Not By Works
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This is a great topic and I appreciate the dialogue.
I'm going to try to use quotes like you did. Hopefully this will make my comments easier to follow. I will simply comment on what your replies are this way we can get to the "meat" of the matter quickly.
I think it's important for me to comment already here. First off the Jesus says they searched the Scriptures because they thought in them they could have life. Please notice they were not searching the Scriptures for Him. But Jesus explains to us that HE is eternal life. The Scriptures point to Him. There is no eternal life apart from Him. Which takes us back to the original statement of the Father if you eat of the knowledge of good and evil you'll surely die.
Notice here that Jesus is saying BELIEVING Moses, what was it that they didn't believe? They didn't believe in Jesus. Moses wrote of Him. You're right in saying they didn't believe God, but where they didn't believe God isn't in their law, but in not believing Jesus. Did they reject His word? In a sense sure because they rejected Jesus who the Scriptures are about. But we must remember that the focal point here is not in their obedience to the law because that never saved. It was always faith. Even Paul says this to us here:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
No Jew ever got saved, but through Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Why did He make it obsolete? Because obedience to the first covenant wasn't enough. If it was there wouldn't have been room for a second one.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
I can keep posting Scriptures about this, Joshua pointed to a greater rest, Abraham looked forward to Christ, all the prophets longed to see what we see today. But the point I'm driving at here and I can keep on going is that its all pointing to Christ. The issue wasn't simply that they didn't follow the law properly because Paul said he was faultless before it. It was actually the INWARD sin that wasn't dealt with and that is what Christ deals with in us.
I pretty much agree with you until this point. Yes I do agree that they took God's law to another level. They did it out of fear. Because they didn't want to break any of the laws even in a small way. But let's discuss if the Pharisees were trying to obey God.
Matt 23:23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.24You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.Jesus here is saying look you're neglecting the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. It wasn't that they weren't keeping the letter of the law, but they were missing the spirit of the law.
He tells them look CLEAN the INSIDE not the outside. You're focusing on the outside which is outward observance, but inside you are full of greed and self-indulgence. They were focusing on a gnat, but swallowing a camel.
But let's see what God does in response:
Matt 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
God once again is focusing on relationship. They killed HIS PROPHETS. Those were the ones who SPEAK for Him. It's important we get this point. They wanted the law. They could follow it and puff themselves up, of course not inwardly which brings us to Romans 7. But they didn't want RELATIONSHIP.
Notice in Matt 23 Jesus discusses that they call those who stoned His prophets their fathers. Why does He do this? Because He's showing them that He's not their Father. Once again we are dealing with relationship. They were not willing to let Him gather them together.
Here's the law:
Leviticus 24:16 Whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.
This is exactly what they were quoting. He blasphemied the Lord by calling Himself like God. Except for the fact that He was God. They missed that point because their hearts were hardened to God. Once again they didn't want RELATIONSHIP with God so they turned to the law. This is how we fall from grace.
Exactly they resisted the Holy Ghost, this is the Spirit of God. They were uncircumcised in heart. They didn't want relationship so they killed the one's He sent. Yes they didn't keep it inwardly. And they probably didn't 100% keep it outwardly as well. But the point here is that they wouldn't turn to HIM.
You must remember the Law was to lead them to Him.
You can see that in v52 of the Scripture you quoted, "they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One".
Paul himself said he followed the laws blameless in the Scripture I quoted already. But also here's two more walking blameless before the Lord in regards to the law.
Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord.
Of course blameless doesn't mean perfectly, but it does mean covered by the sacrifices of the temple. We see this same state of being said about Noah and Job in the OT. Yet we know this wasn't the better covenant we know have. Because WE have access to Christ in our very being. And they had access to Him through a Levite Priest.
But let's tackle the deeper question here.
Was Paul talking about a "false law" or was he talking about the law written on stones?
In answer to that question I point to this Scripture here:
2 Co 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, having been engraved in letters on stones, was produced in glory, so as for the sons of Israel not to be able to look intently into the face of Moses, on account of the glory of his face which is fading, 8how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more in glory?
Paul states the law written on stones was the ministry of death. And he also foreshadows a different ministry that has a greater glory.
10For even that having been made glorious has not been glorified in this respect, on account of the glory surpassing it. 11For if that which is fading away was through glory, much more is that remaining in glory!
The old law is fading away...
12Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness, 13and not as Moses would put a veil over his face for the sons of Israel not to look intently into the end of that fading away.
He put a veil over his face because the glory on his face was fading away... and he wanted to hide it from the Israelites.
14But their minds were hardened; for until the present day, the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant, not being lifted, which is being removed in Christ. 15But unto this day, when Moses shall be read, a veil lies over their heart. 16But whenever one shall have turned to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
The only way that veil is removed is TURNING to Christ... Not turning to the law. The old law is fading away, but we have a greater glory in the ministry of the Spirit of Christ.
Please notice that I have shown you in several Scriptures that the point is turning TO Christ. The Pharisees searched through Scriptures to get eternal life, but they wouldn't turn to Christ. Even though the LAW and the Scriptures and the Prophets and the Sacrifices and the Tabernacle and the Priesthood ALL pointed to Him.
17Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all having been unveiled in face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Yes this Scripture actually means what it teaches. As we see Him we discover who we are becoming like. Another Scripture tells us the hope of glory is what purifies us. That we shall be like Him when we see Him.
But please notice it is by BEHOLDING Him that we are transformed it is not by beholding the law. Also notice that the Lord brings FREEDOM. This is a much longer topic, but basically we can't truly choose to love until we have true freedom.
[[Note unfortunately I had to remove the rest of what you wrote because of the post's maximum character limitations.]]
I believe I've adequately addressed your statements in this passage of text here. You asked for evidence that the Pharisees were trying to obey God. Well, I've shown you how Jesus said they were obeying the law, but they missed the most important parts. I've also shown you how Paul, Joseph, and Mary were considered blameless before the law. I could pull out more Scriptures that show other people who are blameless before the law, but that's not the main point. The law was never the Savior it shut people unto needing a Savior. Everything points to Christ.
Even Holy Spirit points us to Christ. He reveals what belongs to Christ. He declares what belongs to Christ. He reveals Christ. And HE is the ministry we are now under. I'll show you with an OT Scripture just so you know this was always God's plan:
Jeremiah 31:33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
This is the new covenant. His law is on our hearts. We love to follow Him. He is our God and we are His people.
And how then do we declare Christ if we don't follow the law written on stones?
Great question.
I leave you with this beautiful Scripture here:
2 Co 3:3 It is clear that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
God bless you.
I'm going to try to use quotes like you did. Hopefully this will make my comments easier to follow. I will simply comment on what your replies are this way we can get to the "meat" of the matter quickly.
I think it's important for me to comment already here. First off the Jesus says they searched the Scriptures because they thought in them they could have life. Please notice they were not searching the Scriptures for Him. But Jesus explains to us that HE is eternal life. The Scriptures point to Him. There is no eternal life apart from Him. Which takes us back to the original statement of the Father if you eat of the knowledge of good and evil you'll surely die.
Notice here that Jesus is saying BELIEVING Moses, what was it that they didn't believe? They didn't believe in Jesus. Moses wrote of Him. You're right in saying they didn't believe God, but where they didn't believe God isn't in their law, but in not believing Jesus. Did they reject His word? In a sense sure because they rejected Jesus who the Scriptures are about. But we must remember that the focal point here is not in their obedience to the law because that never saved. It was always faith. Even Paul says this to us here:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
No Jew ever got saved, but through Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Why did He make it obsolete? Because obedience to the first covenant wasn't enough. If it was there wouldn't have been room for a second one.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
I can keep posting Scriptures about this, Joshua pointed to a greater rest, Abraham looked forward to Christ, all the prophets longed to see what we see today. But the point I'm driving at here and I can keep on going is that its all pointing to Christ. The issue wasn't simply that they didn't follow the law properly because Paul said he was faultless before it. It was actually the INWARD sin that wasn't dealt with and that is what Christ deals with in us.
I pretty much agree with you until this point. Yes I do agree that they took God's law to another level. They did it out of fear. Because they didn't want to break any of the laws even in a small way. But let's discuss if the Pharisees were trying to obey God.
Matt 23:23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.24You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.Jesus here is saying look you're neglecting the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. It wasn't that they weren't keeping the letter of the law, but they were missing the spirit of the law.
He tells them look CLEAN the INSIDE not the outside. You're focusing on the outside which is outward observance, but inside you are full of greed and self-indulgence. They were focusing on a gnat, but swallowing a camel.
But let's see what God does in response:
Matt 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
God once again is focusing on relationship. They killed HIS PROPHETS. Those were the ones who SPEAK for Him. It's important we get this point. They wanted the law. They could follow it and puff themselves up, of course not inwardly which brings us to Romans 7. But they didn't want RELATIONSHIP.
Notice in Matt 23 Jesus discusses that they call those who stoned His prophets their fathers. Why does He do this? Because He's showing them that He's not their Father. Once again we are dealing with relationship. They were not willing to let Him gather them together.
Here's the law:
Leviticus 24:16 Whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.
This is exactly what they were quoting. He blasphemied the Lord by calling Himself like God. Except for the fact that He was God. They missed that point because their hearts were hardened to God. Once again they didn't want RELATIONSHIP with God so they turned to the law. This is how we fall from grace.
Exactly they resisted the Holy Ghost, this is the Spirit of God. They were uncircumcised in heart. They didn't want relationship so they killed the one's He sent. Yes they didn't keep it inwardly. And they probably didn't 100% keep it outwardly as well. But the point here is that they wouldn't turn to HIM.
You must remember the Law was to lead them to Him.
You can see that in v52 of the Scripture you quoted, "they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One".
Paul himself said he followed the laws blameless in the Scripture I quoted already. But also here's two more walking blameless before the Lord in regards to the law.
Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord.
Of course blameless doesn't mean perfectly, but it does mean covered by the sacrifices of the temple. We see this same state of being said about Noah and Job in the OT. Yet we know this wasn't the better covenant we know have. Because WE have access to Christ in our very being. And they had access to Him through a Levite Priest.
But let's tackle the deeper question here.
Was Paul talking about a "false law" or was he talking about the law written on stones?
In answer to that question I point to this Scripture here:
2 Co 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, having been engraved in letters on stones, was produced in glory, so as for the sons of Israel not to be able to look intently into the face of Moses, on account of the glory of his face which is fading, 8how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more in glory?
Paul states the law written on stones was the ministry of death. And he also foreshadows a different ministry that has a greater glory.
10For even that having been made glorious has not been glorified in this respect, on account of the glory surpassing it. 11For if that which is fading away was through glory, much more is that remaining in glory!
The old law is fading away...
12Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness, 13and not as Moses would put a veil over his face for the sons of Israel not to look intently into the end of that fading away.
He put a veil over his face because the glory on his face was fading away... and he wanted to hide it from the Israelites.
14But their minds were hardened; for until the present day, the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant, not being lifted, which is being removed in Christ. 15But unto this day, when Moses shall be read, a veil lies over their heart. 16But whenever one shall have turned to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
The only way that veil is removed is TURNING to Christ... Not turning to the law. The old law is fading away, but we have a greater glory in the ministry of the Spirit of Christ.
Please notice that I have shown you in several Scriptures that the point is turning TO Christ. The Pharisees searched through Scriptures to get eternal life, but they wouldn't turn to Christ. Even though the LAW and the Scriptures and the Prophets and the Sacrifices and the Tabernacle and the Priesthood ALL pointed to Him.
17Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all having been unveiled in face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Yes this Scripture actually means what it teaches. As we see Him we discover who we are becoming like. Another Scripture tells us the hope of glory is what purifies us. That we shall be like Him when we see Him.
But please notice it is by BEHOLDING Him that we are transformed it is not by beholding the law. Also notice that the Lord brings FREEDOM. This is a much longer topic, but basically we can't truly choose to love until we have true freedom.
[[Note unfortunately I had to remove the rest of what you wrote because of the post's maximum character limitations.]]
I believe I've adequately addressed your statements in this passage of text here. You asked for evidence that the Pharisees were trying to obey God. Well, I've shown you how Jesus said they were obeying the law, but they missed the most important parts. I've also shown you how Paul, Joseph, and Mary were considered blameless before the law. I could pull out more Scriptures that show other people who are blameless before the law, but that's not the main point. The law was never the Savior it shut people unto needing a Savior. Everything points to Christ.
Even Holy Spirit points us to Christ. He reveals what belongs to Christ. He declares what belongs to Christ. He reveals Christ. And HE is the ministry we are now under. I'll show you with an OT Scripture just so you know this was always God's plan:
Jeremiah 31:33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
This is the new covenant. His law is on our hearts. We love to follow Him. He is our God and we are His people.
And how then do we declare Christ if we don't follow the law written on stones?
Great question.
I leave you with this beautiful Scripture here:
2 Co 3:3 It is clear that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
God bless you.
2 Timothy 3:15-17 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
R
You don't need a stitch of works for justification. But you need works when Jesus comes back to be saved.
But right now you're probably saying, "but I done got saved the moment I believed! So how can I nots be saved when Jesus comes back?
What you people are forgetting is right in the 'P' part of your own Calvin beliefs is the teaching that the person who doesn't have works after he is justified DIDN'T REALLY GET JUSTIFIED TO BEGIN WITH. That makes works required to be saved when Jesus comes back. Fight it if you want, but you're only fighting your own beliefs.
Your perseverance shows if you really got justified and saved on the day that you said you did. No works when Jesus comes back means you didn't get justified, and so you did not get saved on that day, and you are not saved now, and you will not be saved when Jesus comes back. You are lawless, because you are faithless. He will reject you. And all your church attendance, Bible study, Bible teaching, tithing, witnessing, church programs, praise of his grace, none of your ministry service, not even your pastoring will do anything to change Jesus' mind on that day. You will be toast. You can argue with this all you want but this is right out of your own Calvin 'P' beliefs.
Justifying faith works. If your faith don't work, you have a fake faith, a faith that did not justify you. You just think it did. You will be burned up when Jesus comes back not saved.
But right now you're probably saying, "but I done got saved the moment I believed! So how can I nots be saved when Jesus comes back?
What you people are forgetting is right in the 'P' part of your own Calvin beliefs is the teaching that the person who doesn't have works after he is justified DIDN'T REALLY GET JUSTIFIED TO BEGIN WITH. That makes works required to be saved when Jesus comes back. Fight it if you want, but you're only fighting your own beliefs.
Your perseverance shows if you really got justified and saved on the day that you said you did. No works when Jesus comes back means you didn't get justified, and so you did not get saved on that day, and you are not saved now, and you will not be saved when Jesus comes back. You are lawless, because you are faithless. He will reject you. And all your church attendance, Bible study, Bible teaching, tithing, witnessing, church programs, praise of his grace, none of your ministry service, not even your pastoring will do anything to change Jesus' mind on that day. You will be toast. You can argue with this all you want but this is right out of your own Calvin 'P' beliefs.
Justifying faith works. If your faith don't work, you have a fake faith, a faith that did not justify you. You just think it did. You will be burned up when Jesus comes back not saved.
And you are a false teacher.. We don't deserve salvation, because we are all sinners who would die in our sins, were it not for God's grace. However, God loves us so much that He sent Jesus to die for our sins so that we may have eternal life. It is by grace, through our faith AND trust in God, that we are saved. 
It's rather simple really. If we DON'T have trust in God, then we have nothing. We certainly cannot save ourselves. God Himself says that if we don't have Him, then we are nothing and can do nothing.
Faith and trust in God are essential to getting saved. Faith without works is dead, but so are works that are done with the wrong intent in mind..
It's rather simple really. If we DON'T have trust in God, then we have nothing. We certainly cannot save ourselves. God Himself says that if we don't have Him, then we are nothing and can do nothing.
Faith and trust in God are essential to getting saved. Faith without works is dead, but so are works that are done with the wrong intent in mind..
So let me get this straight. God saves us because of His grace but the grace must be accepted in the proper way or the grace will not be granted. Correct?
And you don't see any works on our part in this formula?
It is a testimony that many, many are stuck on start. And cannot get past the simple plan of salvation. If we are stuck on salvation and do not have salvation DONE in our minds, we will NOT advance as believers. Maturity is an impossibility. The meat will never be eaten and metabolized.
Thank God there are a few here who are true evangelists. Because if the milk is never figured out, the meat will NEVER come.
Thank God there are a few here who are true evangelists. Because if the milk is never figured out, the meat will NEVER come.
Well, calling another's behavior wolf-like is purely subjective and nothing more than personal opinion. Truthfully it is over the top and ad nauseam at this point.
However, the staff of a shepherd was certainly not used to stroke the fur coat of a wolf as if a pet.
That being said, Paul had some things to say about wolves that others today shrink at and call unkind. It appears he had the Spirit of Christ in him when he did so, because the same demeanor was witnessed in our dear, and immutable, LORD.
My, how the men of God have fallen into a seemingly eternal milquetoast state. Any hint of indignation is pointed at as sinful behavior.
However, the staff of a shepherd was certainly not used to stroke the fur coat of a wolf as if a pet.
That being said, Paul had some things to say about wolves that others today shrink at and call unkind. It appears he had the Spirit of Christ in him when he did so, because the same demeanor was witnessed in our dear, and immutable, LORD.
My, how the men of God have fallen into a seemingly eternal milquetoast state. Any hint of indignation is pointed at as sinful behavior.
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Law and Grace
A Sermon by: Charles Spurgeon
A Sermon by: Charles Spurgeon
"Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound."— Romans 5:20.
On the other hand, many teach that the gospel is a law; that it has certain commands in it, by obedience to which, men are meritoriously saved; such men err from the truth, and understand it not. A certain class maintain that the law and the gospel are mixed, and that partly by observance of the law, and partly by God's grace, men are saved. These men understand not the truth, and are false teachers.
This morning I shall attempt—God helping me to show you what is the design of the law, and then what is the end of the gospel. The coming of the law is explained in regard to its objects: "Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound." Then comes the mission of the gospel: "But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound."
And now, lastly, poor sinner, has sin made thee unfit for heaven? Grace shall render thee a fit companion for seraphs and the just made perfect. Thou who art to-day lost and destroyed by sin, shalt one day find thyself with a crown upon thy head, and a golden harp in thine hand, exalted to the throne of the Most High. Think, O drunkard, if thou repentest, there is a crown laid up for thee in heaven. Ye guiltiest, most lost and depraved, are ye condemned in your conscience by the law?
Then I invite you, in my Master's name, to accept pardon through his blood. He suffered in your stead, he has atoned for your guilt and you are acquitted. Thou art an object of his eternal affection, the law is but a schoolmaster, to bring thee to Christ. Cast thyself on him. Fall into the arms of saving grace. No works are required, no fitness, no righteousness, no doings. Ye are complete in him who said, "It is finished."
"Grace outdoes sin, for it lifts us higher than the place from which we fell."
Attribute: click here for the full sermon; Law and Grace[/QUOTE]
It's frightening how Ralph- continues to make up what others believe, make things up that they've never said, erect straw man arguments and then beat on the straw man as if it were the real argument, and still see people arguing with him day in and day out. LOL!!!!!!!!!
Another remarkable thing is witnessing Ralph- talk about the importance of a changed life as being necessary for conversion, while he makes up things others haven't said and claims they have, bearing false witness, and doesn't even bat an eye when called on this behavior. Many in this thread have shown him as doing these things, calling him on it.
Why bother? These are the types that need to be ignored. Why allow them to absorb your time and energy?
Another remarkable thing is witnessing Ralph- talk about the importance of a changed life as being necessary for conversion, while he makes up things others haven't said and claims they have, bearing false witness, and doesn't even bat an eye when called on this behavior. Many in this thread have shown him as doing these things, calling him on it.
Why bother? These are the types that need to be ignored. Why allow them to absorb your time and energy?
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