Not By Works
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An unknown New Testament writer describes the purpose of the Torah. “[The Torah] is given by inspiration of G-d, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of G-d may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” –Thessalonians. In this passage the Torah is not provided for Salvation.
As for the Gospels, “Yeshua [is come to] save his people from their sins.” –Matthew. And, “[Yeshua] is able to save completely (or, to the uttermost) those who come to G-d through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them.” --Hebrews
Christians who read Paul’s epistles often conclude that he opposes the Torah. This is not the case. He was protecting it. He was following rabbinic instruction. He diligently showed early Gentile believers that there is a difference between the Torah and gospel teaching. His primary issue is that the non-converted Gentile believers do not use the Torah as a means of Salvation.
With that in mind, consider the epistles of rabbi Paul. He lived during a time where there was considerable fear as to whether Israel could remain a nation. Greek philosophy had already begun to influence many leading Jewish teachers. Roman oppression had placed over Israel their own puppet government, and Israel was in the middle of the trade routes to Europe, Africa and Asia. New religious teaching, philosophy, and culture showed up daily. The pressure to give into external influence and pervert the Torah was at its peak. Therefore, the need to protect the purity of the Torah and Oral law was at an all-time high. This was the world rabbi Paul grew up in. It is also the reason why Paul place so much emphasis that non-converted Gentiles are NOT to observe the Torah. The Torah would be perverted and integrated into their previous pagan culture – as was happening at the time. It is important that Christians understand this.
All of this is to try and show anyone reading this that I understand who I worship and teach others to worship. When Christian believers celebrate in a Holy,(set apart) day in the name of Messiah and the name of foreign gods together they are bringing a curse on themselves to an extent just as disobedience led to the distruction then so it will again today especially as the great and terrible day of YHWH Elohim.
So what does Israel say?
Until just recently Jewish authority generally banned the teaching of the Torah and Talmud to non-Jews. The primary concern was that gentiles would pervert the wisdom of the Torah. They would either form a new religion, or integrate Jewish wisdom into their religions. We see this today in many messianic groups like Sacred Name and Hebrew Roots.
The following from the Jerusalem Post,
“The Torah states, ‘Moses has commanded us the Torah, an inheritance for the community of Jacob (Deuteronomy 33:4). Deeming this inheritance, the exclusive property of Jews, the sages prohibited gentiles from learning Torah and Jews from teaching it to them…
In this spirit, Rabbi David Tzvi Hoffman argued that one may teach non-Jews the narrative portions of the Torah which will inspire belief in the grandeur of G-d. Beyond that, rabbis Naftali Berlin and Tzvi Hirsch Chajes contended that the prohibition only applies to aspects of the Oral Law but not to the written Scriptures…
Rabbi Yehiel Weinberg, who himself taught at a pre-World War II German university. He contended that the proscription only banned gentile study intended to form competing religious ideals and rituals. It remained perfectly permissible, however, to teach even an exclusively non- Jewish audience if the goal was simply to spread Jewish wisdom.” -- Jpost.com - The Jerusalem Post newspaper's online edition
With this said. Where does it say "good works" is the law of spirit and life and freedom?
EVERYWHERE
In love of Messiah Yeshua John Talmidim
Special thanks to Ron
As for the Gospels, “Yeshua [is come to] save his people from their sins.” –Matthew. And, “[Yeshua] is able to save completely (or, to the uttermost) those who come to G-d through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them.” --Hebrews
Christians who read Paul’s epistles often conclude that he opposes the Torah. This is not the case. He was protecting it. He was following rabbinic instruction. He diligently showed early Gentile believers that there is a difference between the Torah and gospel teaching. His primary issue is that the non-converted Gentile believers do not use the Torah as a means of Salvation.
With that in mind, consider the epistles of rabbi Paul. He lived during a time where there was considerable fear as to whether Israel could remain a nation. Greek philosophy had already begun to influence many leading Jewish teachers. Roman oppression had placed over Israel their own puppet government, and Israel was in the middle of the trade routes to Europe, Africa and Asia. New religious teaching, philosophy, and culture showed up daily. The pressure to give into external influence and pervert the Torah was at its peak. Therefore, the need to protect the purity of the Torah and Oral law was at an all-time high. This was the world rabbi Paul grew up in. It is also the reason why Paul place so much emphasis that non-converted Gentiles are NOT to observe the Torah. The Torah would be perverted and integrated into their previous pagan culture – as was happening at the time. It is important that Christians understand this.
All of this is to try and show anyone reading this that I understand who I worship and teach others to worship. When Christian believers celebrate in a Holy,(set apart) day in the name of Messiah and the name of foreign gods together they are bringing a curse on themselves to an extent just as disobedience led to the distruction then so it will again today especially as the great and terrible day of YHWH Elohim.
So what does Israel say?
Until just recently Jewish authority generally banned the teaching of the Torah and Talmud to non-Jews. The primary concern was that gentiles would pervert the wisdom of the Torah. They would either form a new religion, or integrate Jewish wisdom into their religions. We see this today in many messianic groups like Sacred Name and Hebrew Roots.
The following from the Jerusalem Post,
“The Torah states, ‘Moses has commanded us the Torah, an inheritance for the community of Jacob (Deuteronomy 33:4). Deeming this inheritance, the exclusive property of Jews, the sages prohibited gentiles from learning Torah and Jews from teaching it to them…
In this spirit, Rabbi David Tzvi Hoffman argued that one may teach non-Jews the narrative portions of the Torah which will inspire belief in the grandeur of G-d. Beyond that, rabbis Naftali Berlin and Tzvi Hirsch Chajes contended that the prohibition only applies to aspects of the Oral Law but not to the written Scriptures…
Rabbi Yehiel Weinberg, who himself taught at a pre-World War II German university. He contended that the proscription only banned gentile study intended to form competing religious ideals and rituals. It remained perfectly permissible, however, to teach even an exclusively non- Jewish audience if the goal was simply to spread Jewish wisdom.” -- Jpost.com - The Jerusalem Post newspaper's online edition
With this said. Where does it say "good works" is the law of spirit and life and freedom?
EVERYWHERE
In love of Messiah Yeshua John Talmidim
Special thanks to Ron
What? The very first part of this response was Thessalonians and I was just showing that the concept of salvation is from Messiah as we know it. Christianity and religion that takes from another is Not the Elohim of Scripture. I spent hrs by the way looking into this for you. And you don't take the time to even reflect on the meat of my response. You took all of what 5 min. To scan through. To be clear!
If you know John's written word you should identify as a Jew if you do follow the true Messiah for one. Second I am not Jewish nor can I identify as Christian because my Lord has a Temple made without human hands. I thought you might be interested enough to try at least to hear. Instead you"pray" for me if I'm Jewish. Judged Much? Love you but that's rude.
If you know John's written word you should identify as a Jew if you do follow the true Messiah for one. Second I am not Jewish nor can I identify as Christian because my Lord has a Temple made without human hands. I thought you might be interested enough to try at least to hear. Instead you"pray" for me if I'm Jewish. Judged Much? Love you but that's rude.
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Okay, I'll let that go instead of proving otherwise.
And I never said faith was a work. I said in order for believing to be faith or for faith to be faith, it requires a corresponding work, otherwise it's dead, according to James.
Would you agree that anything we do physically would be considered a work?
Would you say verbally speaking or confessing is a work?
1Jn1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we havefellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Soncleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth isnot in us.
1Jn1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Walking in the light still requires you to do physical acts, and according to the above verses, the blood of Jesus will cleanse you of all sin.
But it doesn't stop there. If we verbally CONFESS our sins, God is faithful and just to FORGIVE US OF OUR SINS, AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.
So we are not forgiven UNTIL we actually verbally confess our sins, which is a work.
That should be proof enough that a work in faith is required for one's forgiveness.
But I have more if you would like me to continue.
Let's take a look at how to get saved, which requires one's sins to be forgiven.
Rom10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That theman which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Saynot in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bringChrist down fromabove
Rom10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christagain from the dead.)
Rom10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, evenin thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which wepreach;
Rom10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shaltbelieve in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thoushalt be saved.
Rom10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with themouth confession is made unto salvation.
Take note, that salvation is NOT made UNTIL one CONFESSES WITH THEIR MOUTH, the Lord Jesus.
Faith require one to believe in their heart first, and then they MUST CONFESS WITH THEIR MOUTH BEFORE they can be saved. That is what is written without taking it out of context.
We believe unto righteousness and when we confess what we believe, then it is done.
Faith always requires and act that corresponds to what you believe in your heart.
If you believe and don't act on that believe, nothing will happen. Which means, no salvation.
If you don't believe but still act it out, again, nothing will happen. which means, still no salvation.
2Co4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, Ibelieved, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and thereforespeak;
I have given you two sets of scripture verses that proves a work must be done for one's sins to be forgiven. The testimony of two or more witnesses makes what I said earlier, true.
I named more than one work or act one can do that does indeed cause their sins to be forgiven.
Confessing is not a work let's get serious here.. I can not boast of self because I confessed Jesus.. That's boasting I Jesus..
As for physical acts which ne can do and boast of. They can not save us.. of course y have not shownone physical act which will remove the pentaly of one sin, So by your silence you must agree
Sooooooooooooooooooo
How about this scripture...
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. [SUP]8 [/SUP]To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, [SUP]9 [/SUP]to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [SUP]10 [/SUP]to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[SUP][a][/SUP] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
Ive bolded out the most important part.... Now why would the spirit give the gift of faith to one and not the other..
Now is it because one gift leads to another or is it the full measure of faith
How about this scripture...
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. [SUP]8 [/SUP]To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, [SUP]9 [/SUP]to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [SUP]10 [/SUP]to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[SUP][a][/SUP] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
Ive bolded out the most important part.... Now why would the spirit give the gift of faith to one and not the other..
Now is it because one gift leads to another or is it the full measure of faith
It's not a lie. I'm sorry if you don't want to accept the truth. Which is, that the daily bread we ask for each day, is stuff like the strength to get through the day, for God to provide what we need. NOT to ask for daily salvation. Salvation is NOT given daily, it is a one-time gift. A ONE time gift.
Sooooooooooooooooooo
How about this scripture...
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. [SUP]8 [/SUP]To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, [SUP]9 [/SUP]to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [SUP]10 [/SUP]to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[SUP][a][/SUP] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
Ive bolded out the most important part.... Now why would the spirit give the gift of faith to one and not the other..
Now is it because one gift leads to another or is it the full measure of faith
How about this scripture...
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. [SUP]8 [/SUP]To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, [SUP]9 [/SUP]to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [SUP]10 [/SUP]to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[SUP][a][/SUP] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
Ive bolded out the most important part.... Now why would the spirit give the gift of faith to one and not the other..
Now is it because one gift leads to another or is it the full measure of faith