Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[maxamir]

Here is the verse you quoted above.

Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

The verse above said The Father hid these things from the wise and prudent.

The wise and the prudent is not all unbelievers, only those who consider
themselves wise and prudent. In the context I dare say the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

Luke 10:21, does not prove that God hates people and especially not for eternity.

Luke 10:21, will not dismiss quoting the verse below out of the context of Romans.

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Your dead wrong in quoting Romans 9:13 to support sovereign election.

God resists the proud and only gives grace to the humble (Pro 3:34, Jas 4:6, 1 Pet 5:5) therefore those who are not given grace before time began (2 Tim 1:9) are justly left to pursue the evil that the love and kept in darkness by Satan at God's will.

2Co 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2Th 2:12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Those whom God elects are those He loves and those whom He does not elect are those He hates. It is really quite simple but because you have been so seduced by a man-centred false gospel you have swallowed the lie that God loves absolutely everyone, even those He justly casts into Hell when the Scriptures plainly proclaim that God loves those who love Him and they only do so because He first loved them (Pro 8:17, 1 J 4:19) and that love is eternal (Jer 31:3).

 

[John146]

And yet, still no answer to the question. Same with another poster earlier. If you say old covenant, you have to say it hasn't passed away, which is false. If you say new covenant, you have to show the new covenant provision where God deals with nations and not individuals based on faith, which you also can't show.
You are lost in a confused covenant state.

God never had a covenant with Gentiles.

 

[maxamir]

The many refers to salvation the chosen refers to being the body of Christ. We see in the gospels and Acts and throughout church history that many are saved but only few serve.

the many that are called are those to whom the Gospel is preached but out of all those who hear there are very few who are saved as Christ confirmed in the parable of the sower and His quote below.

Mat_7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Mat_7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[maxamir]

Be very careful when Jesus is talking to His chosen people the Jews.

Many people quote Jesus out of that context and apply what Jesus said to the Gentiles.

When Jesus uttered those verse from Matthew, the Gentiles were ignorant of the gospel.

Here is a good example of quoting a verse out of it's context.

Matthew 9:16
But no one puts a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from
the garment, and a worse tear results.

Which can only be applied to the Jews. The old garment is the Mosaic law, the old covenant.

the chosen people are His elect from all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues throughout the whole world as was promised to Abraham and not one nation which was a shadow and type of the true Israel of God whose citizens are not those circumcised in the flesh but in the heart and are the true Judeans (Jews) and spiritual seed of Abraham.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

 

[maxamir]

This is a direct contradiction to the scripture and all that we know about God.

God did not decree "thou shalt sin" He decreed "thou shalt not"

Evil is not sin per se, man partaking sin and the knowledge of evil is sin. Man is created for good only.

As I have already explained, God decreed by secondary causes that sin should enter the world for His greater glory.

Man could never truly know that he was created for good or what good was until he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Cameron143]

God never had a covenant with Gentiles.

The covenant of grace includes Gentiles.

What covenants do you think there are?

 

[maxamir]

To say Christ went to preach judgement is once more a contradiction of what the bible says. It is a supposition based upon Calvins view of double predestination ... it's what YOU suppose.

The scripture says He went to preach.

Paul clearly stated that in the preaching of the Gospel the righteousness of God is revealed (Rom 1:17) and continued to describe how God justly hands men over to the evil that they love unto their greater condemnation and demonstration of His righteousness (Rom 3:5) which is most clearly seen at the cross where Christ satisfied that which an eternity in Hell could never do for His people.

The Word of God is a double edged sword which cuts both ways. It is an aroma of life unto life to some (the elect) and to others (the reprobate) it is an aroma of death unto death (2 Cor 2:15-16). This is why Christ told the people of His time that they were more accountable than Sodom and Gomorrah for they saw His miracles and heard His Gospel but never repented and the same warning needs to be given to all who hear the Gospel today!

 

[cv5]

Fulfilment Theology at its grandest.

It is time to step out of the shadows and types of the Old that have passed away and come into the glorious light of Christ seen so clearly in the NEW.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
2Co 3:11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

Yes, the 70 A.D. nutters and replacement theology nutters wrongly espouse that the introduction of the New Covenant destroys the nation Israel and it's purpose.

When in fact exactly the opposite is true. Truthfully, the nation Israel finally FULLFILLS its intened purpose at last. Thereby fulfilling prophecy of course.

The 70ad and replacement theology nutters never get it right. Never have.......never will.

 

[cv5]

And yet, still no answer to the question. Same with another poster earlier. If you say old covenant, you have to say it hasn't passed away, which is false. If you say new covenant, you have to show the new covenant provision where God deals with nations and not individuals based on faith, which you also can't show.
You are lost in a confused covenant state.

Truth be told your questions themselves are rooted in stygian ignorance. Sorry to say.

 

[maxamir]

There are some tricky scriptures here that need very careful attention.
Jude 1. 4.
He specifically does NOT say they were predestined to be marked out for this condemnation he says they were "long ago" That signifies a period in time. I.E a period after man had fallen. in history not prehistory.

Predestination is what God planned before the creation.

1. Peter 2.8
Yes they were appointed, the Jews were appointed for to stumble, in another place Peter says that Christ was given up to be crucified by the predeterminate will of God.

Without the Jews YOU could not be saved my friend. This PROVES their ELECTION, and predestination and election cannot be revoked. This proves security for the Jews every bit as much as it does for the church. If their election is faulty then so is your own. If they are not secure then neither are you.

You quoted Genesis 50. 20 which is a near perfect picture of Israel and Christ. Joseph loved his brothers, he never stopped loving them, he pardoned them at the end and became their saviour as God had fore shown in his dreams.

Paul in summing all he had taught concerning Israel said "ALL Israel will be saved"

Now let's look at Romans 9. 22 which you quoted and verse 23 which you did not quote.

What if God desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power , has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction.

in order to make known the riches of His glory for the vessels of mercy, which He has PREPARED BEFOREHAND for glory

... even us whom He has called....

You see it don't you? predestination only applies to the mercy not to the wrath.

Your last statement is not scripture, doesn't look like scripture, doesn't taste like scripture ... it is the workings out of human scholarship.

when were the vessels of wrath made for destruction if the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world and time began?

Logic demands that those who were not chosen for salvation were done at the same moment as confirmed below to demonstrate the glory of His power and just wrath upon the lumps of dishonour whom God hates and were were left hardened according to the good pleasure of the Potter.

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Remember, not all Israel is Israel. Elijah thought he alone was the only one left but was told that God had reserved a remnant of 7000. Many scholars estimate the the population of Israel was about 2.5 million at that time and that remnant works out to be about a quarter of one percent of the whole nation. God has a remnant which He told Abraham was found among all nations and not the one to which conditional covenants were given and they utterly broke and stumbled upon the Rock which is Christ as was prophesied therefore the only true Jews today are Christians who are the true Israel of God and seed of Abraham in Christ.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Cameron143]

Truth be told your questions themselves are rooted in stygian ignorance. Sorry to say.

That's funny considering your answers are rooted in stygian ignorance. Who knew we we had stygian ignorance in common?

 

[maxamir]

This is in error

Abraham was not granted the gift of faith. Abraham chose to trust God. and because of this faith, he was accounted or granted righteousness.

romans 4: 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Abraham was accounted rightious because he had faith. And because oe was accounted righteous, he was born again,

Men are dead amen, The wage of sin is death.

But man will nto be made alive until that which killed them is removed. The act of removing the penalty is called justification. Or being declaired or imputed righteousness.

And as this passage clearly states, that is done THROUGH faith.

Faith comes first. THEN righteousness is added, and new birth is accomplished

but how can one have faith when they are dead as you confirmed?

How can one believe and choose the kingdom of God if they can't even see it unless they are first born again as Christ confirmed? (John 3:3).

Sadly, because you do not yet know who God truly is, you therefore do not yet know who man truly is and that it is impossible for man to do anything to be saved (Mark 10:26-27) unless God is the first cause by granting the gift of faith through the preaching of the Gospel.

Psa_119:49 Remember the word to Your servant, Upon which You have caused me to hope.

2Co 4:6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Until God humbles you to submit to this plain truth of Scripture you will remain judicially blinded to the truth that salivation belongs to the Lord (Psa 3:8) and not the choice of man as you foolishly assume.

 

[maxamir]

Abraham chose to believe God

and because of abrahams CHOICE. God credit or accounted him as righteous.

Abraham can then boast before God, can't he?

1Co 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
1Co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
1Co 1:29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

 

[cv5]

stygian ignorance?

So then listen to each those lectures that I posted three or four times. Over and over again. And remedy that ignorance of yours. Unless of course you enjoy your dank stygian cave of Biblical illiteracy.

By the way you clearly stated that you had absolutely no idea of what those passages in Judges 15 meant. So at least you get points for honesty.

If you do not know (and obviously you do not), Samson is one of the most remarkable types of Christ in all the Bible.

Tearing apart a young roaring lion effortlessly. Prefiguring how Jesus destroys the antichrist effortlessly with the breath of His mouth.......at the near future second coming.

 

[maxamir]

This ignores my response and repeats what you already said.

NKJ Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and [it] (Abraham's believing God) was accounted (logizomai) to him for righteousness."

NKJ Romans 4:5-6 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (belief upon God - believing God) is accounted (logizomai) for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes accounts (logizomai) righteousness apart from works:

God spoke > Abraham believed God/upon God > God accounted Abraham's believing God/believing upon God for righteousness.

Per these verses, God accounts (gives) righteousness. God does not account (give) faith.

In Rom4:9 the last clause, especially based upon the context of Abraham believing God & believing upon God, is saying this: "...For we are saying the (This article is pointing us back to what is said about Abraham believing upon God and what God said to him. An article like this in context can also be translated as "his") faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

This article is important. To negate it as some English translations tend to do creates problems. Some English translations are picking up what this verse in context is saying:

NET Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness then for the circumcision or also for the uncircumcision? For we say, "faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness."

NIV Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.

NJB Romans 4:9 Is this blessing only for the circumcised, or is it said of the uncircumcised as well? Well, we said of Abraham that his faith was reckoned to him as uprightness.

The only thing we're told here (from Genesis) in context is that God spoke to Abraham then Abraham believed God then God accounted righteousness to Abraham.

Faith is being accounted = taken into account = considered here. Faith is not being gifted.

credited to, reckoned to, accounted to, imputed to all mean the same thing that the righteousness that Abraham received from God was given to him through through the instrument of faith which was given to him by grace. It is God who gives man knowledge which is faith and that is why He is the Author and Finisher of it (Heb 12:2).

2Co 4:6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

No one is justified by faith in and of itself but by grace, through faith in the blood of Christ (Romans 3-5). The only reason why Abraham believed is because like Noah, he found grace not in his own eyes but in the eyes of the Lord (Gen 6:8).

 

[maxamir]

This is a systematic theological assertion and interpretation of John3:3 which tells us birth from above then see the Kingdom of God. It does not specify what precedes the new birth and it does not establish that seeing the Kingdom of God = believing that Jesus is the Christ.

what precedes the new birth is spiritual death and blindness wherein man who lost the image and likeness of God in the Fall became cursed in Adam, a slave to sin and Satan, who blinds people from seeing the truth and believing unless they are born again in Christ who is the Image of God who restores His image in His people which is true righteousness, holiness and an intimate knowledge of God (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10).

2Co 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

 

[Cameron143]

So then listen to each those lectures that I posted three or four times. Over and over again. And remedy that ignorance of yours. Unless of course you enjoy your dank stygian cave of Biblical illiteracy.

By the way you clearly stated that you had absolutely no idea of what those passages in Judges 15 meant. So at least you get points for honesty.

If you do not know (and obviously you do not), Samson is one of the most remarkable types of Christ in all the Bible.

Tearing apart a young roaring lion effortlessly. Prefiguring how Jesus destroys the antichrist effortlessly with the breath of His mouth.......at the near future second coming.

If you are going to quote me, I would appreciate you quoting my post as I write it. I never asked what stygian ignorance was. I've grown accustomed to your rudeness, but now you are being disingenuous and dishonest.

And while Samson may typify Christ, there is nothing in the story that suggests a timeline. You live in types and shadows. All the promises of God are in Him yes, and in Him amen. Christ is far superior to Samson.

 

[cv5]

credited to, reckoned to, accounted to, imputed to all mean the same thing that the righteousness that Abraham received from God was given to him through through the instrument of faith which was given to him by grace. It is God who gives man knowledge which is faith and that is why He is the Author and Finisher of it (Heb 12:2).

2Co 4:6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

No one is justified by faith in and of itself but by grace, through faith in the blood of Christ (Romans 3-5). The only reason why Abraham believed is because like Noah, he found grace not in his own eyes but in the eyes of the Lord (Gen 6:8).

A competent Bible scholar could easily prove that Satan is a hyper-Calvinist.

Same goes for replacement theology and kicking Israel to the curb.

So good luck with your hyper-Calvinism.

 

[maxamir]

As I've detailed re: Biblical Faith, there are substantial arguments that can be used against interpretive gifted faith.

I can and have easily (maybe not for some) posited that The Faith = The Gospel and that the Faith that is gifted is the Good News and the content of the Good News, which is God's Son.

Gospel proclaimed > men believe the Gospel they hear and learn.

The Lord opened Lydia's heart can also be lexically interpreted to conceptually include the Lord explaining to her.

The Lord opened Lydia's heart to heed is lexically defined as: to be concerned about; to pay close attention to.

Paul proclaimed to Lydia > The Lord opened Lydia's heart to pay attention to what Paul was proclaiming > Lydia and her house were baptized.

This does not say God gave her faith. It says the Lord opened her heart to pay close attention. The logical conclusion that can be drawn is that Lydia believed what Paul spoke. If anything here, the Lord made Paul's proclamation clear to her so she could believe it. In effect it could be said that God gave Lydia faith because the content Paul spoke was from God and God opened her heart to pay close attention. But "in effect" does not mean God gifted faith. It means God gifted the content to believe and assisted her so she could understand so she could believe.

It seems like you have not yet realised that man is as described by Ezekiel in the valley of dry bones which did not live until God had spoken to them through the prophesy of the Prophet in the same manner that God uses the Gospel to bring back from the dead His people today.

Eze 37:4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
Eze 37:5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.

Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.

God first chooses, then calls, then justifies those He glorifies. This is known as the golden chain of redemption because all of the glory goes to Him alone!

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[cv5]

there is nothing in the story that suggests a timeline.

That is exactly what those afflicted with stygian ignorance and willful recalcitrance believe. So you are in good company.