Not By Works

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
No, we need our feet cleaned because we do not stop sin. If you need a bath then you are living in sin and not just getting your feet dirty in sin. If you need a bath you will not be saved when Jesus comes back.
Yes I made a mistake, and am not to prideful to admit it.

whoever, Those who are bathed are completely clean.(which was the point I wanted to make)

If we have not been bathed, WE HAVE NEVER BEEN SAVED.

You do not BATH yourself by doing good deeds. CHRIST washes you through the HS (the washing of regeneration of the HS) Titus 3
 
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Ralph-

Guest
As she said, You have no idea what she is saying, or are confused (which YTou have been here long enough to make me doubt you are confused at all. You are just ignoring what you do not want to see. And seeing what you want to see. Whether it is their or not)
Okay, you tell us. Was she talking about being set free from a plaguing sin(s), or from a plaguing situation?

Apparently, she was not talking about being set free from sin because of how she responded to me thinking it was that. But I'm not surprised. Young people especially are being fed the gospel of success in personal ambitions and victory over the things that get in the way of that, not success in overcoming sin. The focus in that gospel is personal success, not being delivered from sin and the condemnation it brings.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
The only two people talking about non performance is yourself and Hizekya, and a few of your brothers in works.

No one else here is talking about non performance, we believe a true child of God will perform because true faith works.

But you can not see that, Because you have been learned to believe anyone who believes in eternal security loves sin and defends it. Which is a lie straight from the pits of hell.
You do not know what I believe about eternal security because I have not shared it and I'm not going to so that you and others stay on topic.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You do not know what I believe about eternal security because I have not shared it and I'm not going to so that you and others stay on topic.
smh, Eternal security is the subject. (Grace vs works)

And you do not know what we believe, because you keep saying we say and believe things WE DO NOT BELIEVE.

don;t judge others for things you yourself are doing.

 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I had to log in and post this;

James 2:14-26, “14 My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him. 15, "And if a brother or sister is naked and in need of daily food, 16, "but one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” but you do not give them the bodily needs, what use is it? 17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead. 18, "But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works. 19, "You believe that Yah is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! 20, "But do you wish to know, O empty man, that the belief without the works is dead? 21, "Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the slaughter-place? 22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected? 23, "And the Scripture was filled which says, “Aḇraham believed Yah, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And He called him, “he who loves Yah. 24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone. 25, "In the same way, was not Raḥaḇ the whore also declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.”


17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead.

24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone.

26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.”
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, some people misunderstand "faith without works is dead" to mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved/showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

*In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

*It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*
 
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Ralph-

Guest
smh, Eternal security is the subject. (Grace vs works)
No it's not. Unless you mean that a person can live in sin and still be saved because any and all behavior after believing in Christ can not change the fact that he got saved the moment he believed, but you are claiming you are not saying that.

Don't drag this discussion into the abyss of once saved always saved, if that's what you mean by eternal security. It doesn't matter if the professing believer who is living in sin was never saved to begin with, or lost his salvation. Either way the truth remains that he will not be saved when Jesus comes back. Whether or not he ever was saved is irrelevant. Paul, John, and James all say the person who is unchanged and still living in his old life is not born again and will not inherit the kingdom. That is the immovable truth that you are ignoring. It doesn't matter if he stopped being born again or never was to begin with. The Bible says he is NOT born again. That is what can not be refuted.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Interesting that Paul didn't say, BUT YOU STOPPED DOING ALL THOSE THINGS.

No, instead, he says, you were WASHED.
He also says such were some of you, showing it to be a past tense lifestyle of the converts at Corinth.

He also notes that those who do practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In other words those who practice these things are not truly converted; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. Practice of sin shows one to not be truly converted; note 1 John in context. Scripture is clear that the converted do not go on sinning. There is a sanctification process that goes on in the life of believers; Hebrews 12:14, Hebrews 10:14&c.

People want to allude to the sexually immoral man in chapter 5 as some sort of proof that the saved live this way. This is a terrible application of this text generally used to support living in a lifestyle of sin. Note that he is a "so-called" brother, there is nothing saying he is a true convert and the sense of the text is that he is merely referred to as brother. Since he is in their midst, and referred to as such, he is to be judged.

Being called brother and being in the midst of a church does not necessitate conversion; such is the case of the immoral man. Sanctification and evidence of conversion are the tests for true conversion.

Subsequently this man was then brought to repentance, and repentance is a necessary component of regeneration. Note 2 Peter 3:9 was thus fulfilled in this man, and he was brought to repentance and to Christ. Note also Luke 15:10, Matthew 1:21.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
No it's not.
yes it is, If it is of grace, then eternal security is real. If it is of works, then eternal security is a sham.

Unless you mean that a person can live in sin and still be saved because any and all behavior after believing in Christ can not change the fact that he got saved the moment he believed, but you are claiming you are not saying that.
Thanks, you just told us what you believed. Of course,. Everyone here already knew you did not believe in eternal security.

Again, John said a person who is born of GOD can NOT LIVE IN SIN, What part of NOT do you not get?



Don't drag this discussion into the abyss of once saved always saved, if that's what you mean by eternal security. It doesn't matter if the professing believer who is living in sin was never saved to begin with, or lost his salvation. Either way the truth remains that he will not be saved when Jesus comes back. Whether or not he ever was saved is irrelevant. Paul, John, and James all say the person who is unchanged and still living in his old life is not born again and will not inherit the kingdom. That is the immovable truth that you are ignoring. It doesn't matter if he stopped being born again or never was to begin with. The Bible says he is NOT born again. That is what can not be refuted.
Please stop right now. You making yourwe3lf look bad again,

You continue to prove you have no idea what we believe, and you keep putting yourself under the same strawman.

A child of God can not live in sin, thus he would never be saved while living in sin, Because he can’t live in sin.

1. He has a new nature. Sin is against his nature. So living in sin would be such an extreme poison, he would have to stop eating it
2. He has been born of God. The Lord chast4ens those who are his. Maybe you think a person can withstand Gods chastening. But those who have been chastened by him know we can not.
3. Finally, again, just so you can hear it three times and maybe it will sink in, A MAN OR WOMAN OF GOD CAN NOT LIVE IN SIN< BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD.

Any questions? Ask God, because he is the one your arguing wit. Not me. And not with his people. We are secure in him. And nothing you or any9one else can say or do will take that security away from us.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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People who 'live like this' will not inherit the kingdom of God. But you are saying people who do 'live like this' will inherit the kingdom of God. Who do we listen to, you, or Paul?

Do you 'live like this'? I don't. I sin, but I do not live in it. Do you? God's grace doesn't make it so you can 'live like this' and still enter the kingdom of God. "Do not be deceived"-vs.9.
So, what you are saying is a believer can sin. A believer can commit adultery. A believer can commit murder. A believer can commit witchcraft, etc...But a believer will not continue to commit those things habitually. Is this what you are saying?
 
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Ralph-

Guest
Subsequently this man was then brought to repentance, and repentance is a necessary component of regeneration.
This is the exact point me and dcontroversial disagree on. He says this guy is proof you do not have to have works with your faith to be saved when Jesus returns. He also cites the prodigal son, the thief on the cross, and the one who has no rewards but is saved as the other proofs that you do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus returns. But he's confusing because he also says true believers will have works. But that is how it goes here. You get beat up with either one of the two opposing arguments that the same person has been using depending on what you're presently arguing with them about.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
So, what you are saying is a believer can sin. A believer can commit adultery. A believer can commit murder. A believer can commit witchcraft, etc...But a believer will not continue to commit those things habitually. Is this what you are saying?
Yes. The one who believes will not do these things as a matter of life style. For a person to live in these things is to show they are rejecting the grace of God and as a result will not be saved when Jesus returns. You can't reject the grace of God and be saved at the same time. It doesn't matter if you ever had the grace of God or not. The point is, the person who 'lives like this' does not have it now as evidenced by them living in these things as a matter of lifestyle. That's why the guy at Corinth had to die in his flesh. He was demonstrating by his life that he was not covered by the grace of God because he was rejecting the grace of God.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
yes it is, If it is of grace, then eternal security is real. If it is of works, then eternal security is a sham.

Unless you mean that a person can live in sin and still be saved because any and all behavior after believing in Christ can not change the fact that he got saved the moment he believed, but you are claiming you are not saying that.
Thanks, you just told us what you believed. Of course,. Everyone here already knew you did not believe in eternal security.

Again, John said a person who is born of GOD can NOT LIVE IN SIN, What part of NOT do you not get?



Don't drag this discussion into the abyss of once saved always saved, if that's what you mean by eternal security. It doesn't matter if the professing believer who is living in sin was never saved to begin with, or lost his salvation. Either way the truth remains that he will not be saved when Jesus comes back. Whether or not he ever was saved is irrelevant. Paul, John, and James all say the person who is unchanged and still living in his old life is not born again and will not inherit the kingdom. That is the immovable truth that you are ignoring. It doesn't matter if he stopped being born again or never was to begin with. The Bible says he is NOT born again. That is what can not be refuted.
Please stop right now. You making yourwe3lf look bad again,

You continue to prove you have no idea what we believe, and you keep putting yourself under the same strawman.

A child of God can not live in sin, thus he would never be saved while living in sin, Because he can’t live in sin.

1. He has a new nature. Sin is against his nature. So living in sin would be such an extreme poison, he would have to stop eating it
2. He has been born of God. The Lord chast4ens those who are his. Maybe you think a person can withstand Gods chastening. But those who have been chastened by him know we can not.
3. Finally, again, just so you can hear it three times and maybe it will sink in, A MAN OR WOMAN OF GOD CAN NOT LIVE IN SIN< BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD.

Any questions? Ask God, because he is the one your arguing wit. Not me. And not with his people. We are secure in him. And nothing you or any9one else can say or do will take that security away from us.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes. The one who believes will not do these things as a matter of life style. For a person to live in these things is to show they are rejecting the grace of God and as a result will not be saved when Jesus returns. You can't reject the grace of God and be saved at the same time. It doesn't matter if you ever had the grace of God or not. The point is, the person who 'lives like this' does not have it now as evidenced by them living in these things as a matter of lifestyle. That's why the guy at Corinth had to die in his flesh. He was demonstrating by his life that he was not covered by the grace of God because he was rejecting the grace of God.
Again, a person who is saved CAN NOT DO THESE THINGS.

the only persons or people questioning IF they can are you and your brothers.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Yes. The one who believes will not do these things as a matter of life style. For a person to live in these things is to show they are rejecting the grace of God and as a result will not be saved when Jesus returns. You can't reject the grace of God and be saved at the same time. It doesn't matter if you ever had the grace of God or not. The point is, the person who 'lives like this' does not have it now as evidenced by them living in these things as a matter of lifestyle. That's why the guy at Corinth had to die in his flesh. He was demonstrating by his life that he was not covered by the grace of God because he was rejecting the grace of God.
Can you define "lifestyle"? What you have said it's not a one time thing because believers can commit murder once and that's ok. How many times can a believer commit murder and it become a "lifestyle"? Twice? Three? Four? Weekly? Monthly?
 
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Ralph-

Guest
Thanks, you just told us what you believed. Of course,. Everyone here already knew you did not believe in eternal security.

I believe in eternal security. You do not know if I mean that the way you mean that or some other way because I have not said.


Again, John said a person who is born of GOD can NOT LIVE IN SIN, What part of NOT do you not get?
I get all of it. It is you people who think how you live has nothing to do with your salvation that doesn't get it.


A child of God can not live in sin, thus he would never be saved while living in sin, Because he can’t live in sin.

1. He has a new nature. Sin is against his nature. So living in sin would be such an extreme poison, he would have to stop eating it
2. He has been born of God. The Lord chast4ens those who are his. Maybe you think a person can withstand Gods chastening. But those who have been chastened by him know we can not.
3. Finally, again, just so you can hear it three times and maybe it will sink in, A MAN OR WOMAN OF GOD CAN NOT LIVE IN SIN< BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD.

Any questions? Ask God, because he is the one your arguing wit. Not me. And not with his people. We are secure in him. And nothing you or any9one else can say or do will take that security away from us.

Don't tell me. Tell your buddy dcontroversial whose posts you keep liking and agreeing with. I'm the one saying you can not live in sin and be saved when Jesus comes back. That has nothing to do with eternal security. It has everything to do with whether or not you have the grace of God in salvation in your life when he returns.

I posted the exchange between me and him where he used the prodigal son, the thief on the cross, the saved man with no rewards, and the fornicating Corinthian to prove you do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back because salvation is by faith alone. Which I'm pointing out is a horrible misunderstanding of what it means for salvation to be by faith apart from works. For some reason, you agree with me about those examples but you haven't said a word to him about his erroneous understanding but instead continue to bash me and look for reasons to continue to bash me.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Again, a person who is saved CAN NOT DO THESE THINGS.

the only persons or people questioning IF they can are you and your brothers.
An interesting discussion: EG, I don't know if I have heard you say this before in this way: that a believer cannot do these things (sin)

I assume you are saying that a believer will not live a lifestyle of sin (ongoingly sin - the Greek present tense).

How would you respond to John146's question:

"What you have said it's not a one time thing because believers can commit murder once and that's ok. How many times can a believer commit murder and it become a "lifestyle"? Twice? Three? Four? Weekly? Monthly"
 
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Ralph-

Guest
Again, a person who is saved CAN NOT DO THESE THINGS.
That's my point! You're not getting it. Put your eternal security stuff aside and think! Eternal security doesn't change the fact that the person who is doing those things does not have the grace of God in salvation. It doesn't matter if he had it and lost it, or if he never had it. The point is he does not have it now and will not be saved when Jesus comes back. Get it?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
An interesting discussion: EG, I don't know if I have heard you say this before in this way: that a believer cannot do these things (sin)
I said a believer can not LIVE IN SIN (live like he did before he was saved) not that they can not sin. And actually it was not me who said it, I am just repeating what the ASpoastle John said.
I assume you are saying that a believer will not live a lifestyle of sin (ongoingly sin - the Greek present tense).

How would you respond to John146's question:

"What you have said it's not a one time thing because believers can commit murder once and that's ok. How many times can a believer commit murder and it become a "lifestyle"? Twice? Three? Four? Weekly? Monthly"
He asked you, can you answer?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Again, a person who is saved CAN NOT DO THESE THINGS.

the only persons or people questioning IF they can are you and your brothers.
I have to agree with EG here. I believe that a person who is "in Christ" can not blatantly disregard God's "Good" "Just" and "Holy" Commandments He writes on our hearts.

Someone who is "in Christ" is directed by His Spirit. The Spirit of the Jesus of the Bible would never promote the blatant rejection or disobedience of God's Commandments, especially those who Jesus said were created for them, and especially the First and Greatest Commandment.

A true believer would emulate the "works" of Christ. Compassion, mercy, loyalty to God, Faithfulness, humility, obedience, etc..

No person who has the Spirit of Christ in their mind would purposely break a commandment of God. In ignorance maybe, but as soon as the sin is exposed, they would "Go and do that sin no more".

That is how we know who is of God and who is of the World, by their "works".
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
[/B][/COLOR]I believe in eternal security. You do not know if I mean that the way you mean that or some other way because I have not said.
lol. Yeah, we know. Been here done this, You think we forget.


I get all of it. It is you people who think how you live has nothing to do with your salvation that doesn't get it.
Well since NO ONE HER BELIEVES THIS, I do not know who you are talking to. You definitely are not talking to myself. Or DC, or the other people here you are trying to argue with, they do not believe this either.

Just because you say we do. Does not make it fact.




Don't tell me. Tell your buddy dcontroversial whose posts you keep liking and agreeing with. I'm the one saying you can not live in sin and be saved when Jesus comes back. That has nothing to do with eternal security. It has everything to do with whether or not you have the grace of God in salvation in your life when he returns.

I posted the exchange between me and him where he used the prodigal son, the thief on the cross, the saved man with no rewards, and the fornicating Corinthian to prove you do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back because salvation is by faith alone. Which I'm pointing out is a horrible misunderstanding of what it means for salvation to be by faith apart from works. For some reason, you agree with me about those examples but you haven't said a word to him about his erroneous understanding but instead continue to bash me and look for reasons to continue to bash me.
Lol. What should I tell him? That you continue to slander him by continuing to say things he never said?

You keep adding the words when jesus comes back, Most people will be dead by then, so they will not be living any way. All your doing is trying to add words to again support your works based theology. Your not fooling anyone.

Jesus will do what he promised to do when he comes back, for those who are alive, he will go get ALL HIS SHEEP. Even the ones who strayed away, why? Because he promised to. And HIS SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE. And THEY FOLLOW HIM.

either you believe Jesus promise, or you do not.’