Not By Works

[posthuman]

is there a contradiction in the Bible or not?

a man is justified by works and not by faith alone
(James 2:24)

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
(Romans 4:5)​

if there's not, which one of these is being misrepresented by stripping it from its context?

 

[posthuman]

When confronted with a simple but uncomfortable verse just hide behind context. James 2:24 is very straight forward and no amount of "context" will change its unmistakable message.

If you can claim "context" as the reason to not accept the verse's simple message then every verse is up for grabs.

then what's Romans 4:5 about?

the one who does not work but believes in God who justifies the ungodly is credited as righteous because of his faith. ​

is that uncomfortable? it's simple & straightforward. need no context?

 

[OtherWay210]

Revelation says the righteous acts created the fine linen you wear in heaven. Its also written, faith without works is dead.
Christ saves, but what is He saving , if people wont listen to His words ? ? ? God rewards those that work for Him .

[h=3]Matthew 25:40[/h]You might be concerned with Just getting there. But that wont discount the rewards those who have worked hard for Him will receive .

 

[Cee]

And you seem to have forgotten that 'living in' your old life means you were never saved to begin with. Let's review...

Calvinism-you have to persevere to the end or else you were never really saved.

Hypergrace-you don't have to persevere to the very end to be saved.


So which one you going with, people? You can't have it both ways. Either admit you are on board with hypergrace doctrine and be banned from this site for pushing that doctrine, or admit works being required for salvation doesn't have to be a works gospel of self-righteousness. Which one's it going to be, people?

I've noticed you've used this tactic before. Label what you don't agree with as "hyper-grace" and then point to the Mod's treatment of it to prove your position.

But, in my opinion, you're incorrect about why hyper-grace was banned as a topic not because of its theology, but because of the attitude and attacks people levied against each other. And at the end of day no one who was for it or against it agreed with the label itself. Its a derogatory label used to minimize people. I'm not a theology, I'm a person. And labels diminish the value of person when we use them to define people.

Even people who do believe grace is enough to transform us to be saved generally don't believe it should be called "hyper-grace" because its just simply grace. What I did notice is usually the people who liked to use the term "hyper-grace" were using it to label others as false or cultish. And then drastically misrepresenting people to prove their accusations against them.

 

[posthuman]

also

if dcons church was near me

i would love to be part of it

dude it's not so far, after all

But what does it say?
"The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart"
(Romans 10:8)



​

​

 

[mailmandan]

My bible states saved by works - "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" James 2:24

A man (who attends the church of Christ) that I was in a discussion with a while back made this statement -- "It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit" *(which is an oxymoron, because works of obedience cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law - Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40 and if works of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ were the means of our salvation, then they would be works of merit)*

That same man also interpreted James 2:24 as such *(as do all works-salvationists)* and he even wrote out James 2:24 and added the word "saved" to paraphrase -- "Do you see that by works a man is justified/saved; and not by faith only?"

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So after reading James 2:24 *in context and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture,* we can see that man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[NoNameMcgee]

is there a contradiction in the Bible or not?

a man is justified by works and not by faith alone
(James 2:24)

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
(Romans 4:5)​

if there's not, which one of these is being misrepresented by stripping it from its context?

________________
Galatians 3:6-9King James Version (KJV)
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
______________

Romans 4:2-4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

______________


james is being taken out of context pretty often

 

[posthuman]

I've noticed you've used this tactic before. Label what you don't agree with as "hyper-grace" and then point to the Mod's treatment of it to prove your position.

But, in my opinion, you're incorrect about why hyper-grace was banned as a topic not because of its theology, but because of the attitude and attacks people levied against each other. And at the end of day no one who was for it or against it agreed with the label itself. Its a derogatory label used to minimize people. I'm not a theology, I'm a person. And labels diminish the value of person when we use them to define people.

Even people who do believe grace is enough to transform us to be saved generally don't believe it should be called "hyper-grace" because its just simply grace. What I did notice is usually the people who liked to use the term "hyper-grace" were using it to label others as false or cultish. And then drastically misrepresenting people to prove their accusations against them.

yes, iirc it was because of the animosity with which this term was being thrown around that the mods moved to put a stop to it. i was going to say something just like this a few days ago, Cee, thanks

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As a self professing Bible teacher you should have a higher standard for yourself and a higher love for those you shepherd that should keep you from justifying the use of any kind of slang or profanity. That is really the point here. IF you use this language and think it is their issue or they need to get it over it, that is truly sad. In fact, it is being selfish.

When you state the issue is with other people and it is people who make words "bad" or think they are sinful and not the words themselves, it is nothing but rebellion in the heart. It is the inability or outright denial to let God have it and help you change it.

I ma not judging you I doing what I did with the OP. Since you both are self proclaimed teachers & leaders in your churches then you should have a higher standard for yourselves. If you need help, ask someone you trust. mediate on Scriptures that nothing wicked will come out of your mouth.

You will get like minded ear ticklers telling you it is OK you used the f-bomb in Sunday school class, because you could not make any point without using the word. Your lead Pastor may even relate to it, but the minute a child says it and repeats it and then is asked where he got it from and the child says Teacher EG said it and he is a teacher and leader, you have no defense.
The offense is not the word, the offense comes that a leader/teacher in the body of Christ, gives this a pass, like its not a big deal.

You will rue the day at Judgement when Jesus says enter in good and faithful servant. I have to ask you though, what made you think I was OK with you talking that way to my sheep? and God forbid, some of those sheep are lost because of your inability to use nice words to make a point while teaching.


James 3:1 says you have stricter judgment coming. Teacher

Romans 14:16-18
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; [SUP]17 [/SUP]for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

You have not read the Bible much have you? Paul pretty much considered everything other than Christ to be dung, 1 kings 18 has Gods prophet mocking the BAAL priests by asking if their Gods were taking a dump (relieving themselves) . Which is the same difference.

There are many places where we could water down the word, or call a spade for what it is. DC called someone out for his BS that he was spewing. You seem to be the only one saying he should not use a dirty word. Why? He called it for what it was. If you have a problem. Again, You have more issues than I can help you with.

 

[hardsell]

Philippians 3:8
8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ


skybalon/skubala (rubbish)

The Greek word translated as “rubbish” is skybalon, but that’s not the most accurate translation of the Greek. Skybalon is a dirty word in Greek, and our lovely wholesome translators have really dulled the translation down. What does it mean? The NET Bible translates it as “dung”, which is still not quite the full meaning. The NET Bible note on verse 8’s “dung” says:

The word here translated “dung” was often used in Greek as a vulgar term for fecal matter. As such it would most likely have had a certain shock value for the readers. This may well be Paul’s meaning here, especially since the context is about what the fleshproduces.


Skybalon was a vulgar term! It has been found in ancient graffiti and in manuscripts linking it as pure profanity! Paul purposefully uses a vulgar and offensive term in his letter in order to grab the attention of his readers and get into their faces. (thinkhebrew.wordpress.com)



​

It seems from the above they Paul used a word that was considered vulgar, basically s**t
Now if the above is true he has used a word that seems to be offensive.
I think for me to cuss or use what is considered a swear word is one that is used against a person.

So if the above word us s**t the Paul is saying "Everything I have lost is s**t and indeed it should be because the s**t I have lost had been replaced by Jesus"

In a nutshell "Everything not of Jesus is s**t.

We did have a preacher who used the S word in a evening sermon once. Brief pause then he said "having looked out I want to ask how many of you are offended that I used that word, how many of you are upset I used that word, don't raise hands but if you were does that upset you more than the people God has given you to proclaim the gospel to are going to hell?

I'm not an advocate of gratuitous profanity I must admit.

My mother uses the f word a lot.
I was off the mind set that if was a swear word and to be honest it upset me.
As I thought about it and prayed about it I realised the majority of the time it was "Well F me"
It was in fact to her an element of surprise, that's all.


Funnily enough since she became a Christian she hardly uses that word, I think mainly because she was aware I would not visit with my kids because of the ways words she would use. Not that the word to her was swear word but because she knew they may hear it and bigger blur it out in school or to a friend because they would find it offensive.

Hope the above makes some sense.

I believe context is king and the context of Phil 3:8 does not match the proposed defense. I appreciate your thoughts and it does make sense. Teachers and preachers have a greater accountability and the love in their heart should outgrow their flesh and its passions.

I watched a young minister once that using s**t , D**N, C**P, F me, A** H**E , SOB Mother Fer and a few other words in a service held at a hard core biker rally. The women and kids walked out first, then slowly the men did. The service ended before it started[figure of speech]. Now this minister was using the words in a jovial way and trying to be relevant and cool with the bikers and their families. Many that left simply said, its OK if I use that language and even around my old lady and kids, but it is not cool at all for preachers to and especially in front of my old lady and kids. We expect you guys to be different.

 

[posthuman]

james is being taken out of context pretty often

the context of James 2 is admonishing a group of people for showing partiality.
for treating a rich man better than a poor man.

that's the specifics 'break one part of the law and be guilty of all of it' ((in Leviticus 19 it says do not show partiality to the rich)) -- and when James says 'one of you will say, i have faith and you have works' -- guess who it is ((in the context)) that says that?
and guess who it is that would turn away a person starving and freezing to death ((the specific example of 'works' he uses)) with only words and no physical help?
would it be the person who thinks they need redemption or the person who doesn't?
who does Jesus talk about, neglecting the poor?
people who boasted of works, or people who boasted of faith?

who was rich in Jewish society?

we talking about a pharisee here? one who has become a believer?

if we are, would that pharisee believer be likely to feel justified by his works, or by his faith?

 

[stonesoffire]

You are proving why people like Ralph have an issue with you and other folks. They might be calling out they see living unchanged, despite saying your saved, which includes not controlling your mouth, and what comes out of it.

You give them ammo when you think using a little bit of profanity, is a laughable matter and not a big deal, and then further suggest it is perfectly legit when coming agaisnt false doctrine.



Yet The Bible says:

James 3:8-12

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. [SUP]9 [/SUP]With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; [SUP]10 [/SUP]from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? [SUP]12 [/SUP]Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.

Prov 10:11-
The mouth of the righteous is a fountain of life, But the mouth of the wicked conceals violence.

Prov 21:2

Every man’s way is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the hearts.

Eph 4:29-
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

For an OP that says on his blogs he is Pastor David E. Dixon and claims he is a teacher of the word and Seminary trained, no unwholesome thing should ever come out of his mouth.

WHY?

2 TIm 2:24-26
[SUP]24 [/SUP]The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, [SUP]25 [/SUP]with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, [SUP]26 [/SUP]and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

James 3:1-7
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Now if we put the bits into the horses’ mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires. [SUP]5 [/SUP]So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things.
See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! [SUP]6 [/SUP]And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race.

You are proving why people like Ralph have an issue with you and other folks. They might be calling out they see living unchanged, despite saying your saved, which includes not controlling your mouth, and what comes out of it.


Exactly the problem with Fran/Ralph. Seeing logs in eyes everywhere else but ones own self.

 

[Cee]

My bible states saved by works - "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" James 2:24

Your Bible is saying works justify a man not that they are saved by works.

Justified can be understood with the idea "just as if I've never sinned."

It's what happens through salvation which is AFTER substitution from Christ. We are saved by His work. And justified by the works that are a result.

Regarding your Scripture: "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" James 2:24"

James isn't saying that faith doesn't save. it teaches that faith leads to works.

The reason WHY faith leads to works is because faith is trusting God. And WORKS in Scripture is found in relationship with Him. We don't do it FOR relationship that's religion, we do it FROM relationship. That's why NO WORKS will ever save a man. Because works only come from those who are already saved. It is their works that reveal their salvation.

The issue here is the word, "works". What happens is people lump whatever they can into the definition works to control people. And then point to this Scripture to tell people to follow their religion.

Works becomes following the Law, getting circumsized, following the Sabbath, speaking in tongues, etc etc.

But where it will always fall short is in the idea that our works get us anything from God. We know the ONLY thing that pleases Him is FAITH which is believing HE is a Rewarder for those who SEEK HIM. And in the process of SEEKING HIM we ourselves are purified. This purification is outwardly seen as works or fruit of the Spirit.

Which is why Jesus said, Apart from Him we can do NO thing. If that's true and it is, then why would be able to do anything to get connected to Him? We can't do anything UNTIL we are connected to Him. And this connection is: salvation.

Its the process of dying to the old man and being reborn in Christ.

C.

 

[PennEd]

Repentance and belief are synonymous.

The Jew's knew their Messiah was coming, yet they rejected the Lord Jesus Christ as that Messiah. So the Jews needed to repent of their wrong thinking about the Lord Jesus Christ.

The gentiles didn't know about a coming Messiah( The Jew was to evangelize them and failed.)

It is why we see the difference of 'repent' for the Jew and 'believe' for the gentile. Both mean the same thing. It is Just that the Jew knew they needed a Savior and rejected Jesus Christ, so they needed to repent of that false belief. The Gentile needed to see that they needed a Savior and that Savior was The Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, not ALL the Jews were unsuccessful in evangelizing Gentiles.

SOMEONE told the Gentile Magi about the "Star" (Shekinah Glory?) the Messiah, AND they believed!!

Most likely handed down from Daniel. The very FIRST of those recorded to Worship Jesus were Gentiles! I like that.

 

[stonesoffire]

No ypiknow why you give people like Ralph the right to come after you.

Would you us the term BS or the actual word if you were teaching Sunday school for kids, teens or young adults? or anyone, how about new babes in Christ?

If you so NO, then why would you deem that acceptable for this thread? or board, If you say NO, are you now a hypocrite, or admit that hey if a swear, passive sanctification does not keep your from using profanity, renewing your mind to the word and being changed inside from out and the help of the Holy Spirit does.

got logs to burn?

 

[Magenta]

On hearing this, Jesus told them, "It is not the healthy who need a
doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

 

[NoNameMcgee]

the context of James 2 is admonishing a group of people for showing partiality.
for treating a rich man better than a poor man.

that's the specifics 'break one part of the law and be guilty of all of it' ((in Leviticus 19 it says do not show partiality to the rich)) -- and when James says 'one of you will say, i have faith and you have works' -- guess who it is ((in the context)) that says that?
and guess who it is that would turn away a person starving and freezing to death ((the specific example of 'works' he uses)) with only words and no physical help?
would it be the person who thinks they need redemption or the person who doesn't?
who does Jesus talk about, neglecting the poor?
people who boasted of works, or people who boasted of faith?

who was rich in Jewish society?

we talking about a pharisee here? one who has become a believer?

if we are, would that pharisee believer be likely to feel justified by his works, or by his faith?

you know what?

all them things other people and i were saying about you in the chatrooms may have been wrong..... you're actually pretty smart




(for the record im joking)

 

[BillG]

Thanks, and that is the point. It is peo-le who makes words “bad” or think they are sinful. Not the words themselves.

It is interesting.
I think most of you all who have walked with me know me. You know the virtual me


The physical people that have got to know me (those I let in because I trust them and there are not many, people I trust enough to love me where I am at but enough to correct me in love) a few have called me rough diamond.

Not sure what my virtual friends here think of me, but there are some on here and I truly trust and respect. I won't list you all in case I forget someone.

Anyways.

When my wife and I started courting/married I said the word 'Arse' to her swear word. I said 'just gonna fart' to her that's a swear word I said once 'going for a s**t to her it was a swear word.

The reason being is because such words were swear word accordng to her mother.

As her mother got to know me (at the start I wasn't good enough for her daughter, blue eyed girl in the church who led worship)
She realised such words were in fact not swear words.

In fact on Christmas day when a pungent smell arose she asked "Whose just farted?

Mind you I dying don't use the S word around her, don't like the taste of carbolic soap

 

[hardsell]

You are proving why people like Ralph have an issue with you and other folks. They might be calling out they see living unchanged, despite saying your saved, which includes not controlling your mouth, and what comes out of it.


Exactly the problem with Fran/Ralph. Seeing logs in eyes everywhere else but ones own self.

Yeah and you justify handing them the loaded gun, do not let your good be evil spoken of. The quickest way to defeat a Pharisee Zealot like Ralph is to adhere to Romans 14:16, especially if you have a leadership , teaching preaching or other ministry role.

Romans 14 says EG can swear all he wants if that is not sin to him. However, he says he teaches in his church and for that very reason, Romans 14 also instructs him to have enough self control and love in his heart that he can easily abstain from using swear words and profanity to the very people he teaches. This is where the Grace becomes accountable.

Christian character still matters with self professing Christian leaders and teachers and even those on a chat board.

 

[Magenta]

you know what?

all them things other people and i were saying about you in the
chatrooms may have been wrong..... you're actually pretty smart

)

Are you sure you are qualified to make such an assessment?

post will get the joke

Not that it is private or anything

And certainly no offense to you or post intended. I love you both ❤[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]