Not By Works

[UnderGrace]

I can hear the SECURITY IN CHRIST as taught by our early Church Fathers. So how come you cannot hear it ? ? ?



“Grace with the Lord, when once learned and undertaken by us, should never afterward be cancelled by repetition of sin.” (Tertullian, A.D. 203)

“Therefore, the ones who are pardoned are those who slip into sin unintentionally and incautiously. He who sins willfully has no pardon.” (Lactantius, A.D. 304)

“By believing in Him you will live. But by disbelieving you will be punished.” (Apostolic Constitutions, A.D. 390)

“Let us therefore repent with the whole heart, so that none of us perish by the way.” (Second Clement, A.D. 150)

“Rather they must be preserved. It is not the actual attainment, but the perfecting, that keeps a man for God.” (Cyprian, A.D. 250)

“Day and night ye were anxious for the whole brotherhood, that the number of God’s elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience.” (Clement to the Corinthians, 2:7, 8)

“Having obtained good proof that thy mind is fixed in God as upon an immovable rock, I loudly glorify [His name] that I have been thought worthy [to behold] thy blameless face which may I ever enjoy in God! I entreat thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to press forward in thy course, and to exhort all that they may be saved. Maintain thy position with all care, both in the flesh and spirit.” (The Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp, 1:1)

PRAYER: Holy Father, I love You supremely. Savior of my soul, thank You for coming to die for my sins – for redeeming my life. Thank You. Thank You. Thank You. I cling to Thee alone and to the words of Your holy truth. You promised that as I stand upon Your unchanging truth, that I would forever stand in Thee! Thank You! On Christ the solid rock I do stand and all other ground is sinking sand! So be it Jesus!



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Eternal Security - Augustine 354 - 430 AD

1. Augustine teaches eternal security: "If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that "they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined." There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass." (Augustine, Treatise on the soul and its origin, Book 3, chapter 13)
2. Augustine says there are those predestined to eternal life: "what Christian is not aware that he [the devil] seduces nations even now, and draws them with himself to eternal punishment, but not those predestined to eternal life? And let no one be dismayed by the circumstance that the devil often seduces even those who have been regenerated in Christ, and begun to walk in God's way. For "the Lord knoweth them that are His," and of these the devil seduces none to eternal damnation," (Augustine, The City of God, Book 20, Chapter 7).
3. Augustine says we can't lose our salvation: The seventh [error of Vincentius Victor] is, that "they whom the Lord has predestinated to be baptized may be taken away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined." (Augustine, Treatise on the soul and its origin, Book 3, chapter 22)

Of course St. Augustine was a Calvinist .... "God picks those who He knows will persevere" ...... I prefer the promises of God.

Augustine was "converted' after talking to Ambrose about the monastic life and aestheticism... that should pose a problem right there.... become celibate and ye shall be saved!!

And St Augustine can keep his City of God ......boring!

Please do not talk about any Catholics to me, I can feel my temperature rising..... I left that a long time ago and I find not one thing of value added to my life in its dogma.

Seeing the the Vatican this summer and sensing the presence of evil just further cemented my already strong views.

 

[VCO]

Of course St. Augustine was a Calvinist .... "God picks those who He knows will persevere" ...... I prefer the promises of God.

Augustine was "converted' after talking to Ambrose about the monastic life and aestheticism... that should pose a problem right there.... become celibate and ye shall be saved!!

And St Augustine can keep his City of God ......boring!

Please do not talk about any Catholics to me, I can feel my temperature rising..... I left that a long time ago and I find not one thing of value added to my life in its dogma.

Seeing the the Vatican this summer and sensing the presence of evil just further cemented my already strong views.

I gave you SEVERAL, some of them were DEFINITELY NON-Catholic. I left Lutheran Church about 1980, because the Teaching of the WORD, was less important to them, than the ritualistic Order of Service. He Told Peter three times to FEED HIS SHEEP, not to perform the ritualistic Order of Service. Sounds like you left the Catholic Church for about the same reason, as I left the Lutheran Church. So denying that there were not any teachers of the Security In Christ in the early Church; is simply NOT THE TRUTH. No need to continue this discussion.

 

[dcontroversal]

It is so sad that people think God gives the most precious gift the universe will ever know to people either

1. KNOWING he will have to take it back because the person for some reason does not want it anymore
2. Have to prove how he is really not omniscient, that people can fool him, so he gets tricked into giving his gift to a sinner who will not live up to his standard and continue in sin.

Face it people, if we do not have eternal security, we have no hope, and we are of all people hopeless having faith in a faulty God.

AMEN......the following is absolutely true....

The Bible -->Hope = a confident expectation of something guaranteed

Salvation Losers --> Hope = I bought a lottery ticket and HOPE I win the prize

 

[Lightskin]

Then you are out.

😲

 

[VCO]

If memory serves even Peter & Paul had disagreements about doctrine.

That may have been almost a knock down, drag out Fight.

Galatians 2:11-21 (HCSB)
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned.
12 For he regularly ate with the Gentiles before certain men came from James. However, when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, because he feared those from the circumcision party.
13 Then the rest of the Jews joined his hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
14 But when I saw that they were deviating from the truth of the gospel, I told Cephas in front of everyone, “If you, who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel Gentiles to live like Jews?”
15 We who are Jews by birth and not “Gentile sinners”
16 know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.
17 But if we ourselves are also found to be “sinners” while seeking to be justified by Christ, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not!
18 If I rebuild the system I tore down, I show myself to be a lawbreaker.
19 For through the law I have died to the law, so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ
20 and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

 

[DeighAnn]

Satan had eternal life once. But he threw it all away WHEN HE QUIT GODS WAY and went about doing it his own way, yes?

 

[mailmandan]

Satan had eternal life once. But he threw it all away WHEN HE QUIT GODS WAY and went about doing it his own way, yes?

So what are you trusting in for salvation? Christ alone or Christ + works? If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer?

 

[DeighAnn]

So what are you trusting in for salvation? Christ alone or Christ + works? If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer?

I have been given the gift of salvation, just as you. That gift was given to me at the beginning of my walk, I would imagine that was like you also. I just don't believe in OSAS. I understand that YOU BELIEVE that makes me "a worker for salvation" but since I already have been given that gift, no matter how hard I work, it just doesn't change the fact that the gift was given previous to all my works for God.

I know YOU THINK that I must be feeling like I must be "maintaining my salvation" with my works, but I don't, never crosses my mind really. I just believe that God gave souls "freewill" and as such they have the freewill to come to God and the freewill to choose to leave, just like Satan did. I believe there is a real adversary hunting for souls to steal away from God whos deception is so real that if you do not have the full gospel armor to withstand the fiery darts of Satan that you will be deceived and loose that gift, not have it "taken away" I believe the word bears my beliefs out time and again. There were also the fallen angels who "chose" to leave their habitation. Nothing new under the sun.

Judgment comes after death, not before. Follow God, no worries. Quit following God, worry, God will not be mocked. Simple really. There are 2 sides to the gulf. Some will reign with Christ 1000 yrs. Many are called, few are chosen. There is the millennium or Lords Day before the great throne judgment. True I can't see many not "getting it" at the end of that, but I

I realize you can't fathom how my beliefs are such, but they are. How many sins are "too many" you may ask? My answer is only God knows. He is the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, not me. It is His eternal kingdom not mine. And no evil shall come into it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So what are you trusting in for salvation? Christ alone or Christ + works? If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer?

trying to relate satans situation with ours is prety crazy, And he did not have eternal life. He was just alive in christ, eternal life was never offered until AFTER the fall

Satan was never offered eternal life after he fell. huge difference.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Satan had eternal life once. But he threw it all away WHEN HE QUIT GODS WAY and went about doing it his own way, yes?

where does the bible say Satan had eternal life?

 

[DeighAnn]

where does the bible say Satan had eternal life?

That would be in the first earth age before "iniquity" was found in him. Or do you think God killed the souls He created even when they had never sinned?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That would be in the first earth age before "iniquity" was found in him. Or do you think God killed the souls He created even when they had never sinned?

I want to see the word eternal.

You said he had eternal life, where does it say this?

I know he had life, but no place can I find where God told him he ever had ETERNAL life

 

[DeighAnn]

I want to see the word eternal.

You said he had eternal life, where does it say this?

I know he had life, but no place can I find where God told him he ever had ETERNAL life

Then show me where He said he didn't. I want to se where God told him he didn't

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then show me where He said he didn't. I want to se where God told him he didn't

lol. Sorry, You need to show me where it said he had eternal life. Eternal means forever. If Satan had eternal life, it would be forever,

I think we see that by the fact he fell he did not have eternal life,


All angels and Adam and Eve had conditional life. They did not have eternal life.

The fallen angels (including Satan) and Adam and Eve failed to keep Gods conditions, and thus DIED. Only Adam and Eve and their offspring were offered ETERNAL LIFE. no angel was ever offered that GIFT

 

[DeighAnn]

lol. Sorry, You need to show me where it said he had eternal life. Eternal means forever. If Satan had eternal life, it would be forever,

I think we see that by the fact he fell he did not have eternal life,


All angels and Adam and Eve had conditional life. They did not have eternal life.

The fallen angels (including Satan) and Adam and Eve failed to keep Gods conditions, and thus DIED. Only Adam and Eve and their offspring were offered ETERNAL LIFE. no angel was ever offered that GIFT

Dude, if he was the first and remains to only one by name sentenced to death, then before that happened, there was no death. No one has ever died, spiritually wise yet. And lake of fire death only came into play 2000 ys ago. There rest is common sense.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dude, if he was the first and remains to only one by name sentenced to death, then before that happened, there was no death. No one has ever died, spiritually wise yet. And lake of fire death only came into play 2000 ys ago. There rest is common sense.

Your right, before that there was no death, That does not mean they had ETERNAL life. Thats the part I think you are not seeing

Satan was the first to die spiritually, And he convinced 1/4 of the angels to follow him to spiritual death

Adam and Eve died, just like God promised they would on the day they disobeyed him. And since that point, all men have been born dead in Adam

Only men have been offered eternal life.

once again, before the fall of any angel or man, they had CONDITIONAL LIFE. (their continued life was dependent on them maintianing conditions to keep that life. if they failed to keep those conditions, they would die, Satan died because he failed to keep those conditions, as did adam and eve,

at the point of the fall of mankind, God was forced to relate to his creation by the means of grace ONLY. (Satan was never offered grace)

 

[Chester]

I want to see the word eternal.

You said he had eternal life, where does it say this?

I know he had life, but no place can I find where God told him he ever had ETERNAL life

lol. Sorry, You need to show me where it said he had eternal life. Eternal means forever. If Satan had eternal life, it would be forever,

I think we see that by the fact he fell he did not have eternal life,


All angels and Adam and Eve had conditional life. They did not have eternal life.

The fallen angels (including Satan) and Adam and Eve failed to keep Gods conditions, and thus DIED. Only Adam and Eve and their offspring were offered ETERNAL LIFE. no angel was ever offered that GIFT

Dude, if he was the first and remains to only one by name sentenced to death, then before that happened, there was no death. No one has ever died, spiritually wise yet. And lake of fire death only came into play 2000 ys ago. There rest is common sense.

It might help if we tried to define eternal life as the Bible defines it. The noun "life" not the adjective "eternal" is the starting point. Is "life" primarily physical life or spiritual life? I think it is primarily spiritual life The Greek word is "zoe" not "bios" (which is physical life).

John 17:3 defines "eternal life" this way: "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

So to answer the question: Did Satan have eternal life? I do not think any text says yes or no to the question. Did Satan "know God and Jesus Christ" as John defines "eternal life" -- He certainly knew God in ways none of us do, but on the other hand he obviously did not know God the way the believer does today.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It might help if we tried to define eternal life as the Bible defines it. The noun "life" not the adjective "eternal" is the starting point. Is "life" primarily physical life or spiritual life? I think it is primarily spiritual life The Greek word is "zoe" not "bios" (which is physical life).

John 17:3 defines "eternal life" this way: "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

So to answer the question: Did Satan have eternal life? I do not think any text says yes or no to the question. Did Satan "know God and Jesus Christ" as John defines "eternal life" -- He certainly knew God in ways none of us do, but on the other hand he obviously did not know God the way the believer does today.

I think we have to define the difference between eternal life and conditional life

eternal means forever

conditional means not forever

if eternal life can ever stop being life, (if one can still die) it is not eternal. it is conditional, because a conditions is placed on the continuance of that life (whatever that condition may be)

In both Satan and adam and Eve's case. the condition to continue in life was to never sin, God actually made it easy for adam and told him one thing he must follow (one condition) if he wanted to stay alive, failure to follow that condition would result in death.

after that death, we are offered a gift, all we are asked to do is recieve that gift. (which we will never do if we do not have faith in God) at that point, it stops being conditional life, and becomes eternal life.






whether or not we are talking about eternal physical or spiritual life does not negate the fact that eternal means forever.

 

[Hevosmies358]

Satan had eternal life once. But he threw it all away WHEN HE QUIT GODS WAY and went about doing it his own way, yes?

CHAPTER AND VERSE ON THAT? Satan had eternal life uhh WHAT?

Mamma mia, its time for me to take a break again.

 

[DeighAnn]

Your right, before that there was no death, That does not mean they had ETERNAL life. Thats the part I think you are not seeing

Satan was the first to die spiritually, And he convinced 1/4 of the angels to follow him to spiritual death

Adam and Eve died, just like God promised they would on the day they disobeyed him. And since that point, all men have been born dead in Adam

Only men have been offered eternal life.

once again, before the fall of any angel or man, they had CONDITIONAL LIFE. (their continued life was dependent on them maintianing conditions to keep that life. if they failed to keep those conditions, they would die, Satan died because he failed to keep those conditions, as did adam and eve,

at the point of the fall of mankind, God was forced to relate to his creation by the means of grace ONLY. (Satan was never offered grace)

I don't have much time so I am not being exact but will get you all the scripture you need this evening if you like so don't hold me to perfection this is all just off the top of my head
Satan hasn't died, he is being held by Michael in heaven accusing day and night until the war in heaven and he and his angels are cast to earth where he will have but a short time. the hour of temptation. At the beginning of the Lords day he will be bound and put in the pit where people will ask " is this the man that deceived the world" and he will be loosed a short time at the end of the millennium to deceive who he can and at the end of that will be cast into the lake of fire. The angels are also being held and none will die until the end of the millennium when the lake of fire appears at the great throne judgment. God is the God of the living not the dead. No one has died, just left their flesh corruptible bodies and put on their incorruptible bodies. If you do not understand the beginning you can not understand the end. Tell me, when did Satan go bad? Why is God telling Job that as He was creating the earth that all the sons and stars shouted for joy and sang in the morning?