good evil

I am not asking you how you would judge. This is an objective question that can only be answered by scripture

 

[OneOfHis]

if you believe eternal security, the answer should easily be BOTH

A. Because you can’t know for certain the person was saved...yet if he was, ES would say he could not lose his salvation. Even in a lifestyle of adultery

Unless you held to perserverance, your answer might be different

I think maybe it is semantics... I thought you implied I said this person can be both saved and unsaved....

I tried to say he is EITHER saved or unsaved


sorry if i misunderstood you

 

[OneOfHis]

I am not asking you how you would judge. This is an objective question that can only be answered by scripture

I disagree your initial question has an objective answer with the amount of details discussed.

You said something very .... questionable....

you listed a time period of sin and death... as if either of these would OBJECTIVELY prove wether or not an imaginary man was saved... feels like a loaded gun and the bullets will be out of context verses... but maybe I am wrong

please share

 

[Discern]

I disagree your initial question has an objective answer with the amount of details discussed.

You said something very .... questionable....

you listed a time period of sin and death... as if either of these would OBJECTIVELY prove wether or not an imaginary man was saved... feels like a loaded gun and the bullets will be out of context verses... but maybe I am wrong

please share

We’re talking about possibilities.

Is it possible he was not saved?

Is it possible he was?

Simple

 

[Discern]

We’re talking about possibilities.

Is it possible he was not saved?

Is it possible he was?

Simple

Take the first one with a revision. If I was living like the imaginary man, is it possible I am not saved?

 

[Discern]

P

I think maybe it is semantics... I thought you implied I said this person can be both saved and unsaved....

I tried to say he is EITHER saved or unsaved


sorry if i misunderstood you

You did. But that’s ok.
it is nothing more than a food for thought question

 

[OneOfHis]

Take the first one with a revision. If I was living like the imaginary man, is it possible I am not saved?

With no added assumptions of his past.
Very possible.

(though id say its still possible he is not saved if he remained a faithful husband)

 

[Discern]

We can know if WE are saved and are told to examine ourselves. He provides assurance that we are His.



We are told to not ask who else is "saved"...

That is above us and we are told how to help provide truth to the unbelievers and correction to the believers....

He worries about who He will ascend... no?

Not asking for you to speculate about a person. What does the Bible say on the matter

 

[Discern]

With no added assumptions of his past.
Very possible.

Ok. Now is it possible I am saved if I die in a state of adultery

Simple yes or no

 

[Discern]

With no added assumptions of his past.
Very possible.

(though id say its still possible he is not saved if he remained a faithful husband)

Agreed.