Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Mem]

Look what I noticed of John 14 leading up to the context of

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

21Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.”

22Judas (not Iscariot) asked Him, “Lord, why are You going to reveal Yourself to us and not to the world?”

23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me.

The Son came to reveal the Father, and unless the Father (Whom you cannot know except that you hold Jesus' Word as faithful) draws you, then you will not love the Son and He will not reveal Himself to you.

Those who are repulsed by the (revelation of the) Father belong to their father, the devil, and want to carry out his desires (John 8:44) which all of you were at one time or another.

So, if the circumcision is the revealing of the Spiritual (because we know Him not in the body but as He is) then the circumcision isn't necessarily done before you love Him. Rather, having His commandments and keeping them is an offering of love toward Him, which will affect His Father's love and His revealing of Himself.

 

[Evmur]

Hi, Evmur…I agree with some of the things you’ve written, but I believe that the sheep mentioned in verse 25 of Matthew are indeed the Elect.
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
This separation of the sheep and the goats happens at the time of the seventh trump when Christ returns.
Jesus is speaking to His elect, those who were chosen from the foundation of the world. He is extremely proud of them, letting them know it’s inheritance time.
—Selah

Reward

that agitates against the very essence of sovereign grace

the wording is all wrong, if "these My brethren" were themselves.

 

[Evmur]

It is "Fulfillment Theology."

God completely fulfilled His promises to Abraham in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:16). Therefore, Gentile believers have been grafted into the original Olive Tree--the commonwealth of Israel that first accepted the Seed of the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 11:17)--and now there is neither Jew nor Gentile. (Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11)

nobody is arguing

... Israel will turn to Christ

 

[selahsays]

Not in the theology of Total Depravity.

Your trying to propose that someone who is totally depraved. Can by
magic perform even one fruit of the Holy Spirit. The only good work
is what Christ does through you.

You must be joking.

I assume that you understand that mankind always follows a path
of evil. They are not ever righteous. There can be no fruit of the Holy
Spirit in their lives, they crucified their creator.

There is a conflict taking place in your mind.

You know what Total Depravity really means but you cannot accept it.

I agree that in the world, there is total depravity. Why? because the Bible says so. …but because of God's all-sufficient grace, He gave us Jesus, His only begotten Son, as a perfect sacrifice so that, in Him, we would no longer have to live in this completely depraved state. Our justification and reconciliation with God are found in Him. Perhaps we need to focus a little more on this wonderful gift of grace from our Father in Heaven. Yes, we were totally depraved, but for those of us who call on His name, we have been made the righteousness of God in Him.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. - 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (KJV)
—Selah

 

[PaulThomson]

I agree that in the world, there is total depravity. Why? because the Bible says so. …

I don't see the words "total depravity" in the Bible, so it doesn't say so. What does it say, that you interpret as "total depravity"?

 

[HeIsHere]

nobody is arguing

... Israel will turn to Christ

Two thousand years +

Lots of lost souls in the mean time, is that is how your God works?

 

[HeIsHere]

Two thousand years +

Lots of lost souls in the mean time, is that is how your God works?

@ThereRoseaLamb don't be sad.

All are welcome to come to Jesus.... as individuals (not as a nation) and many have and will continue to do so!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

@ThereRoseaLamb don't be sad.

All are welcome to come to Jesus.... as individuals (not as a nation) and many have and will continue to do so!

I was discussing with my mother last night about total depravity and she brought up two people I hadn't thought of. The rich young ruler and the prodigal son. Both made a choice to follow or not. I say it again, the Bible does not teach total depravity. We agree on that for certain.

 

[HeIsHere]

I was discussing with my mother last night about total depravity and she brought up two people I hadn't thought of. The rich young ruler and the prodigal son. Both made a choice to follow or not. I say it again, the Bible does not teach total depravity. We agree on that for certain.

Yes indeed!

The power is in the life giving words of the Gospel message and His the written word.
People still have the ability to reason. That is why we are called to give an answer for the hope within us.
Paul stated, "Come now, Let us reason together!"

The natural man is not born morally incapable of responding to the power of the Gospel message, he may become to that but he did not start that way.

 

[selahsays]

Reward

that agitates against the very essence of sovereign grace

the wording is all wrong, if "these My brethren" were themselves.

Reward (inheritance) agitates the essence of grace? How so?

 

[selahsays]

I don't see the words "total depravity" in the Bible, so it doesn't say so. What does it say, that you interpret as "total depravity"?

Hi. First of all, I’m not a Calvinist. But hey, you know what? We all need to just read the Bible and forget about the Calvinism versus Arminianism thing. So yeah, The words “total depravity” are not written in the Bible. However, the essence of their meaning is expressed in many places in the Bible, including Romans 3:10-18 Ecclesiastes 7:20, and Romans 3:23-26, to name just a very few.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. - Romans 3:10-18 (KJV)

For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. - Ecclesiastes 7:20 (KJV)

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. - Romans 3:23-26 (KJV)

—Selah

 

[selahsays]

Hi. First of all, I’m not a Calvinist. But hey, you know what? We all need to just read the Bible and forget about the Calvinism versus Arminianism thing. So yeah, The words “total depravity” are not written in the Bible. However, the essence of their meaning is expressed in many places in the Bible, including Romans 3:10-18 Ecclesiastes 7:20, and Romans 3:23-26, to name just a very few.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. - Romans 3:10-18 (KJV)

For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. - Ecclesiastes 7:20 (KJV)

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. - Romans 3:23-26 (KJV)

—Selah

And so, God gave us His only begotten Son:

For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

- John 3:16-18 (KJV)

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I don't see the words "total depravity" in the Bible, so it doesn't say so. What does it say, that you interpret as "total depravity"?

There's a 2 point response to this answer but the first point is still the fact over both points.

1. Acts 17 Paul tells us God made a way that we can seek Him. This is why Total Depravity is a lie.

2. Even though God made a way to seek Him humanity does not. But that is not a reason to think we are depraved because we choose not to seek God when God made a way that we could find Him.

The great thing is that God created Preachers/Evangelists/Missionaries. They have literally went all over the known world and preached the Gospel to everyone so no one has an excuse.

So God provided 2 ways to Find Him that covers not looking for Him because His followers are coming to you.

Total Depravity is indeed a False Doctrine because we can seek God on our own or if we do not someone will come along and preach God to us. One way or another we will have the chance to become heirs to God.

 

[selahsays]

There's a 2 point response to this answer but the first point is still the fact over both points.

1. Acts 17 Paul tells us God made a way that we can seek Him. This is why Total Depravity is a lie.

2. Even though God made a way to seek Him humanity does not. But that is not a reason to think we are depraved because we choose not to seek God when God made a way that we could find Him.

The great thing is that God created Preachers/Evangelists/Missionaries. They have literally went all over the known world and preached the Gospel to everyone so no one has an excuse.

So God provided 2 ways to Find Him that covers not looking for Him because His followers are coming to you.

Total Depravity is indeed a False Doctrine because we can seek God on our own or if we do not someone will come along and preach God to us. One way or another we will have the chance to become heirs to God.

Yep, unless the whole TRUTH is told.

 

[HeIsHere]

1. Acts 17 Paul tells us God made a way that we can seek Him. This is why Total Depravity is a lie.

Amen!

 

[PaulThomson]

Hi. First of all, I’m not a Calvinist. But hey, you know what? We all need to just read the Bible and forget about the Calvinism versus Arminianism thing. So yeah, The words “total depravity” are not written in the Bible. However, the essence of their meaning is expressed in many places in the Bible, including Romans 3:10-18 Ecclesiastes 7:20, and Romans 3:23-26, to name just a very few.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. - Romans 3:10-18 (KJV)

For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. - Ecclesiastes 7:20 (KJV)

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. - Romans 3:23-26 (KJV)

—Selah

"All have sinned" does not mean "all have always only sinned."
"There is not a just man upon the earth that keeps on doing good and does not sin" does not mean "there is no man who ever does good and never sins."
The present tense in Romans 3:23-26 does not necessarily imply a gnomic present, expressing a ubiquitous truth, such as "water is a liquid." The basic sense of the present tense in Greek is a continuous or repetitive action or state in the present. If that reading is possible, that is the sense that should be first taken. "There is none that keeps on being righteous, none that keeps on understanding, none that keeps on seeking God; they keep on going out of the way... none that keeps on doing good... their throayt keeps on being an open sepulchre.... the poison of asps keeps on being under their lips...mouth keeps on being full of cursing and bitterness... feet keep on being swift to shed blood... destruction and misery keep on being in their ways... there keeps on being no fear of god before theireyes." "

 

[studier]

"All have sinned" does not mean "all have always only sinned."
"There is not a just man upon the earth that keeps on doing good and does not sin" does not mean "there is no man who ever does good and never sins."
The present tense in Romans 3:23-26 does not necessarily imply a gnomic present, expressing a ubiquitous truth, such as "water is a liquid." The basic sense of the present tense in Greek is a continuous or repetitive action or state in the present. If that reading is possible, that is the sense that should be first taken. "There is none that keeps on being righteous, none that keeps on understanding, none that keeps on seeking God; they keep on going out of the way... none that keeps on doing good... their throayt keeps on being an open sepulchre.... the poison of asps keeps on being under their lips...mouth keeps on being full of cursing and bitterness... feet keep on being swift to shed blood... destruction and misery keep on being in their ways... there keeps on being no fear of god before theireyes." "

Looks like you're actually explaining Romans 3:10-18.

Good reminder to be looking at the verb tense more closely.

And I'm sure you know this, but just to get this out there, the gnomic present is one of at minimum 11 ways we can interpret what the author is saying with a present tense verb. Then there is the fact that this Greek thinking does not view time as simplistically as we do. So there's much more to it when we really dig into it.

Thanks for bringing this into the discussion.

 

[PaulThomson]

Scripture is what I presented. I see you stumble over it. You prefer going beyond and pretending you don't.

I was not referring to your bible verse. I was referring to your commentary.

Magenta said:
I am of the mind that free will does not exist and is nowhere presented in the Bible in the way people use the words. Many erroneously conflate the ability to make choices with having fee will. The natural man is a slave to sin, born an enemy of God, hostile in his mind toward Him, unable to choose/love God until God draws/enables him through heart circumcision. Sinners suppress the truth in unrighteousness because they love their sin. They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. They hear the gospel message as foolishness, for the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! He draws us with loving kindness. We love because He loved us first. That is what the Bible has to say on the matter... .

 

[maxamir]

A few examination of the verses favors NON TULIP. Thanks

If you believe that salvation belongs to the will of man and not to the Lord then you do not yet know the Lord of Holy Scripture.

 

[maxamir]

"raised you up" is not "predestined"

If God did not ordain all things that come to pass then prophecy would be a lie and God would not be God.