Not By Works
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Hi Budman, the first century Church said exactly the same thing..... 
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Mathew7:13,14
13) Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14) But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Mathew7:13,14
13) Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14) But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Hi Budman, the first century Church said exactly the same thing.....
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Mathew7:13,14
13) Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14) But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Mathew7:13,14
13) Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14) But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Thanks.
Oh. Please make sure they weren't gnostics...
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The 1st century Church believers quoted scripture just as Church believers quote scriptures today. When Jesus said the words; "Without me you can do nothing." isn't that enough for you that Jesus is all that we need for salvation, because this conversation began talking about salvation by grace through faith in Jesus is all we need, "Jesus PLUS anything is a FALSE GOSPEL."
Quote Fran; "Oh. Please make sure they weren't gnostics..."
Are you serious your post is nothing but a bunch of nonsense, good bye
Bye Bye Nonsense
John15:5
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Mathew7:13,14
13) Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14) But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Quote Fran; "Oh. Please make sure they weren't gnostics..."
Are you serious your post is nothing but a bunch of nonsense, good bye
Bye Bye Nonsense
John15:5
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Mathew7:13,14
13) Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14) But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.
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YOU ARE 100% CORRECT:
Faith in JESUS + Works = FALSE GOSPEL
Faith in JESUS + Water Baptism = FALSE GOSPEL
Faith in JESUS + Order of Service = FALSE GOSPEL
Faith in JESUS + Sitting on a Pew = FALSE GOSPEL
Faith in JESUS + RESIGHTING the Apostles Creed = FALSE GOSPEL
Faith in JESUS + Getting the Water Baptized for the DEAD = FALSE GOSPEL
Faith in JESUS + SINGING IN THE CHOIR = FALSE GOSPEL
ETC, ETC.
Add anything to FAITH in JESUS, and you have created a False Gospel.
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Of course, as usual, I don't post for YOUR good since you already know everything...
however, there are some reading along that should know the correct Word of God and I can't see it in your post above.
WHERE are the support links for stating that the early church thought we should believe in Jesus ALONE with nothing else necessary?
First, I'd like to say that when Jesus quoted scripture He quoted from the Old Testament.
Where, in the O:T., did it say we need only to believe in Jesus???
When Jesus said "Without Me you can do nothing"
John 15:5
He did NOT mean what you think He meant. Actually, He was saying what I've been posting here for the past couple of months.
Let's start at
John 15:4-6
4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
As you can see in verse 4 we are required, as Christians, to bear fruit --- we cannot bear this fruit apart from Jesus. It's so good of you to always prove my point with scripture; this is because the truth cannot be hidden and will always come out.
In verse 5 we're told that we should bear much fruit, again, apart from Jesus this is not possible. He helps us to bear much fruit.
In verse 6 we're told that if we do not abide in Him, we are thrown away like a branch,,,it dries up, is gathered and cast into the fire and burned.
Very simple verses to understand.
You can disagree with Jesus if you wish.
John 14:6
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Of course, Jesus is the Way,,,and everything He taught is HIS Way to be born from above...not a way that has been recently invented which required nothing from us.
Mathew 25:34-46
WHO will inherit the Kingom of God?
Mathew 25:40
Mathew 7:13-14
13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Did you ever wonder why the gate is narrow that leads to life and why so few find it?
Because most follow an easy form of Christianity that was not known from the time of Jesus...
HERE is what the early christians after Jesus believed...
What you did not deem correct to post since they did not agree with you:
The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. . . . He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works. Barnabas (c. 70-130), 1.148, 149.
We are justified by our works and not our words. Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.13.
. . . that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. . . . Faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. . . . The tree is made manifest by its fruit. So those who profess themselves to be Christians will be recognized by their conduct. . . . It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not be one. Ignatius (c. 105), 1.51-55.
Therefore, brethren, by doing the will of the Father, and keeping the flesh holy, and observing the commandments of the Lord, we will obtain eternal life. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.519.
Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them. Hermas (c. 150), 2.25.
We . . . hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that those who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. . . . Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. Justin Martyr (c. 160), 1.165, 166.
We will give account to God not only of deeds (as slaves), but even of words and thoughts (as being those who have truly received the power of liberty). For under liberty, a man is more severely tested as to whether he will reverence, fear, and love the Lord. . . . God desires obedience, which renders [His worshippers] secure—rather than sacrifices and burnt-offerings, which avail men nothing toward righteousness. Irenaeus (c. 180), 1.482.
When we hear, "Your faith has saved you," we do not understand Him to say absolutely that those who have believed in any way whatsoever will be saved. For works must also follow. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195), 2.505.
source: What the Early Christians Believed About Salvation - chasingalion.com
AND, After the bible was put together in the 4th century,,,
those epistles also taught works,,,just as Jesus did.
Here are some of very many verses that state good works are required to maintain salvation...
Galatians 6:9-10
Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
Luke 6:35
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
1 Peter 3:8-13
To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good?
Hebrews 13:16
And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
And let us not forget:
John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Romans 2:5-11
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Those who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus are required to do good works because Jesus is their teacher and Jesus, as did Paul, attested to the fact that we must do good in order to qualify to be inserted into the Kingdom of God.
however, there are some reading along that should know the correct Word of God and I can't see it in your post above.
WHERE are the support links for stating that the early church thought we should believe in Jesus ALONE with nothing else necessary?
First, I'd like to say that when Jesus quoted scripture He quoted from the Old Testament.
Where, in the O:T., did it say we need only to believe in Jesus???
When Jesus said "Without Me you can do nothing"
John 15:5
He did NOT mean what you think He meant. Actually, He was saying what I've been posting here for the past couple of months.
Let's start at
John 15:4-6
4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
As you can see in verse 4 we are required, as Christians, to bear fruit --- we cannot bear this fruit apart from Jesus. It's so good of you to always prove my point with scripture; this is because the truth cannot be hidden and will always come out.
In verse 5 we're told that we should bear much fruit, again, apart from Jesus this is not possible. He helps us to bear much fruit.
In verse 6 we're told that if we do not abide in Him, we are thrown away like a branch,,,it dries up, is gathered and cast into the fire and burned.
Very simple verses to understand.
You can disagree with Jesus if you wish.
John 14:6
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Of course, Jesus is the Way,,,and everything He taught is HIS Way to be born from above...not a way that has been recently invented which required nothing from us.
Mathew 25:34-46
WHO will inherit the Kingom of God?
Mathew 25:40
Mathew 7:13-14
13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Did you ever wonder why the gate is narrow that leads to life and why so few find it?
Because most follow an easy form of Christianity that was not known from the time of Jesus...
HERE is what the early christians after Jesus believed...
What you did not deem correct to post since they did not agree with you:
The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. . . . He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works. Barnabas (c. 70-130), 1.148, 149.
We are justified by our works and not our words. Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.13.
. . . that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. . . . Faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. . . . The tree is made manifest by its fruit. So those who profess themselves to be Christians will be recognized by their conduct. . . . It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not be one. Ignatius (c. 105), 1.51-55.
Therefore, brethren, by doing the will of the Father, and keeping the flesh holy, and observing the commandments of the Lord, we will obtain eternal life. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.519.
Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them. Hermas (c. 150), 2.25.
We . . . hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that those who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. . . . Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. Justin Martyr (c. 160), 1.165, 166.
We will give account to God not only of deeds (as slaves), but even of words and thoughts (as being those who have truly received the power of liberty). For under liberty, a man is more severely tested as to whether he will reverence, fear, and love the Lord. . . . God desires obedience, which renders [His worshippers] secure—rather than sacrifices and burnt-offerings, which avail men nothing toward righteousness. Irenaeus (c. 180), 1.482.
When we hear, "Your faith has saved you," we do not understand Him to say absolutely that those who have believed in any way whatsoever will be saved. For works must also follow. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195), 2.505.
source: What the Early Christians Believed About Salvation - chasingalion.com
AND, After the bible was put together in the 4th century,,,
those epistles also taught works,,,just as Jesus did.
Here are some of very many verses that state good works are required to maintain salvation...
Galatians 6:9-10
Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
Luke 6:35
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
1 Peter 3:8-13
To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good?
Hebrews 13:16
And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
And let us not forget:
John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Romans 2:5-11
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Those who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus are required to do good works because Jesus is their teacher and Jesus, as did Paul, attested to the fact that we must do good in order to qualify to be inserted into the Kingdom of God.
I don't think the Gnostics believed that.
Inner knowledge and experience.
Saved by knowledge.
If memory serves me they did not believe died on the cross and rose again physically.
That's why John had to address this heresy.
1 John 1:1-4 (NKJV)
What Was Heard, Seen, and Touched
(John 1:1–5)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
The gnostics were not saved by Jesus because they were saved by knowledge
So they did not need to believe in the real Jesus. Who died in the flesh, rose again in the flesh.
Inner knowledge and experience.
Saved by knowledge.
If memory serves me they did not believe died on the cross and rose again physically.
That's why John had to address this heresy.
1 John 1:1-4 (NKJV)
What Was Heard, Seen, and Touched
(John 1:1–5)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
The gnostics were not saved by Jesus because they were saved by knowledge
So they did not need to believe in the real Jesus. Who died in the flesh, rose again in the flesh.
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Exactly.........when we insert ourself and or our effort to gain, keep or maintain it we devalue it to the status of being void of power.....
Unleavened bread and without blemish or spot!
We corrupt the above by adding what we do or have done.......
God instituted the passover and he did not say to cut or prick yourself and mingle in your blood......!!!!!
Unleavened bread and without blemish or spot!
We corrupt the above by adding what we do or have done.......
God instituted the passover and he did not say to cut or prick yourself and mingle in your blood......!!!!!
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U
I so understand what you mean, there is a spiritual effect of allowing oneself to be continually exposed to false teachings.
Sometimes we have to shake the dust off our feet and move on, I know that I have found that hard to do sometimes but I have learned and I am now more cautious.
Sometimes we have to shake the dust off our feet and move on, I know that I have found that hard to do sometimes but I have learned and I am now more cautious.
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Right.
But some will post writings of the gnostic heretics instead of the early church theologians, or fathers, maybe by mistake... Maybe not.
I asked @TruthTalk to post some support regarding his incorrect statement that the early father's believed in Jesus only. But I see he preferred to disappear.
The early fathers believed that belief in jesus was pivotal, but they did taught that we did need good deeds to remain saved. I posted some of their statements above.... There are many more.
But some will post writings of the gnostic heretics instead of the early church theologians, or fathers, maybe by mistake... Maybe not.
I asked @TruthTalk to post some support regarding his incorrect statement that the early father's believed in Jesus only. But I see he preferred to disappear.
The early fathers believed that belief in jesus was pivotal, but they did taught that we did need good deeds to remain saved. I posted some of their statements above.... There are many more.
Hello again forum, all of us who trust in Jesus Christ for our eternal salvation and put no hope in our works to save our soul understand the words from the song; "Jesus paid it all all to Him I owe"
Then people like Fran come along with a counterfeit gospel saying "no no no", you cannot "just rely on Jesus"
you need to add works to God's grace so you can to keep or maintain your salvation. What Fran and others are blind to see, and will not even acknowledge, is the fact that God has prepared in advance the works for true believers to do "after we are save."Eph.2:9.
People of the same ilk as Fran do not have a clue that their salvation is a gift and that our works after we are saved "add nothing" to maintain our salvation, absolutely nothing" and that is why Jesus will say to the plentiful on that day, "depart from me I never new you." and these workers for Christ did many many good works in His name and did not have a clue what was about to happen to them.
I will worship and serve the God I love here and now and for an eternity knowing that; "my Savior paid it all all to Him I owe", God bless!
Psalm 16:5-11
5) 'You, Lord, are all I have, and you give me all I need'; my future is in your hands. 6) How wonderful are your gifts to me; how good they are! 7) I praise the Lord, because he guides me, and in the night my conscience warns me. 8) I am always aware of the Lord's presence; he is near, and nothing can shake me. 9) And so I am thankful and glad, and I feel completely secure, 10) because you protect me from the power of death. I have served you faithfully, and you will not abandon me to the world of the dead. 11) You will show me the path that leads to life; your presence fills me with joy and brings me pleasure forever.
Then people like Fran come along with a counterfeit gospel saying "no no no", you cannot "just rely on Jesus"
you need to add works to God's grace so you can to keep or maintain your salvation. What Fran and others are blind to see, and will not even acknowledge, is the fact that God has prepared in advance the works for true believers to do "after we are save."Eph.2:9.
People of the same ilk as Fran do not have a clue that their salvation is a gift and that our works after we are saved "add nothing" to maintain our salvation, absolutely nothing" and that is why Jesus will say to the plentiful on that day, "depart from me I never new you." and these workers for Christ did many many good works in His name and did not have a clue what was about to happen to them.
I will worship and serve the God I love here and now and for an eternity knowing that; "my Savior paid it all all to Him I owe", God bless!
Psalm 16:5-11
5) 'You, Lord, are all I have, and you give me all I need'; my future is in your hands. 6) How wonderful are your gifts to me; how good they are! 7) I praise the Lord, because he guides me, and in the night my conscience warns me. 8) I am always aware of the Lord's presence; he is near, and nothing can shake me. 9) And so I am thankful and glad, and I feel completely secure, 10) because you protect me from the power of death. I have served you faithfully, and you will not abandon me to the world of the dead. 11) You will show me the path that leads to life; your presence fills me with joy and brings me pleasure forever.
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U
Yes I know who he was.
"Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words."
What is not clear in this passage, is whether he was speaking to being justified before men (like in James) or before God.
If he is stating that works justify us before God he was preaching a false Gospel and obviously was not paying attention to Paul when he taught, or worse yet he was deliberately teaching a false Gospel.
"Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words."
What is not clear in this passage, is whether he was speaking to being justified before men (like in James) or before God.
If he is stating that works justify us before God he was preaching a false Gospel and obviously was not paying attention to Paul when he taught, or worse yet he was deliberately teaching a false Gospel.
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It is so clear to those who know or understand......Paul is speaking before God and how our faith justifies us before God....James is speaking about the faith that justifies us before God being seen by men based upon what we do.....The same problem exists today in the Jewish people.....they believe in God, but do not possess the saving faith that justifies before God.....
Show me your faith James states......it is not difficult....yet religions conflate the two and peddled it as a form of slavery........
Show me your faith James states......it is not difficult....yet religions conflate the two and peddled it as a form of slavery........
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U
Yes James definitely did!!
Do you understand that the term "justified" has to be understood in context.
Paul speaks of actual justification before God and James speaks of demonstrative justification before men.......
...meaning the person who is justified by God should behave in such a manner that there faith is demonstrated outward before men so that they might see their faith in human actions and believe, this is being justified before men.
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the Law that gives freedom.
James 2:12
Berean Study Bible
Do you understand that the term "justified" has to be understood in context.
Paul speaks of actual justification before God and James speaks of demonstrative justification before men.......
...meaning the person who is justified by God should behave in such a manner that there faith is demonstrated outward before men so that they might see their faith in human actions and believe, this is being justified before men.
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the Law that gives freedom.
James 2:12
Berean Study Bible
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