Not By Works

[Cee]

I would hope those who are so passionate about preaching against works based salvation are actually doing works themselves for the Lord.

Exactly. Works FOR the Lord. Not works for OURSELVES to be saved or stay saved.

By accepting we ARE saved, it no longer becomes about us.

And now we can freely love. Because WE are freely loved.

 

[stonesoffire]

I wonder about those who claim sinless perfectionism. Just like I wonder about any who claim they are no longer in need of God's grace, or that they are worthy of what God freely gives them, or that the righteousness found through putting on Christ is their own.

I don't think you are seeing what we are saying Magenta. It's because of being One with Jesus...and moving in Him...in works of Holy Spirit...that there would be a declaration of being worthy. Not worthy because of self in any way, nor righteous by self in any way...but moving by direction from the Head.

I've only had a few experiences of being in the Spirit this way. There are many who have the greater works.

Nothing to boast of...is all of His power.

 

[stonesoffire]

What exactly is sinless perfectionism?

Perfect is maturity. 1john says fathers. Paul said he was a father. I've heard mothers in Israel pertaining to women.

 

[preacher4truth]

What exactly is sinless perfectionism?

Perfect is maturity. 1john says fathers. Paul said he was a father. I've heard mothers in Israel pertaining to women.

It means some believe they do not sin. Some of their sins they classify as "mistakes" lolzzzzzzzzzzzz...

You'll never convince any of them.

Anyhow, the apostle John was quite clear about those who believe they have no sin...

(This teaching is found among some Methodists and Nazarenes)

 

[dcontroversal]

Why is it that you, while claiming that others love sin, and want to sin, continually lie about others with said unsubstantiated claims?

I know and agree........how does that help one who pushes a working for, sinless perfectionist dogma for salvation?

 

[Magenta]

I don't think you are seeing what we are saying Magenta. It's because of being One with Jesus...and moving in Him...in works of Holy Spirit...that there would be a declaration of being worthy. Not worthy because of self in any way, nor righteous by self in any way...but moving by direction from the Head.

I've only had a few experiences of being in the Spirit this way. There are many who have the greater works.

Nothing to boast of...is all of His power.

You seem to misunderstand, for I don't think of you as one who pushes what I just mentioned. The ones who do boast of themselves. Do you think yourself no longer in need of God's grace? I have never seen you say it. Do you believe you are worthy of the free gift of salvation? I have never seen you say it. No, SoF, I was not including you at all.

 

[dcontroversal]

then show some. reference some. you, peterjens, and a couple more say this very often, yet do not show any proof. if they are so many on " our side " ( we are not a side, we just do not have agendas ), saying that sin is no big deal, behavior does not matter, righteous living is not important, then point them out directly. if not, perhaps you should stop bearing false witness??

I dealt with a young man yesterday here in Australia...he believes you can lose salvation and PARROTED WORD FOR WORD the same lie the workers for propagate about sin and those who believe in eternal security.....and I mean word for word......he is a SATURDAY worship religion.....like their manual has a go to phrase to fall back on as the supreme answer to all who believe in eternal security......makes me want to spew because we do not say that or imply that whatsoever at all.....and the funny thing....it is a lie and yet they push a works based, sinless perfectionist salvation that can be lost....not realizing that by their own dogma the have lost salvation by repititious lies....if it were possible to lose I might add!

 

[dcontroversal]

Stephen just described himself.

Kinda what I was thinking.......oh well.......!

 

[dcontroversal]

The word "justified" means to be declared righteous. Righteousness only comes by a "gift". This giving of the gift of righteousness which is Christ's alone is what brings salvation as in going to be with the Lord when we leave this body of flesh.

The finished work of Christ is that all sin has been taken away by Him and that all those that believe when they hear the message of Christ - are sealed with the Holy Spirit and they become new creations in Him and they are declared righteous because of Christ's work alone - not by what we do or don't do.

The finished work of Christ means that He alone has obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12 - secured by His blood.

The righteous shall live by faith.

The proper understanding of His righteousness will also in this live bring the grace needed to walk out what already is in side us in the new creation in Christ.

Not being able to discern the "word of righteousness" will leave spiritual babies in our understanding.

Looks like it is time for "scripture" again in the area of righteousness. Why do people fight so much against the work of Christ and instead live by their own humanistic religious thoughts? Why don't we believe in Christ? Why are we continually denying Him and what He has done?

I can give what the scriptures say about righteousness and believers that are "in Christ" now. Everyone can believe what they want too.

The understanding of the new creation in Christ and the new identity of the believer is paramount to living the true Christian life.


Here it says our spirit ( the inner person that is a new creation in Christ ) is alive because of righteousness that it is it.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Here righteousness is a gift - you don't earn it.

Romans 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

We have grace reigning in our lives because of righteousness in us.

Romans 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21[/SUP] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here righteousness comes by faith.

Romans 9:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Here when we believe - we are righteousness.

Romans 10:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are in the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] For the kingdom of God ( Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you..He might know a thing or two ) is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Here it says that God made us righteousness in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This says we have become the righteousness of Christ ( this is called a dependent clause in the greek - it is determined as fulfilled because Christ became sin )

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Believers are called righteousness.

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Here it is saying that "righteousness comes by Christ".

Galatians 2:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Here we have the breastplate of righteousness - which is the armor of God that we are to be strong in.

Ephesians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, andhaving on the breastplate of righteousness;

This talks about the new man in Christ - the new creation which has been created in righteousness and holiness.

Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Ok..that's enough..there are tons more....

righteousness comes by doing what is right through faith...Just as Daniel, Job, and Noah were delivered by their own righteousness (bible 101)

Positional righteousness is imputed without works....Ask David...he was inspired, so was Paul who testified to this...you on the other hand...not so much!

 

[Magenta]

What exactly is sinless perfectionism?

There are those who claim to be sinless and perfected, but if pressed, they are forced to admit they actually do still sin, but it is a way for them to vaunt themselves above others, while they lie about who they are. Further, they will also say that if we do still sin, then we are not saved.

Essentially, they deny 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10~

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

 

[dcontroversal]

Three bibles full and still no consensus.

The truth is already contained in this thread. But it is so long and silly now that any further posting makes everything gone before obsolete. Nobody will be reading page 972, and page 1246.

Stale and silly. And everyone contributing to this silliness cannot anymore see the wood for the trees.

Exactly who here is being edified? Nobody anymore.

It has become about pride. 100% about who is right and who is wrong.

Move on, because the Holy Spirit has done so over a 1000 pages ago.

Your last statement proves you do not know the word and you place yourself in a position to speak in place of God....the Spirit accompanies the word everytime it is spoken....so...your statement is false.....on top of that the following rings true...

THE Spirit IS THE Truth <---two definite articles and a "be" verb.........by very design and the above grammar.....everytime the word is given...the SPIRIT is given with it....hence the fallacy of your statement!

 

[dcontroversal]

I would hope those who are so passionate about preaching against works based salvation are actually doing works themselves for the Lord.

We have consistently stated that faith alone saves eternally and that any work or fruit produced is a direct result of the salvation and faith one possesses in Christ already.....see...you guys ASSUME we do nothing because we stand on salvation being eternal and by faith through grace

 

[dcontroversal]

It means some believe they do not sin. Some of their sins they classify as "mistakes" lolzzzzzzzzzzzz...

You'll never convince any of them.

Anyhow, the apostle John was quite clear about those who believe they have no sin...

(This teaching is found among some Methodists and Nazarenes)

Amongst others as well I might add........

 

[Magenta]

Three bibles full and still no consensus.

There are some who agree with each other

The truth is already contained in this thread. But it is so long and silly now that any further posting makes everything gone before obsolete. Nobody will be reading page 972, and page 1246.

On which page did you find the truth?

Stale and silly. And everyone contributing to this silliness cannot anymore see the wood for the trees.

Thank you for your contribution

Exactly who here is being edified? Nobody anymore.

Yours is not an edifying post

It has become about pride. 100% about who is right and who is wrong.

You are right and everybody else is wrong kind of thing?
Funny you seem not to see yourself doing that very thing.

Move on, because the Holy Spirit has done so over a 1000 pages ago.

Which page number was it when the Holy Spirit gave up?

 

[PrynceNY]

We have consistently stated that faith alone saves eternally and that any work or fruit produced is a direct result of the salvation and faith one possesses in Christ already.....see...you guys ASSUME we do nothing because we stand on salvation being eternal and by faith through grace

What works for Christ have you done today dc? Besides debating people.

 

[dcontroversal]

What works for Christ have you done today dc? Besides debating people.

I recall Jesus saying not to boast of what you do or to specifically not do things to be seen of men, as well as not allowing one hand to know what the other hand is doing.........so...again you assume that I do nothing for the Lord......

 

[PrynceNY]

I recall Jesus saying not to boast of what you do or to specifically not do things to be seen of men, as well as not allowing one hand to know what the other hand is doing.........so...again you assume that I do nothing for the Lord......

It's not about boosting, nor do i assume anything it's a simple question. I see people screaming "Not of works!!" from the rooftops & i simply question the works they do if any.

 

[dcontroversal]

It's not about boosting, nor do i assume anything it's a simple question. I see people screaming "Not of works!!" from the rooftops & i simply question the works they do if any.

Is it your place to question? Just like assuming we live like the devil because of eternal security. Jesus said a cup of cold water in his name or the name of a disciple would not go unoticed and or unrewarded.....what qualifes as works....? I can give you a list of many things I have done in my life, but what good would that do? It would be boasting and I would rather wait and have my reward from God and not the praise of men......Also.....how many works are required? Does NOT 1 APPLE identify an apple tree....???

And by faith into the Son have not I already done the works of the FATHER??

 

[UnderGrace]

What have you done?

What works for Christ have you done today dc? Besides debating people.

 

[PrynceNY]

Is it your place to question? Just like assuming we live like the devil because of eternal security. Jesus said a cup of cold water in his name or the name of a disciple would not go unoticed and or unrewarded.....what qualifes as works....? I can give you a list of many things I have done in my life, but what good would that do? It would be boasting and I would rather wait and have my reward from God and not the praise of men......Also.....how many works are required? Does NOT 1 APPLE identify an apple tree....??? And by faith into the Son have not I already done the works of the FATHER??

People can easily state the things they have done for the lord without boosting. We serve the lord out of love do we not? I once heard a man who had spoke to the lord through a vision & he spoke about though he was saved the lord was displeased the man only served him when he felt like it. So i mean you don't have to tell works if you don't want to God will have that conversation with you