Not By Works

[Endoscopy]

[QUOT3E="calibob, post: 3714250, member: 270740"]That's where a part of the problem lay. Many OSAS people would say people who would do as you have described weren't really saved at all aren't circumcised in the heart or the Holy Spirit wouldn't allow them to do as you say. Kneeling at a cross or an alter and just saying the sinners prayer doesn't save anyone. If it doesn't come from the heart it's dung.[/QUOTE]
Going back to the early church creeds were created to define what a Christian must believe. Everything outside the creeds was to agree to disagree. Too many Christians don't want to agree to disagree. There is 2 groups of Christians that disagree on 5 points that they adhere to. One point is OSAS. Calvinists adhere to OSAS but Armenians oppose it.

Here is a list of the ancient creeds with date and short explanation.

Roman Creeds 120 Part of the earliest attempts that resulted in the Apostles Creed. First attempt was only 1 sentence. It grew by stages into the Apostles Creed.

Apostles' Creed 120-250 Product of the Roman Christians around A.D.180.

Creed of Nicaea 325 Ecumenical Church Product of the first ecumenical council in Nicaea which tried to solve the Arian controversy.

Nicene Creed (Nicaea-Constantinopolitan Creed) 381 Ecumenical Church Expansion and revision of the 325 Creed of Nicaea (includes new section on Holy Spirit). It is the most widely accepted Christian creed.

Chalcedonian Creed 451 Council of Chalcedon Nearly all Christian denominations (except Oriental Orthodoxy, the Assyrian Church of the East, and much of Restorationism)

Athanasian Creed 500 Western Christian denominations Lat.: Quicumque vult The origin of this creed is uncertain, but it is widely used in various Christian denominations.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

I do see your point. So I will change my example. How many Christians do you know that said they were baptized of the Spirit and have been saved, and were on fire for a while in Jesus. But then something happened and they lost their love for Jesus and turned from him? How many Christians do you know that have done this?

The question is: were they never saved in the first place, or were they saved and then lost their salvation?

I have known some powerful Christian youth, who in their youth were on fire for Jesus, but now at the age of 60, are no longer Christians. We were baptized of the Holy Spirit and we were new persons for Jesus and we trusted in Jesus and we were saved by Jesus, but now many of those youth are no longer Christians, and so it makes me wonder, were they never saved in the beginning or have they lost their way, and lost their salvation. My best answer is that they lost their way and have lost their salvation. My bible study tells me this happened in the bible, the bible warns not to get lost, and how to repent and get back, and so I believe OSAS is not a true doctrine.

Somehow Christians stop being human? Because a man or a woman makes a profession of faith they are no longer subject to discouragement, or failure? A sad case is the young man that gets saved and calls himself into the ministry (note, I said 'called himself), or maybe his momma or his dad 'called' him into the ministry - but God didn't. He goes off to Bible college, graduates and does the work of a minister for a certain length of time, but he just doesn't have the aptitude for the ministry. He gets crushed by his inability and becomes discouraged and walks away from the ministry.

Now he is 60 and he never quite got over the pain of his ministerial shortcoming - maybe he doesn't even return to church.

Would you consign him to hell? Would God consign him to hell?

I think not.

 

[calibob]

Somehow Christians stop being human? Because a man or a woman makes a profession of faith they are no longer subject to discouragement, or failure? A sad case is the young man that gets saved and calls himself into the ministry (note, I said 'called himself), or maybe his momma or his dad 'called' him into the ministry - but God didn't. He goes off to Bible college, graduates and does the work of a minister for a certain length of time, but he just doesn't have the aptitude for the ministry. He gets crushed by his inability and becomes discouraged and walks away from the ministry.

Now he is 60 and he never quite got over the pain of his ministerial shortcoming - maybe he doesn't even return to church.

Would you consign him to hell? Would God consign him to hell?

I think not.

No!

 

[dcontroversal]

Daniel said in the middle of the week will be th abomination, jesus said it wil be followed by tribulation, so severe he will have to return or all flesh would die. Part of Gods wrath is removing his protective hand and allowing satan to run rampant..

Read Daniel 12 and pay attention to the statement.....from the time of the daily sacrifice being taken away and the abomination being set is..........verse 11.....also pat attention to verse 6-8......he tells us exactly how much time is left......!

1335 days is left of the 70th week, the first 1185 days have already been fulfilled in Christ!

 

[dcontroversal]

or did they realy have it? Peter couldn't lose salvation because he never had any before the crucifixion.

Ummmmmmm you might want to rethink the above........Immersion comes after salvation, Peter was saved, immersed and called out by Christ and states clearly that Jesus is Lord by the Spirit of God dwelling in him.....Peter was saved well before the cross!

 

[calibob]

Ummmmmmm you might want to rethink the above........Immersion comes after salvation, Peter was saved, immersed and called out by Christ and states clearly that Jesus is Lord by the Spirit of God dwelling in him.....Peter was saved well before the cross!

So rather than saved ty the blood, he was saved by grace through faith? Like Abraham? That's even better

 

[TruthTalk]

To me it is essential to salvation to be baptized of the Holy Spirit ( remember your experience as you were baptized of the Holy Spirit to know the details) and baptized of full immersion in water. Then once this is done, you work for the KOG until the end. If you start out on fire, and are saved, but then something happens and you fall away or turn away from Jesus, you will lose your salvation.

You are trying to "prove" that a "True Born Again Christians", can lose there Eternal Salvation, they cannot. And Eternally-grateful is correct you have no Faith and listen carefully, Dcon is correct you need to study the bible more. The fictitious people you describe as losing their salvation are fake/non-Christians.

And stop your fictitious stories they are fake and cannot be verified, no proof, no eye witnesses.

John10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Assurance of Salvation: Romans8:27-31
29) For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30) And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31) What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Read Daniel 12 and pay attention to the statement.....from the time of the daily sacrifice being taken away and the abomination being set is..........verse 11.....also pat attention to verse 6-8......he tells us exactly how much time is left......!

1335 days is left of the 70th week, the first 1185 days have already been fulfilled in Christ!

I have read and studied it for years, sorry, it does not prove your point and as far as the 1185 already fulfilled, dan 12 is a prophesy about the end, future, not past, sorry but not sure where you get your info

 

[Endoscopy]

To me it is essential to salvation to be baptized of the Holy Spirit ( remember your experience as you were baptized of the Holy Spirit to know the details) and baptized of full immersion in water. Then once this is done, you work for the KOG until the end. If you start out on fire, and are saved, but then something happens and you fall away or turn away from Jesus, you will lose your salvation.

OSAS comes from the statement of Jesus. I made bold the relevant OSAS verses in 3 different translations. Refute the concept of OSAS in light of this statement by Jesus.

John 10 KJV
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

John 10 NIV
24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

John 10 AMPC
24 So the Jews surrounded Him and began asking Him, How long are You going to keep us in doubt and suspense? If You are really the Christ (the Messiah), tell us so plainly and openly.
25 Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not trust Me and rely on Me]. The very works that I do by the power of My Father and in My Father’s name bear witness concerning Me [they are My credentials and evidence in support of Me].
26 But you do not believe and trust and rely on Me because you do not belong to My fold [you are no sheep of Mine].
27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
31 Again the Jews brought up stones to stone Him.
32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?

 

[Lafftur]

In case you were kidding, it's an ancient math device that uses sliding beads for calculations. That's all I know.

Yes, calibob - the sum of my post was purely fun!

 

[calibob]

Yes, calibob - the sum of my post was purely fun!

ok, that's why I said in case, just in case.

 

[Lafftur]

ok, that's why I said in case, just in case.

Okay, I finally solved the problem of finding love!

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/97390410671418168/

 

[dcontroversal]

I have read and studied it for years, sorry, it does not prove your point and as far as the 1185 already fulfilled, dan 12 is a prophesy about the end, future, not past, sorry but not sure where you get your info

Think about what you just said....serious...About the end<--exactly 1335 days and it is divided into 30 days, 1260 days and 45 days......

peace
tribulation
wrath

same here....32 years to be exact...not just years........hahahahha

 

[Magenta]

@calibob

Well I don't know
Why I came here tonight
I got the feeling that
Something ain't right

I'm so scared in case
I fall off my chair
And I'm wondering
How I'll get down the stairs

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am
Stuck in the middle with you
Yes I am stuck in
The middle with you

And I'm wondering
What it is
I should do
It's so hard to keep
This smile from my face
Losing control
Yeah I'm all
Over the place

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am
Stuck in the middle with you

Well you started out
With nothing
And you're proud that
You're a self made man
And your friends
They all come calling
Slap you on the back and say
Please
Please

Tried to make
Some sense at all
But I can see that
It makes no sense at all
Is it cool to go
To sleep on the floor?
You don't think
That I can take anymore

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am
Stuck in the middle with you

Stuck in the middle
Stuck in the middle

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
(Stuck in the middle)

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
(Stuck in the middle)

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
(Oh yeah)

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am
Stuck in the middle with you

Well you started out
With nothing
And you're proud that
You're a self made man
And your friends
They all come calling
Slap you on the back and say
Please
(I say)
Please

Well I don't know
Why I came here tonight
(Came here tonight)
I got the feeling that
Something ain't right
(Something thing
Don't feel right)
I'm so scared in case
I fall off my chair
(I am so scared)
And I'm wondering
How I'll get down the stairs

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am
Stuck in the middle with you

Stuck in the middle with you
(Oh yeah)
Stuck in the middle of you
(Here I am)
Stuck in the middle with you
(With you, with you)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Think about what you just said....serious...About the end<--exactly 1335 days and it is divided into 30 days, 1260 days and 45 days......

peace
tribulation
wrath

same here....32 years to be exact...not just years........hahahahha

Lol, think about what the word says, tribulation, greater than ever has seen or will ever be seenn

Wrath. It is all together, it will end with the return of Jesus, whoever endures to the end will be saved. Period. If they are raptured, there is NO ONE LEFT!

Fot that reason alone, you will never convince, me

 

[calibob]

@calibob

Well I don't know
Why I came here tonight
I got the feeling that
Something ain't right

I'm so scared in case
I fall off my chair
And I'm wondering
How I'll get down the stairs

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am
Stuck in the middle with you
Yes I am stuck in
The middle with you

And I'm wondering
What it is
I should do
It's so hard to keep
This smile from my face
Losing control
Yeah I'm all
Over the place

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am
Stuck in the middle with you

Well you started out
With nothing
And you're proud that
You're a self made man
And your friends
They all come calling
Slap you on the back and say
Please
Please

Tried to make
Some sense at all
But I can see that
It makes no sense at all
Is it cool to go
To sleep on the floor?
You don't think
That I can take anymore

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am
Stuck in the middle with you

Stuck in the middle
Stuck in the middle

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
(Stuck in the middle)

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
(Stuck in the middle)

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
(Oh yeah)

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am
Stuck in the middle with you

Well you started out
With nothing
And you're proud that
You're a self made man
And your friends
They all come calling
Slap you on the back and say
Please
(I say)
Please

Well I don't know
Why I came here tonight
(Came here tonight)
I got the feeling that
Something ain't right
(Something thing
Don't feel right)
I'm so scared in case
I fall off my chair
(I am so scared)
And I'm wondering
How I'll get down the stairs

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am
Stuck in the middle with you

Stuck in the middle with you
(Oh yeah)
Stuck in the middle of you
(Here I am)
Stuck in the middle with you
(With you, with you)

That guy in back reminds me of George Harrison

 

[dcontroversal]

Again for the sake of new readers the following must be rejected or denied to teach a salvation that can be lost like a dime in the park...

The gifts if God are irrevocable
The seal of God can be broken
We are saved to the uttermost
We are kept by the power of God
Eternal life does not mean eternal life
Everlasting life means temporary life
Born of incorruptable seed
Justified means guilty
LOSE NOTHING means tossed away
Will not forsake you means forsaken
Chastisment means loss if salvation
In the Father's hand means yanked out of
In the Son's hand means yanked out of
I will lose nothing means something is lost
I will nevet leave thee means we have been left

and on and on and on.......if the above are chunked aside and or do not mean what they mean NO ONE IS SAVED or will be saved.....

There is not a just man upon the esrth that does good and sins not!

 

[dcontroversal]

Lol, think about what the word says, tribulation, greater than ever has seen or will ever be seenn

Wrath. It is all together, it will end with the return of Jesus, whoever endures to the end will be saved. Period. If they are raptured, there is NO ONE LEFT!

Fot that reason alone, you will never convince, me

You obvioulsy don't read very well or miss half of what is written....go back about 30 or 40 posts.....your premise is not only wrong but contrary to scripture.....

 

[dcontroversal]

I never said anything like what you say above....and I have consistently stated that Israel (remnant) goes all the way through in the flesh, repopulates the waste cities of the planet (Zechariah, Isaiah) and there seems to be some remnant of the nations that treated Israel well for a time...for Example....Egypt takes a strike, lays dormant for 40 years and they return into the land and are subserviant to Israel during the 1000 reign....and not to mention the above view makes no sense at all....Christ brings the dead in Christ with him and those alive and remain are changed...so to say he has no one to rule over is ignorant....

This is why your premise is wrong......and instead of being so obstinate....be open to learning and instruction......!!
@eternally-gratefull

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You obvioulsy don't read very well or miss half of what is written....go back about 30 or 40 posts.....your premise is not only wrong but contrary to scripture.....

Now you have resorted to strawman.

That will not help convince me