Not By Works
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Who cares?
Is he a 7th Day Adventist?
Is he Christian?
That means:
DOES HE BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD?
IS HE A DISCIPLE?
That's all I need to know.
Many here with strange ideas that Jesus would be TOTALLY UNFAMILIAR with.
But I love them anyway, as long as it stays civil.
I don't agree with having to worship on the Sabbath, but a case could be made for it.
I like to Honor the individual person, not what they believe.
Which is why I liked everyone here till I started getting fired at left and right FOR MY BELIEFS by some here.
Nasty business.
But, as you can see, I don't scare easily.
Know why?
I KNOW I'M RIGHT.
Terrible to say, insn't it?
Arrogant. I've been called that.
The one who called me arrogant is not arrogant for her beliefs, apparently.
But I am for mine.
It's like kindergarten here Dcon.
I come here when I need a break.
And to add some real theology to the stuff that goes on here. (not by all).
So yes, I do believe hyper-grace is ruining the Church and I'll speak up against it for as long as I can.
What's unfortunate is that there is a LAW KEEPING that is not Christian.
But some here are so FAR HYPER GRACE, that it even makes ME sound legalistic.
Whateva...
Sorry I carried on.
Is he a 7th Day Adventist?
Is he Christian?
That means:
DOES HE BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD?
IS HE A DISCIPLE?
That's all I need to know.
Many here with strange ideas that Jesus would be TOTALLY UNFAMILIAR with.
But I love them anyway, as long as it stays civil.
I don't agree with having to worship on the Sabbath, but a case could be made for it.
I like to Honor the individual person, not what they believe.
Which is why I liked everyone here till I started getting fired at left and right FOR MY BELIEFS by some here.
Nasty business.
But, as you can see, I don't scare easily.
Know why?
I KNOW I'M RIGHT.
Terrible to say, insn't it?
Arrogant. I've been called that.
The one who called me arrogant is not arrogant for her beliefs, apparently.
But I am for mine.
It's like kindergarten here Dcon.
I come here when I need a break.
And to add some real theology to the stuff that goes on here. (not by all).
So yes, I do believe hyper-grace is ruining the Church and I'll speak up against it for as long as I can.
What's unfortunate is that there is a LAW KEEPING that is not Christian.
But some here are so FAR HYPER GRACE, that it even makes ME sound legalistic.
Whateva...
Sorry I carried on.
P
The author of Hebrews tells us:
Love, particularly love for God's child (Christ and his members, the church), is the work that believers 'do' when they are saved. In fact, it's the sign of being in covenant with God. Just as outward circumcision was the sign of being in covenant with God in the first covenant, so circumcision of the heart (the putting off of the deeds of the flesh) is the sign of being in covenant with God in this New Covenant.
To arrive at the Judgment without this required circumcision will condemn you to destruction with the unbelieving. Not because putting off the deeds of the flesh and putting on the deeds of the Spirit somehow earns you salvation, but because that's what creatures changed by the Spirit of God through their faith in Christ do. Their change of heart proves they are believers with the new nature of Christ.
Anybody who thinks they can arrive at the Judgment with a works-less, uncircumcised heart will be sorely disappointed. No former confession of faith will be able to save them on that day. James said the confession of faith that is dead (having no works attached) can not save. Why? Because only the faith that then loves is the faith that justifies:
If your faith does not love in obedience to God's command, you do not have the faith that saves apart from works you think you have. You have a faith that can not save you on the Day of God's Wrath.
"9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:9-12 NASB)
Love, particularly love for God's child (Christ and his members, the church), is the work that believers 'do' when they are saved. In fact, it's the sign of being in covenant with God. Just as outward circumcision was the sign of being in covenant with God in the first covenant, so circumcision of the heart (the putting off of the deeds of the flesh) is the sign of being in covenant with God in this New Covenant.
To arrive at the Judgment without this required circumcision will condemn you to destruction with the unbelieving. Not because putting off the deeds of the flesh and putting on the deeds of the Spirit somehow earns you salvation, but because that's what creatures changed by the Spirit of God through their faith in Christ do. Their change of heart proves they are believers with the new nature of Christ.
Anybody who thinks they can arrive at the Judgment with a works-less, uncircumcised heart will be sorely disappointed. No former confession of faith will be able to save them on that day. James said the confession of faith that is dead (having no works attached) can not save. Why? Because only the faith that then loves is the faith that justifies:
"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision (that is, literal outward circumcision--see context) means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)
If your faith does not love in obedience to God's command, you do not have the faith that saves apart from works you think you have. You have a faith that can not save you on the Day of God's Wrath.
P
Only your unbelief can forfeit the salvation you have. Your return to a lifestyle of sin is just the outward manifestation of your return to unbelief. You are eternally saved as long as you keep believing. And believing is evidenced by your doing.
It's impossible to still have eternal life if you no longer abide in Jesus Christ, for Jesus Christ IS eternal life. The one who has returned to unbelief does not have the Son and does not have the Father and does not have life:
"Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20 NASB)
"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)
It's impossible to still have eternal life if you no longer abide in Jesus Christ, for Jesus Christ IS eternal life. The one who has returned to unbelief does not have the Son and does not have the Father and does not have life:
"Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20 NASB)
"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)
P
The church today reminds me of the Jews of old. They were confident they were saved because they were children of Abraham. But Paul explains that the real children of Abraham walk in the footsteps of Abraham.
And so it is with the church today. They are confident they are saved by virtue of being children of God. But the real children of God walk as Jesus did.
Obedience signified the real child of Abraham, just as obedience (read 'works') signifies the real child of God. But so many are sure their works-less OSAS doctrine is the assurance that they are a child of God safe from God's wrath. That's no more true for us then it was for the Jew.
And so it is with the church today. They are confident they are saved by virtue of being children of God. But the real children of God walk as Jesus did.
Obedience signified the real child of Abraham, just as obedience (read 'works') signifies the real child of God. But so many are sure their works-less OSAS doctrine is the assurance that they are a child of God safe from God's wrath. That's no more true for us then it was for the Jew.
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
Everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
Yep Amen, its strange to me that people always want to narrow this verse down to willful sin, as if the sins that they are committing are accidental or non willful. Like oops, I didn't to do mean that.
ALL sin is willful. We all willfully sin, so I guess according to their interpretation we are all off to the lake of fire.
I hear so many people say, "well willful sin really means repeating the same sin over and over."
Or "willful sin is sin that you are fully aware of, yet you commit anyway." and all sorts of other baloney that justifies their minor sins.
But that is really just based on their misunderstanding of grace and their rejection of the full forgiveness granted by Jesus on the Cross.
ALL sin is willful. We all willfully sin, so I guess according to their interpretation we are all off to the lake of fire.
I hear so many people say, "well willful sin really means repeating the same sin over and over."
Or "willful sin is sin that you are fully aware of, yet you commit anyway." and all sorts of other baloney that justifies their minor sins.
But that is really just based on their misunderstanding of grace and their rejection of the full forgiveness granted by Jesus on the Cross.
Amen!!
If we believe we are still condemned and we have to "work" our way out of condemnation, then these scriptures will always be understood from the perspective that God didn't really fully forgive us, and that there is lots we have to do to make sure God truly loves us. And if we fail,(too much) well then he is disgusted with us.
Yet if read from the understanding of His sacrifice, and of His character of love, then we can read it as such. A letter to some serious Jewish converts that were struggling with the truth that God no longer despises them for their sin.
If we believe we are still condemned and we have to "work" our way out of condemnation, then these scriptures will always be understood from the perspective that God didn't really fully forgive us, and that there is lots we have to do to make sure God truly loves us. And if we fail,(too much) well then he is disgusted with us.
Yet if read from the understanding of His sacrifice, and of His character of love, then we can read it as such. A letter to some serious Jewish converts that were struggling with the truth that God no longer despises them for their sin.
Hebrews 10:26
New International Version
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
New Living Translation
Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.
English Standard Version
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Young's Literal Translation
For we -- wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth -- no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,
New American Standard Bible
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The entirety of this scripture is literal.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth - If after we are converted and become true Christians we should apostatize, it would be impossible to be recovered again, for there would be no other sacrifice for sin; no way by which we could be saved. This passage, however, like Hebrews 6:4-6, has given rise to much difference of opinion. But that the above is the correct interpretation, seems evident to me from the following considerations:
(1) It is the natural and obvious interpretation, such as would occur probably to ninety-nine readers in a hundred, if there were no theory to support, and no fear that it would conflict with some other doctrine.
(2) it accords with the scope of the Epistle, which is, to keep those whom the apostle addressed from returning again to the Jewish religion, under the trials to which they were subjected.
(3) it is in accordance with the fair meaning of the language - the words "after that we have received the knowledge of the truth," referring more naturally to true conversion than to any other state of mind.
(4) the sentiment would not be correct if it referred to any but real Christians. It would not be true that one who had been somewhat enlightened, and who then sinned "wilfully," must look on fearfully to the judgment without a possibility of being saved. There are multitudes of cases where such persons are saved. They "wilfully" resist the Holy Spirit; they strive against him; they for a long time refuse to yield, but they are brought again to reflection, and are led to give their hearts to God.
(5) it is true, and always will be true, that if a sincere Christian should apostatize he could never be converted again; see the notes on Hebrews 6:4-6. The reasons are obvious. He would have tried the only plan of salvation, and it would have failed. He would have embraced the Saviour, and there would not have been efficacy enough in his blood to keep him, and there would be no more powerful Saviour and no more efficacious blood of atonement. He would have renounced the Holy Spirit, and would have shown that his influences were not effectual to keep him, and there would be no other agent of greater power to renew and save him after he had apostatized. For these reasons it seems clear to me that this passage refers to true Christians, and that the doctrine here taught is, that if such an one should apostatize, he must look forward only to the terrors of the judgment, and to final condemnation.
The obvious misunderstanding is in the quote above.
Hebrews 10:26 can be a stumbling block if we don't take the context in which this passage was written.
Some times well intentioned people take Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context with the rest of the book of Hebrews because of our religious church teachings handed down to us depending on our own denominational bias.
Anyone can take an isolated scripture out of it's context and say anything they want. Here is an example in the scripture below - Ex 32:33. Anyone who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book.
Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
This is truly stated in the OT but it is not the ultimate statement of truth. The work of Jesus's finished work on the cross trumps what is said in Ex. 32:33.
Obviously we need to view all scripture through the finished work of Christ. We don't take obscure verses and discount the abundance of clear scriptures on what our Lord has done for us.
Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins.
Hebrews was written a few years before the temple system came crashing down in 70AD when it was trampled by the Roman army.
The "willful sinning" is after hearing the "knowledge" of the truth of Christ's sacrifice - those that go back to the temple sacrifices and do not receive Christ's work by faith - this is the wilful sinning being talked about - the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and blood for the forgiveness of all sins.
This is insulting the Spirit of grace. The Holy Spirit's work is to convict/convince/expose the world of their sin - which is unbelief in Christ's work. John 16:8-9
There is a vast difference between receiving the "knowledge" of the truth and "receiving the truth" which is Christ Himself.
Some times well intentioned people take Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context with the rest of the book of Hebrews because of our religious church teachings handed down to us depending on our own denominational bias.
Anyone can take an isolated scripture out of it's context and say anything they want. Here is an example in the scripture below - Ex 32:33. Anyone who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book.
Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
This is truly stated in the OT but it is not the ultimate statement of truth. The work of Jesus's finished work on the cross trumps what is said in Ex. 32:33.
Obviously we need to view all scripture through the finished work of Christ. We don't take obscure verses and discount the abundance of clear scriptures on what our Lord has done for us.
Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins.
Hebrews was written a few years before the temple system came crashing down in 70AD when it was trampled by the Roman army.
The "willful sinning" is after hearing the "knowledge" of the truth of Christ's sacrifice - those that go back to the temple sacrifices and do not receive Christ's work by faith - this is the wilful sinning being talked about - the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and blood for the forgiveness of all sins.
This is insulting the Spirit of grace. The Holy Spirit's work is to convict/convince/expose the world of their sin - which is unbelief in Christ's work. John 16:8-9
There is a vast difference between receiving the "knowledge" of the truth and "receiving the truth" which is Christ Himself.
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According to Jewish tradition, which included sacrifices and offerings, these sacrifices covered unintentinal sins.
You make fun of it, but here does exist INTENTIONAL SIN and UNINTENTIONAL SIN.
An unintentinals sin, for instance, is something you do that you do not beleive is a sin, but actually is in God's eyes. We should remember that God is a pure and holy God and if perfect --- we are not and commit many more sins in one day than we can ever be aware of.
In fact, you could be doing something that is a sin, which is not a sin for someone else.
Thus, not all sin is willful, as you seem to assume.
And yes, willful sin is something done against God's Laws that one is fully aware of and consents to do.
You make a comment that some here justify their sinning.
I've not met anyone here who do this. Some do have the Words of Jesus totally misunderstood, however I doubt anyone justifies their sinning but are probably sorry for it.
Also you say that these persons are off to the Lake of Fire.
Can sins not be forgiven?
Are you saying that if someone sins they go off to the Lake of Fire?
Could you provide some scripture for this? I'm not familiar with this doctrine.
Also, you state that grace is misunderstood. Can it be?
Doesn't everyone here know about the love God has for us and how we don't deserve it?
You make fun of it, but here does exist INTENTIONAL SIN and UNINTENTIONAL SIN.
An unintentinals sin, for instance, is something you do that you do not beleive is a sin, but actually is in God's eyes. We should remember that God is a pure and holy God and if perfect --- we are not and commit many more sins in one day than we can ever be aware of.
In fact, you could be doing something that is a sin, which is not a sin for someone else.
Thus, not all sin is willful, as you seem to assume.
And yes, willful sin is something done against God's Laws that one is fully aware of and consents to do.
You make a comment that some here justify their sinning.
I've not met anyone here who do this. Some do have the Words of Jesus totally misunderstood, however I doubt anyone justifies their sinning but are probably sorry for it.
Also you say that these persons are off to the Lake of Fire.
Can sins not be forgiven?
Are you saying that if someone sins they go off to the Lake of Fire?
Could you provide some scripture for this? I'm not familiar with this doctrine.
Also, you state that grace is misunderstood. Can it be?
Doesn't everyone here know about the love God has for us and how we don't deserve it?
Narrowing down = focus.
The focus of the verse is not on willful sinning. It is focused on the fact that there is no more sacrifice for sin. Jesus paid it all. By focusing on sin and what you think is your own ability to sacrifice for sin, you look away from the finished work of Jesus.
I have zero misunderstanding of this verse.
The focus of the verse is not on willful sinning. It is focused on the fact that there is no more sacrifice for sin. Jesus paid it all. By focusing on sin and what you think is your own ability to sacrifice for sin, you look away from the finished work of Jesus.
I have zero misunderstanding of this verse.