Not By Works

[Budman]

It's becoming difficult to speak to you so it may have to stop....

It's becoming difficult for you because you get proven wrong at every turn.

Do you believe that once saved, we could sin all we want to and still be saved?
Clarify yourself,,because this is what comes off from YOUR statements.

I said we WILL continue to sin. How many more times must I say this?

3. I DO NOT PUT PERSONS ON IGNORE.
you could believe it or not....I'm not interested.

Okay. This is for anyone reading this, Fran claims she does not put people on ignore. Please go to post #88,962 page 4449 and check if she is lying.

 

[AllenW]

OSAS here.
We are not saved by works.

 

[Budman]

Hi Bud,

You say we are caught in sin until we die, though called holy, righteous, sinless.

This is a statement of faith, which if true, would lead to your conclusions.
If on the other hand we do not accept this, but rather the flesh is cleansed of sin, we are purified,
literally, made whole and acceptable before God as cleansed believers, then your proposition is wrong.

The priests in the temple were regarded as Holy, purified and went through a purification process.
You do not believe this actually happened, and they were just regarded as Holy while not being so.

This is not what God declared.

Take the Levites from among the other Israelites and make them ceremonially clean.
To purify them, do this: Sprinkle the water of cleansing on them; then have them shave their whole bodies and wash their clothes, and so purify themselves.
Numbers 8:7-8

The Levites purified themselves and washed their clothes. Then Aaron presented them as a wave offering before the LORD and made atonement for them to purify them.
After that, the Levites came to do their work at the Tent of Meeting under the supervision of Aaron and his sons. They did with the Levites just as the LORD commanded Moses.
Num 8:21-22

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

If you do not believe scripture you can never be pure.

If you don't believe we have two natures, there is no way to understand why we still sin, yet have been declared as righteous as Jesus.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

This is wrong

why do you people never try to understad others, Why do you always have to slander them with non truths (lies) because you refuse to listen to them?

Hi,
Maybe words do not have the same meaning to you as to me.
You are saying I have not understood these sentences

"We are in the flesh. We still have the "Old Man", which means we will still sin. Yet, we have been declared holy, righteous, perfect, and sinless by God."

Bud is saying we are in the "old man", is actually in sin and still sinning, ie not cleansed, pure and holy.
He then says the uncleansed, impure, and unholy is declared holy, righteous, perfect and sinless.

Maybe I have miss-understood, but it appears not.
If we are forgiven, purified, cleansed, washed clean, we are not dirty or defiled or unholy.
Simple analogy, if as a child you come in from playing and are dirty, declaring you clean can be done.

Or being cleaned, and when clean being declared clean.

Now it appears to me, Bud is saying though we are dirty we are told we are clean.
I am saying this is not true, we are cleansed, and once cleansed declared clean.

Is there something wrong here in my understanding of the two positions?
How is this slander to any degree, please tell me, I want to seriously know because I have no intent to
slander or lie?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Thanks.

So YOU also believe in OSAS.

Once you are born again...you can sin all you want to and not become lost again.

False... please do not impute beliefs to me...

God gave me a new heart, if I sinned all I WANTED it is 0....

but ya
if I do in fact sin

I am still saved

the ridiculous silly "sin all you want" strawman arugment i have destroyed maybe 15 times

two from you
this makes three

once you said you never said anything like that before 😂😂😂


it ignores the new heart and desires God gives to His children

the Holy spirit

and ignores our Father who will chasten us

 

[Budman]

The verse quoted uses two words - practices - poiei and continues sinning - hamartanein

So this does not say a believe will not stumble or have struggles and issues, but their desire and direction
is to walk righteously.

So this is my heart also, where my commitment and spirit reside in Christ, to walk as Jesus walked.

It also says you cannot sin.

Keep dancing.

 

[GodsGrace101]

We are in the flesh. We still have the "Old Man", which means we will still sin. Yet, we have been declared holy, righteous, perfect, and sinless by God.

How can that be?

The two natures. The "Flesh" and our New Nature in Christ. That's also why the Bible says a believer does not sin, nor can he. That is speaking of the New Nature. If not, none of us would be saved.

Get it now, Chubby Checker?

You still have the old man?
Have you not been converted after repentance?
Conversion comes after repentance.
God changes our heart condition.

Here are some verses for you:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Colossians 3:5-9
Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,


Colossians 3:9-10
and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--



Ephesians 4:22-24
that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;



Galatians 5:25
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.


1 Peter 2:1
Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,


1 Peter 1:14
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,



1 Peter 2:24
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.


[Please notice that Peter, an Apostle of Jesus....states above that WE ARE to RIGHTEOUS.
Some Christians speak about righteousness as if it's wrong....]


1 John 1:6-7
If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[Budman]

My question was ....what sins do we commit everyday that God doesn't give us a way of escape from?

In light of this.....what sin do I HAVE to commit????

The ones I do commit I have to bypass God's way of escape and rebel.......Samuel told King Saul rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV

How often a day do you not choose the way of escape?

 

[Budman]

You still have the old man?
Have you not been converted after repentance?
Conversion comes after repentance.
God changes our heart condition.

Here are some verses for you:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Colossians 3:5-9
Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,


Colossians 3:9-10
and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--



Ephesians 4:22-24
that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;



Galatians 5:25
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.


1 Peter 2:1
Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,


1 Peter 1:14
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,



1 Peter 2:24
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.


[Please notice that Peter, an Apostle of Jesus....states above that WE ARE to RIGHTEOUS.
Some Christians speak about righteousness as if it's wrong....]


1 John 1:6-7
If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Hey Fran. If you no longer have the Old Man, why do you continue to sin?

 

[Budman]

False... please do not impute beliefs to me...

Get used to that. It's her forte'

 

[mailmandan]

The lost need salvation, as a sinner.

They must repent, and return to the Lord, and be reconciled back to Him.

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard,

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:21-23

The word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith." That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the Gk. particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians whose shallow, temporary belief withers away?

It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here that they will be eternally saved when in fact some of them may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow, temporary belief was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.

1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe).

 

[FollowHisSteps]

What amazes me is the lengths people go to justify evil behaviour.

I have met pure souls, people who make me feel humble and I just want to hug.
I was with a lady yesterday, who has cancer, who is retired and yet desires to love and share here heart
and time with others. She wants to see good things in others, and may not see a few months more, and
maybe a few years. She burns like a light in the darkness, with the love Jesus has poured out on her.

It is like I should go and analyse all her actions and come out with a list of failures which she must
repent of or be damned to hell. Or that God would condemn her for.

Listen to God.

'Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known,
and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, "We are safe"-safe to do all these detestable things?
Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the LORD.
Jer 7:9-11

Gods problem with man is with his obvious, open sin. And it is this that brings judgement. And this rebellion springs
from a selfish heart not lost in praise and worship to the King.

But evil men will always try and defile the works of Gods hands, and design ways to create guilt and despair, to
steal hope from the lips of children who rejoice in the grace and love the Lord gives them.

 

[Budman]

What amazes me is the lengths people go to justify evil behaviour.

You twist things more than Chubby Checker.

 

[GodsGrace101]

If you steal, you are a thief. If you kill, you are a murderer. If you lie, you are a liar. If you sin, you are a sinner.

"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." (James 4:17)

And just as the sin of divination is called rebellion in 1 Samuel 15:23, so are all other sins. By sinning, you are rebelling against God's order - His rules, His commandments. You are opposing them when you choose to sin.

That sounds good to me.
So why do you concentrate so much on saying that you're a sinner?

Here's what I've come to believe....
We are no longer children of the evil one...
We are children of God now...
So though we still have the sin nature,,,it is put under submission by the Holy Spirit so that the very desire to sin is almost abolished and very much cut down --- really a lot! I think because we don't want to hurt the One who went to the cross for us....

The N.T. calls us saints...


1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Maybe we should stop thinking of ourselves as sinners and start thinking of ourselves as saints?

BTW,,, Jesus raised the bar and said if we HATE OUR BROTHER,,, it's the same as MURDER.
He brings everything to the heart level precisely because He wants an inner change....

 

[Hevosmies]

Are you obeying God while you sin every day?

But does sinning in thought for example daily equal not obeying?

The Bible talks about people being obedient, so someone must be obedient! or atleast was back then!

 

[FollowHisSteps]

If you don't believe we have two natures, there is no way to understand why we still sin, yet have been declared as righteous as Jesus.

I think you believe religious language too much.
We justify ourselves and are tempted for personal gain, which is often called our sinful nature.
It is also a reality of having self awareness and seeing both good and evil. It is not sinful, it just
desires to see the options.

We also have our own awareness of what we would like to be, or appear to be. This is our aspirations,
which are normally something we are not, but would like to be.

Some say the gap between the two defines ones sanity or mental health.
Addiction is the bending of the will to a behaviour which we seem to be unable to break.

The lie is to say this is not within our ability to change. God provides the way, but those with unbelief
think this way is only when we get to heaven and we are forever locked into what we are.

In truth then why are not all serial killers, serial killers from the day they are born, or rapists, or
murderers, or thieves, and why is there hope for all to become transformed, holy righteous people
in Christ to a degree Paul says this

Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you.
Phil 3:17

It is absurd for Paul to declare there is any example any could follow unless Jesus changes us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I measure up.

You are willing to stand in front of God and say you measure up??

Think a little. If we walk with Jesus sin burns within us and we work to resolve it all.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1 John 3:9

The verse quoted uses two words - practices - poiei and continues sinning - hamartanein

So this does not say a believe will not stumble or have struggles and issues, but their desire and direction
is to walk righteously.

So this is my heart also, where my commitment and spirit reside in Christ, to walk as Jesus walked.

If you walk in unbelief that this is Gods passion for you, little wonder you do not see it working out in your life
because unbelief does not reside with Gods power.

It says it is impossible for them to live in sin, period.

Again, When you you going to open up and learn what the term flesh means?

 

[GodsGrace101]

It's becoming difficult for you because you get proven wrong at every turn.



I said we WILL continue to sin. How many more times must I say this?



Okay. This is for anyone reading this, Fran claims she does not put people on ignore. Please go to post #88,962 page 4449 and check if she is lying.

Here's is all of post 88,962:

Budman said:
Who said I loved the world?

Dcon is right. You are a deceiver and twist what people actually say - adding whatever you like.

To the iggy bin you go.

GodsGrace101 said:
Right.
It's tough to hear the truth.
To the iggy bin you go...

Anyone on this thread that knows me knows I don't put persons on ignore.
I was just repeating what you said sarcastically.
I didn't even know what the iggy bin is. It sounded like a trash can.

Let me repeat it for you:
I DO NOT PUT PERSONS ON IGNORE.
Take it or leave it.

Arguing about stuff like this is CHILDISH.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My question was ....what sins do we commit everyday that God doesn't give us a way of escape from?

In light of this.....what sin do I HAVE to commit????

1. I never said otherwise
2. WHo said you HAD to commit a sin?

I thought you were open, Your gonna sit there and think you know what people are saying? or are you willing to understand? Mocking people because you do not understand a point they are trying to make does not help you

The ones I do commit I have to bypass God's way of escape and rebel.......Samuel told King Saul rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV

Again, Your looking at overt sins. And again, Are you going to be willing to understand what the flesh means?

 

[dcontroversal]

Assuming you believe in the possibility for a believer to backslid, like King David......lust... adultery....murder etc. If David had died do you think he would still went to heaven?

Let me answer by asking....Do you believe any of the following fail? Do you believe any of the following? If salvation can be lost or forfeit then the following are false and it is dependent UPON WHAT WE DO and NOT what CHRIST HAS DONE or DOES.

I will never leave thee or forsake thee <--IF he leaves and forsakes ONE this is not true
NOTHING can separate us from the love of God <----does SIN qualify as NOTHING
JESUS will LOSE nothing but raise it up the last day <---IF he LOSES ONE he began faith with this is false
Where sin abounds GRACE abounds the more <--written to believers
Jesus BEGINS, FINISHES and COMPLETES the word of FAITH in us <--DOES HE FAIL
The spirit is BORN again from INCORRUPTIBLE SEED <---can it be corrupted
We are saved to the UTTERMOST and KEPT by the power of GOD <---What does KEPT MEAN
The GIFTS and CALLING of GOD are IRREVOCABLE <---is salvation a GIFT
God CHASTENS every son he receives <---WHY does God chasten his children, is it not sin and rebellion?
If we BELIEVE not HE ABIDES FAITHFUL....<---This was written to believers and includes the Apostle JESUS cannot deny himself
We are in the Father's hand and Christ's hand <---What can remove us....NO MAN can.....and did he pay our sin debt or NOT
We are SEALED UNTO the day of redemption <----I do not see the words unless, or if or but, I do see UNTO THE DAY OF
Why use eternal or everlasting life <---if it is conditional or losable....God does not mince words
When I see the blood I will pass over you <---Has not the blood been applied by faith, does blood stain or not
He entered ONCE having OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION for us <-----If losable this verse is not true, and would say TEMPORAL
ETC.............

Besides the above, and there are many more......Perfect tense GREEK verbs and Aorist TENSE GREEK verbs PROVE that salvation is an ongoing event with present continuing results from a past completed action. The only "SIN" that sins anyone to ell is the failure to acknowledge Christ by saving faith and exactly why JESUS said the Pharisees would die in their SINS because they had denied the work of Christ by attributing it to the power of the devil instead of the Holy Spirit.......MANY misunderstand the word repent and the implications when it comes to changing ones mind and agreeing with GOD....

DAVID was saved, speaks of his salvation in the present tense and the only thing that was severed by his sin was his fellowship with GOD...HE was a son by birth and that can never change.....Our Father can be mad at us, put us in the corner, whip our butts off and maybe even take us home prematurely based upon disobedience and sin, BUT HE WILL NEVER leave us or forsake us........FOR DAVID or anyone for that matter to lose or forfeit salvation THE above must fail or be false.