Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Inquisitor]

Can you please tell me why you completely ignored the verse I posted in Luke 10:21 which proved that God does not, never has and never will desire the salivation of those He eternally hates and keeps them hardened to the truth to glorify His perfectly good, holy, righteous, just wrath?

Here is the verse you quoted above.

Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

The verse above said The Father hid these things from the wise and prudent.

The wise and the prudent is not all unbelievers, only those who consider
themselves wise and prudent. In the context I dare say the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

Luke 10:21, does not prove that God hates people and especially not for eternity.

Luke 10:21, will not dismiss quoting the verse below out of the context of Romans.

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Your dead wrong in quoting Romans 9:13 to support sovereign election.

 

[Evmur]

Jesus said many were called but few were chosen/elected. What does Scripture say is the basis of their election?

The many refers to salvation the chosen refers to being the body of Christ. We see in the gospels and Acts and throughout church history that many are saved but only few serve.

 

[Inquisitor]

Scripture interprets Scripture and what Jesus said about parables reveals that these simple picture stories were given as judgement to prove the judicial blindness and hardness of heart of those who heard them in fulfilment of Isaiah's prophecy and Christ rejoiced in the goodness of this judgement in Luke 10:21.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Mat 13:12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'HEARING YOU WILL HEAR AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND, AND SEEING YOU WILL SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE;
Mat 13:15 FOR THE HEARTS OF THIS PEOPLE HAVE GROWN DULL. THEIR EARS ARE HARD OF HEARING, AND THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED, LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, LEST THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEARTS AND TURN, SO THAT I SHOULD HEAL THEM.'
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

Be very careful when Jesus is talking to His chosen people the Jews.

Many people quote Jesus out of that context and apply what Jesus said to the Gentiles.

When Jesus uttered those verse from Matthew, the Gentiles were ignorant of the gospel.

Here is a good example of quoting a verse out of it's context.

Matthew 9:16
But no one puts a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from
the garment, and a worse tear results.

Which can only be applied to the Jews. The old garment is the Mosaic law, the old covenant.

 

[Evmur]

God indeed decrees all things that come to pass otherwise prophecy would be impossible. He being light and no darkness within Him (1 Jn 1:5) even decreed the evil that came into this world for His greater glory.

KJV Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Christ before His incarnation ministered through Noah to those before the Flood and after His death went to the abode of the dead in the bosom of Abraham and preached to those on the other side of Hades the righteous judgement they deserved.

This is a direct contradiction to the scripture and all that we know about God.

God did not decree "thou shalt sin" He decreed "thou shalt not"

Evil is not sin per se, man partaking sin and the knowledge of evil is sin. Man is created for good only.

 

[Evmur]

God indeed decrees all things that come to pass otherwise prophecy would be impossible. He being light and no darkness within Him (1 Jn 1:5) even decreed the evil that came into this world for His greater glory.

KJV Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Christ before His incarnation ministered through Noah to those before the Flood and after His death went to the abode of the dead in the bosom of Abraham and preached to those on the other side of Hades the righteous judgement they deserved.

To say Christ went to preach judgement is once more a contradiction of what the bible says. It is a supposition based upon Calvins view of double predestination ... it's what YOU suppose.

The scripture says He went to preach.

 

[Evmur]

Jud 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:8 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

God who is supremely sovereign, eternal and outside of time decreed all things that come to pass, even the entry of evil by the choice of man at the temptation of the devil to demonstrate His holy hatred for evil and His holy love in saving His people from that evil in Jesus Christ. If this were not so there would be no way for anyone to know and glorify His holy attributes.

Gen 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

There are some tricky scriptures here that need very careful attention.
Jude 1. 4.
He specifically does NOT say they were predestined to be marked out for this condemnation he says they were "long ago" That signifies a period in time. I.E a period after man had fallen. in history not prehistory.

Predestination is what God planned before the creation.

1. Peter 2.8
Yes they were appointed, the Jews were appointed for to stumble, in another place Peter says that Christ was given up to be crucified by the predeterminate will of God.

Without the Jews YOU could not be saved my friend. This PROVES their ELECTION, and predestination and election cannot be revoked. This proves security for the Jews every bit as much as it does for the church. If their election is faulty then so is your own. If they are not secure then neither are you.

You quoted Genesis 50. 20 which is a near perfect picture of Israel and Christ. Joseph loved his brothers, he never stopped loving them, he pardoned them at the end and became their saviour as God had fore shown in his dreams.

Paul in summing all he had taught concerning Israel said "ALL Israel will be saved"

Now let's look at Romans 9. 22 which you quoted and verse 23 which you did not quote.

What if God desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power , has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction.

in order to make known the riches of His glory for the vessels of mercy, which He has PREPARED BEFOREHAND for glory

... even us whom He has called....

You see it don't you? predestination only applies to the mercy not to the wrath.

Your last statement is not scripture, doesn't look like scripture, doesn't taste like scripture ... it is the workings out of human scholarship.

 

[Evmur]

The Remnant is misunderstood.

The purpose of the remnant is to keep alive the covenant.... until the whole turn back to Jahweh God. This is shown by Elijah at Mt Carmel. In the subsequent ministries of Elisha and King Jehu the whole nation turned back to God.

 

[Moses_Young]

Repkacement theology at its finest.

No one is being replaced. God is grafting the believing Gentiles into the vine, along with all the believing Jews (the remnant), so all branches are joined to the true Vine. All others are cut off.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Abraham was granted the gift of faith, it was accounted to him in the same way righteousness is imputed through the faith that God grants as an instrument to receive it.

Rom 4:9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

Men are spiritually dead and first need to be born again by grace to be able to see the kingdom of God (John 3:3) let alone believe or choose it.

The process that God uses to grant this faith is though the Gospel being heard.

Act 16:14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

This is in error

Abraham was not granted the gift of faith. Abraham chose to trust God. and because of this faith, he was accounted or granted righteousness.

romans 4: 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Abraham was accounted rightious because he had faith. And because oe was accounted righteous, he was born again,

Men are dead amen, The wage of sin is death.

But man will nto be made alive until that which killed them is removed. The act of removing the penalty is called justification. Or being declaired or imputed righteousness.

And as this passage clearly states, that is done THROUGH faith.

Faith comes first. THEN righteousness is added, and new birth is accomplished

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God's choice or man's choice?

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

Eph_1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Abraham chose to believe God

and because of abrahams CHOICE. God credit or accounted him as righteous.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No one is being replaced. God is grafting the believing Gentiles into the vine, along with all the believing Jews (the remnant), so all branches are joined to the true Vine. All others are cut off.

But Gods promise to the nation still stands.

Replacement theology says God is done with Israel and replaced her with the church. this is error

 

[Evmur]

But Gods promise to the nation still stands.

Replacement theology says God is done with Israel and replaced her with the church. this is error

Yes we are grafted into THEIR vine, and the branches which were grafted out will be grafted back in.

Folks say "uh oh only if they believe" but they will believe, they will look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him. Israel will be saved at the coming of the Lord.

We are made co inheritors and fellow citizens of their commonwealth.

 

[Evmur]

This is in error

Abraham was not granted the gift of faith. Abraham chose to trust God. and because of this faith, he was accounted or granted righteousness.

romans 4: 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Abraham was accounted rightious because he had faith. And because oe was accounted righteous, he was born again,

Men are dead amen, The wage of sin is death.

But man will nto be made alive until that which killed them is removed. The act of removing the penalty is called justification. Or being declaired or imputed righteousness.

And as this passage clearly states, that is done THROUGH faith.

Faith comes first. THEN righteousness is added, and new birth is accomplished

why did Lot not choose? or Big Chief Sitting Bull?

They were not given the choice, the promise ... the power to believe comes with the word of promise.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

why did Lot not choose? or Big Chief Sitting Bull?

They were not given the choice, the promise ... the power to believe comes with the word of promise.

Who said Lot did not chose? Or are you spoofing calvinism?

 

[Evmur]

Who said Lot did not chose? Or are you spoofing calvinism?

I knew that would get yuh.

I believe the sovereign grace stream of theology without Calvin's boo boo. Lot was backslidden and he was saved through the intersession of Abraham.

 

[John146]

No one is being replaced. God is grafting the believing Gentiles into the vine, along with all the believing Jews (the remnant), so all branches are joined to the true Vine. All others are cut off.

The post that I addressed was definitely replacement theology. God is not through dealing with his people Israel. The new covenant is for them. He will fulfill it at his 2nd coming.

 

[Cameron143]

The post that I addressed was definitely replacement theology. God is not through dealing with his people Israel. The new covenant is for them. He will fulfill it at his 2nd coming.

The new covenant has already been fulfilled. Jews, like everyone else, enter in by faith.

 

[John146]

The new covenant has already been fulfilled. Jews, like everyone else, enter in by faith.

Israel has been blinded for now. When Jesus returns as their promised Messiah, he will fulfill his covenant with them and take away their sins. For now, they are enemies concerning the gospel. You should also read and study Hebrews 8-9.

Romans 11:
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 

[Cameron143]

Israel has been blinded for now. When Jesus returns as their promised Messiah, he will fulfill his covenant with them and take away their sins. For now, they are enemies concerning the gospel. You should also read and study Hebrews 8-9.

Romans 11:
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Written to a first century audience. Why wasn't it fulfilled then? Didn't a Deliverer already come out of Zion? Weren't sins taken away at the cross?

Just out of curiosity, what covenant do you believe the passage you cited falls under?

 

[studier]

Abraham was granted the gift of faith, it was accounted to him in the same way righteousness is imputed through the faith that God grants as an instrument to receive it.

Rom 4:9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

This ignores my response and repeats what you already said.

NKJ Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and [it] (Abraham's believing God) was accounted (logizomai) to him for righteousness."

NKJ Romans 4:5-6 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (belief upon God - believing God) is accounted (logizomai) for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes accounts (logizomai) righteousness apart from works:

God spoke > Abraham believed God/upon God > God accounted Abraham's believing God/believing upon God for righteousness.

Per these verses, God accounts (gives) righteousness. God does not account (give) faith.

In Rom4:9 the last clause, especially based upon the context of Abraham believing God & believing upon God, is saying this: "...For we are saying the (This article is pointing us back to what is said about Abraham believing upon God and what God said to him. An article like this in context can also be translated as "his") faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

This article is important. To negate it as some English translations tend to do creates problems. Some English translations are picking up what this verse in context is saying:

NET Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness then for the circumcision or also for the uncircumcision? For we say, "faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness."

NIV Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.

NJB Romans 4:9 Is this blessing only for the circumcised, or is it said of the uncircumcised as well? Well, we said of Abraham that his faith was reckoned to him as uprightness.

The only thing we're told here (from Genesis) in context is that God spoke to Abraham then Abraham believed God then God accounted righteousness to Abraham.

Faith is being accounted = taken into account = considered here. Faith is not being gifted.