Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Evmur]

Two thousand years +

Lots of lost souls in the mean time, is that is how your God works?

you mean [in this case] lots of lost Jewish souls ... I don't thinks so

I think they will be raise up with the church at the rapture, every Jew who has ever lived according to Daniel 12. some will shine with the brightness of the firmament some to everlasting shame. The WHOLE HOUSE of Israel.

And they will look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him and God will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication upon the whole house of Israel.

 

[Evmur]

Anyone who believes in predestination and God made them saved would definitely be on the "left side" because you won't ever see the Reformed doing...43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
They believe God does everything and doing works is against their doctrine.

we believe the works that God does in us and through us. who did God predestine to be damned?

Our names are in the book of life until they are blotted out.

.... but to be in the Lamb's book needs to be predestined.

 

[Evmur]

But God did most certainly predestine some to salvation. Come on, folk; it’s written. What does it say in Romans 8:29 again?
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

- Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)

Matthew 25:43 is certainly not talking about true Christians/Elect.

—Selah

... salvation is where in that scripture? I agree you couldn't be any of those things if you were not saved never-the-less you could be saved and not attain to those things.

 

[selahsays]

... salvation is where in that scripture? I agree you couldn't be any of those things if you were not saved never-the-less you could be saved and not attain to those things.

Good Saturday mornin’!
I believe “salvation” is in the word “justified“—Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Strong's Concordance
dikaiósis: the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal
Original Word: δικαίωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dikaiósis
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah'-yo-sis)
Definition: the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal
Usage: acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1347 dikaíōsis (a feminine noun derived from 1344/dikaióō, "to approve, justify") – justification (divine approval), emphasizing Christ's full payment of the debt for sin which liberates the believer from all divine condemnation. See 1343(dikaiosynē).

1347 /dikaíōsis ("justification") is used only in Ro 4:25 and Ro 5:18. It focuses on the acquitted penalty by receiving Christ – i.e. as a person is moved from eternal "condemned" to "divinely pardoned" at conversion. 1347 (dikaíōsis) is the cognate in the dik- word-family which most closely aligns with the theological meaning of the term justification."

[1347 (dikaíōsis), in ancient secular Greek, is closely associated with the pressing need to be released from deserved punishment(Josephus, Ant 18:14; Plutarch (Art 14:3). Thuccydides (3.82.4) uses 1347 (dikaíōsis) as "justification, in our sense of the word" (C. Spicq, 1:345).

 

[HeIsHere]

The WHOLE HOUSE of Israel.

In Christ are the redeemed and the redeemed are in Christ.

Christ is Israel.
New Testament supersedes the Old.

 

[Evmur]

Good Saturday mornin’!
I believe “salvation” is in the word “justified“—Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Strong's Concordance
dikaiósis: the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal
Original Word: δικαίωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dikaiósis
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah'-yo-sis)
Definition: the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal
Usage: acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1347 dikaíōsis (a feminine noun derived from 1344/dikaióō, "to approve, justify") – justification (divine approval), emphasizing Christ's full payment of the debt for sin which liberates the believer from all divine condemnation. See 1343(dikaiosynē).

1347 /dikaíōsis ("justification") is used only in Ro 4:25 and Ro 5:18. It focuses on the acquitted penalty by receiving Christ – i.e. as a person is moved from eternal "condemned" to "divinely pardoned" at conversion. 1347 (dikaíōsis) is the cognate in the dik- word-family which most closely aligns with the theological meaning of the term justification."

[1347 (dikaíōsis), in ancient secular Greek, is closely associated with the pressing need to be released from deserved punishment(Josephus, Ant 18:14; Plutarch (Art 14:3). Thuccydides (3.82.4) uses 1347 (dikaíōsis) as "justification, in our sense of the word" (C. Spicq, 1:345).

justified means shown to be right, in this case shown to be elect

 

[Mem]

Currently, there is two kingdoms that I'm aware of, the UK and Thailand have kings although I don't know that the extent of their political power would qualify one of a ruling capacity, that is I don't think their kings are sovereign. That is, although the people give nods to them, no one actually approaches with 'bended knee.' But until Shiloh, the one whom all tribute belongs, comes, Jacob declared that the scepter would not depart from Judah @Genesis 49:8-12. And Jesus came and declared the kingdom within you, but the kingdoms of the earth have yet to follow suit so, it is debatable that the scepter has departed from Judah, especially considering that Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

No one is incapable of bowing, though we may have trouble bowing fully. No one is incapable of loving, though we may struggle to love fully.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

In Christ are the redeemed and the redeemed are in Christ.

Christ is Israel.
New Testament supersedes the Old.

Everlasting - lasting or enduring through all time : ETERNAL

Psalms 105, “He remembers His covenant forever, the word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac, and confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant.”

 

[Moses_Young]

Everlasting - lasting or enduring through all time : ETERNAL

Psalms 105, “He remembers His covenant forever, the word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac, and confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant.”

So was the covenant of circumcision an "everlasting" covenant in the same context? Isn't it fulfilled through Christ in the same way? If so, doesn't that mean Christians are entitled to all the promises of God through Christ? If not, how does that reconcile with what Paul taught in his numerous letters such as Galatians?

Genesis 17:9 - 13
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Galatians 5:6
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

 

[selahsays]

justified means shown to be right, in this case shown to be elect

Yes.

 

[Magenta]

Oh yes, I agree He does. But I think this proves the point that man can respond to God as opposed to total depravity.

It seems much gets repeated and much gets left out of these back and forths. For instance, I do not believe anyone has said that man is incapable of responding to God. And I know you have objected to the idea of total depravity before, while seeming to not grasp that it basically means that God must move first. It is not exclusive to Calvinism either. Total depravity is irrefutably presented as a defining characteristic of the natural man in Arminianism also, as well as in Molinism, as it simply summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man before a holy God. Now we have people who are essentially saying that God moving first makes Him a tyrant Who is kidnapping people against their will to force them into marrying him. Even though we are told that Christ made us alive while we were still dead in our sins, some want to believe they needed no help from God at all.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

we believe the works that God does in us and through us. who did God predestine to be damned?

Our names are in the book of life until they are blotted out.

.... but to be in the Lamb's book needs to be predestined.

Amen, we're in the Book until we sin against God

33 But the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.

 

[selahsays]

Amen, we're in the Book until we sin against God

33 But the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.

… until we sin against God and do not repent with a broken and sincere heart.

To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, According to Your lovingkindness; According to the multitude of Your tender mercies, Blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions, And my sin is always before me. Against You, You only, have I sinned, And done this evil in Your sight—That You may be found just when You speak, And blameless when You judge. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me hear joy and gladness, That the bones You have broken may rejoice. Hide Your face from my sins, And blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit. Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners shall be converted to You. Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God, The God of my salvation, And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness. O Lord, open my lips, And my mouth shall show forth Your praise. For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart—These, O God, You will not despise.

- Psalm 51:1-17 (NKJV)

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

So was the covenant of circumcision an "everlasting" covenant in the same context? Isn't it fulfilled through Christ in the same way? If so, doesn't that mean Christians are entitled to all the promises of God through Christ? If not, how does that reconcile with what Paul taught in his numerous letters such as Galatians?
.

Oh absolutely, we are grafted in! I'm just saying we don't replace the Jews.

 

[Evmur]

In Christ are the redeemed and the redeemed are in Christ.

Christ is Israel.
New Testament supersedes the Old.

The NT declares Him to be King of the Jews ... that is what brought about His death.

I don't how folks read it but when Jesus comes He will return to Jerusalem ... we will go to meet Him in the clouds but His appearing is also to destroy Antichrist in the temple and all the armies which have come up with him.

God does not treat of Israel individually as He does us, He treats of them as the whole nation. They fell as a nation, as a nation they were scattered, and they will rise as a nation. According to Zechariah God will pour upon them a spirit of compassion and of supplication and the WHOLE nation will mourn for Him and pray.

... they are the seed of Isaac

... and nobody gets anything apart from Christ.

 

[maxamir]

Permit be to be blunt then, TULIP is not truth.

Tulips don't exist?

Have you had a chance to look at some of the Scriptures below?

 

[maxamir]

We have talked about Cornelius, how can one argue total depravity after reading about him and his family?

Cornelius was told that God chooses who He wants to reveal Himself to and not the other way around as you foolishly assume.

Act 10:40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly,
Act 10:41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

Stop robbing God of the glory of His salvation!

 

[maxamir]

Dear sir I don't disagree with any of these truths.

These things are true of the present situation.

I love the bible, I am sure you do too, in it everything you could ever wish to know about Israel is written, their history, not like British or American history which only records the great triumphs and success, feats of valour etc. The bible records the downside of Jewish history as well, their failures, and everything is prophesied well in advance. No Jew ever needed to be surprised at their defeat by the King of Babylon and their removal hence. And yet they were surprised.

They were surprised because they reading the wrong prophecies relating to a different time in their history, they were trusting in the wrong promises. Many Christians today are doing the same thing, believing the word of God that do not relate to them but which relate to a different time and a different epoch.

So far as prophecy goes and eschatology people take all the prophecies relating to Israel and mix them up into a massive stew as though all prophecies either relate to the past or to the future.

You say their stumble was a thing appointed unto them ... why are you surprised then that they did stumble? what have they done that they were not appointed or ELECT to do? YOU could not have been saved if they had not stumbled. Their greatest sin has turned out to be God's greatest triumph.

This is the summing up of Paul's lengthy teaching on the Jews in Romans.

Have they then stumbled so as to fall? God forbid! but through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles so as to make Israel jealous ..... [Paul recognises that there is still an Israel who God is dealing with]
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles how much more will their FULL INCLUSION mean? Romans 11.

Their rejection has meant reconciliation for the world but their acceptance mean but life from the dead? People talking so much about the Rapture or the first resurrection life from the dead. Y'all hear me now, there will be no rapture until the Jews are ready to be brought in.

The coming of the Lord is for to reign and He will reign through Israel. He was crucified as King of the Jews and so He still is.

When people read prophecy related to Israel they must read those prophecies which relate to and generally start "it will come to pass in the latter days," all the other prophecies have come to pass, it is now history. How God smote the Shepherd and scattered the sheep. Jesus said that happened when He was arrested.

Now the prophecies relating to God's gathering of His sheep are the prophecies relating to Israel today ... and we see it with our own eyes.

Their time is coming and our time of redemption is coming. Glory for the Jews and greater glory for the Church. But you can't leave the Jews out of the equation. It is like taking a huge slice out of a cake.

their time came and they missed it as was foretold which indeed turned out to be beneficial for all people throughout the whole world in Paul's lifetime as he confirmed in his letter to the Romans, proving that the time of the Gentiles were being fulfilled and that there is no more true descendants of Abraham except for those who are Abraham's seed in Christ.

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Rom 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "THEIR SOUND HAS GONE OUT TO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Israel that you know of today is a satanic counterfeit of the Israel of old as Christ had warned.

Rev 2:9 "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

 

[maxamir]

Firstly they are not the church they are the nations, "The King will come and set all the nations before Him" The church is not the nations.

We do not know what their reward is, Is eternal life granted for good deeds?

"Lord when did we see You hungry and feed You" shows that did not know the truth concerning "Christ IN YOU the hope of glory"

It doesn't make sense

Jesus said they had done it to "these My brethren" how then can they also be "these My brethren?" why then didn't He say to the goats "ye did it not to one of the least of these sheep"?

"these My brethren" are the church.

So what about their reward? You know their is to be a NEW earth and a new heaven. Who then are to populate the earth?

Even though heaven and earth are to be united in that day yet still there is earth as distinct from heaven. "blessed be the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven ... blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth"

the church is made up of His elect from among all nations, tribes, people and tongues (Rev 7:9) They obey God and do good deeds not to get eternal life but because they already have eternal life.

Christ did not tell the goats that they were disobedient in service to the brethren because the goats are not brethren to the sheep even though they called Christ Lord as also did those He said He did not know in Matthew 7:21-23.

Those who populate the New Earth are the redeemed Bride of the Lord (Rev 21:2).

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

[maxamir]

God foreknew ... God did not prophesy to Adam that he would sin, He warned him of the consequences and strictly forbade him.

One way of putting it would be to say that Adam rebelled against God's predestinated plan.

I would rather say that Adam fulfilled God's predestined plan in his rebellion for the purpose of God's greater glory which was made before time began and the foundation of the world.

2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.