Luke 17 - Where are they taken?

[KJV1611]

I present the other two paragraphs, for the readers' consideration (coupled with the other portion of the quote I'd put earlier):

[quoting Gaebelein]

"The chief question is: Did our Lord go to Hades in a disembodied state? In fact, all depends on the question of what is the true meaning of the sentence, “quickened by the Spirit.” Now, according to the interpretations of the men who teach that the Lord visited Hades, the spirits in prison, during the interval between His death and the morning of the third day, He descended into these regions while His dead body was still in the grave. Therefore, these teachers claim that His human spirit was quickened, which necessitates that the spirit which the dying Christ commended into the Father’s hands had also died. This is not only incorrect doctrine, but it is an unsound and evil doctrine. Was the holy humanity of our Lord, body, soul and spirit dead? A thousands times No! Only His body died; that is the only part of Him which could die. The text makes this clear: “He was put to death in flesh,” that is, His body. There could be no quickening of His spirit, for His spirit was alive. Furthermore, the word quickening, as we learn from Ephesians 1:20 and Ephesians 2:5-6, by comparing the two passages, applies to His physical resurrection, it is the quickening of His body. To teach that the Lord Jesus was made alive before His resurrection is unscriptural. The “quickened by the Spirit” means the raising up of His body. His human spirit needed no quickening; it was His body and only His body. And the Spirit who did the quickening is not His own spirit, that is, His human spirit, but the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11 speaks of the Spirit as raising Jesus from among the dead.

"We have shown that it was an impossibility that Christ was in any way quickened while His body was not yet raised, hence a visit to Hades is positively excluded between His death and resurrection. There is only another alternative. If it is true that He descended into these regions, then it must have been after His resurrection. But that is equally untenable. The so-called “Apostle’s Creed” puts the descent between His death and resurrection and all the other theorists follow this view. We have shown what the passage does not mean. It cannot mean a visit of the disembodied Christ to Hades, for it speaks of the quickening by the Spirit, and that means His physical resurrection."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on 2 Peter 3 [source: BibleHub]


_____________



Disagree.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

You are right and thanks for the correction, his spirit did not die and the verse does not say that it did as I made it seem... not enough thought on my part.

The verse is saying that THE SAME SPIRIT that raised the body of Christ is THE SAME SPIRIT that sent him to preach to spirits in prison.

 

[KJV1611]

What if Hades is a state rather than a place?
Jesus did come down into the grave. Aka state of physical death. "Abode of the dead" can be a state. One may abide in Christ, does this mean that Christ is a physical location? Even though Christ manifested also physically, and graves also exist as physical manifestations.
Interpreting these concepts as simplistic literal "areas" reminds me more of Dante's Inferno or ancient pagan writers.
It's adding preconceived notions to the Scriptures, which might take away from what are we able to see.
I mean I am surely also at fault. When we are bombarded with these imaginations since childhood.

I think it was a place because

I present the other two paragraphs, for the readers' consideration (coupled with the other portion of the quote I'd put earlier):

[quoting Gaebelein]

"The chief question is: Did our Lord go to Hades in a disembodied state? In fact, all depends on the question of what is the true meaning of the sentence, “quickened by the Spirit.” Now, according to the interpretations of the men who teach that the Lord visited Hades, the spirits in prison, during the interval between His death and the morning of the third day, He descended into these regions while His dead body was still in the grave. Therefore, these teachers claim that His human spirit was quickened, which necessitates that the spirit which the dying Christ commended into the Father’s hands had also died. This is not only incorrect doctrine, but it is an unsound and evil doctrine. Was the holy humanity of our Lord, body, soul and spirit dead? A thousands times No! Only His body died; that is the only part of Him which could die. The text makes this clear: “He was put to death in flesh,” that is, His body. There could be no quickening of His spirit, for His spirit was alive. Furthermore, the word quickening, as we learn from Ephesians 1:20 and Ephesians 2:5-6, by comparing the two passages, applies to His physical resurrection, it is the quickening of His body. To teach that the Lord Jesus was made alive before His resurrection is unscriptural. The “quickened by the Spirit” means the raising up of His body. His human spirit needed no quickening; it was His body and only His body. And the Spirit who did the quickening is not His own spirit, that is, His human spirit, but the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11 speaks of the Spirit as raising Jesus from among the dead.

"We have shown that it was an impossibility that Christ was in any way quickened while His body was not yet raised, hence a visit to Hades is positively excluded between His death and resurrection. There is only another alternative. If it is true that He descended into these regions, then it must have been after His resurrection. But that is equally untenable. The so-called “Apostle’s Creed” puts the descent between His death and resurrection and all the other theorists follow this view. We have shown what the passage does not mean. It cannot mean a visit of the disembodied Christ to Hades, for it speaks of the quickening by the Spirit, and that means His physical resurrection."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on 2 Peter 3 [source: BibleHub]


_____________



Disagree.

I forgot to add this on my last reply but we know for a fact that Christ was in hell/hades/prison/heart of the earth for three days.

Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

What was he doing there if not preaching to them as 1 Peter 3:19 says?
Why would he go there if it weren't for that purpose?

 

[KJV1611]

What if Hades is a state rather than a place?
Jesus did come down into the grave. Aka state of physical death. "Abode of the dead" can be a state. One may abide in Christ, does this mean that Christ is a physical location? Even though Christ manifested also physically, and graves also exist as physical manifestations.
Interpreting these concepts as simplistic literal "areas" reminds me more of Dante's Inferno or ancient pagan writers.
It's adding preconceived notions to the Scriptures, which might take away from what are we able to see.
I mean I am surely also at fault. When we are bombarded with these imaginations since childhood.

I think it's a place because Jesus went there and people were there.

 

[1ofthem]

I may be wrong or just totally simple minded, but I can't see how any of these parables are hard to follow or so complex as some say.

Just my opinion, but I think that many people are diving way too deep into a parable and losing sight of the message. In one thread, I saw where someone was talking about the parable of the wheat and tares and drawing some kind of conclusion to two gatherings in which it does not even suggest in my opinion. It's talking about harvest time (judgment) and to me the main point of that is to leave them alone and let God separate them, or we might pull up some wheat trying to weed out the garden. To me, the main point of that is that God does the separating...but then there are others going in to all this nonsense about who is going to be gathered first and taken away, or whatever.


This was even going on in Paul's time. There were some who had delved too deep into the resurrection and said that it had already came to pass. Paul instructed to avoid them. 2 Timothy 2

Same goes with Matt. 24 and 25. I can't find anywhere in the Bible that suggests this has already happened. Not seen or read anywhere that Jesus has already split the eastern sky with all his angles and the sun was darkened and the trumpet sounded and he gathered together his elect from the four corners of the earth. I'm pretty sure this would have been documented somewhere in history had it already happened. So I'm gonna assume that it hasn't happened yet.

I'm pretty sure that Matt. 24 -25 are instructions of getting prepared for this event and informing us of what is going to happen then. Like I said, I may be wrong or just simple minded, but unless someone can show me where any of those things I mentioned has already happened then I'm sure they haven't happened yet.

 

[Victor1999]

I always understood this chapter as speaking of Christ's return and that one will be accepted into God's kingdom and another won't. When asked "where", He told them a sign of His second coming.

 

[KJV1611]

This does not state before-after relationship, or that it was performed only during those 3 days.
Unless I'm missing something, it just states that by the same Spirit that raised Him from the dead, he went and preached to the spirits in prison. I looked at Strong's concordance, there is after in NIV but I believe it's coming from church traditions. I looked in my native language, direct translation also renders it to mean "by which" like KJV (in spite of Orthodox church tradition here).

You're right it it does not state before or after but other verses do state that Jesus went to hell.

Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

A seplechure on top of the earth is not the heart of the earth also the book of Jonah tells us that this place is called hell.

Jon_2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

We know that Jesus preached to the spirits in hell and we know Jesus was in hell.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I think it's a place because Jesus went there and people were there.

That sounds like circular evidence.

There are problems if we take Hades as a place.
The first problem - Jesus was dead. He gave up the (Holy) ghost, His body was pierced, and His soul died because He became sin for us. So triple dead, body, soul and spirit. Now, which part of Jesus was then preaching in Hades?
To make this worse, Jesus is the Word of God.
So if Word of God was dead in Sheol, who communicated the message?
The Bible teaches that the dead see not, hear not, speak not, have no knowledge, know nothing, and so forth...
(This brings up another problem, how would the listeners hear when they are dead and "know nothing", and seems to seriously discourage taking this so literally, and rather talks about the spiritually dead)
If we have to challenge basic premises of the Bible such as Jesus being really dead during those 3 days, or ask ourselves questions such as "How dead is dead?", taking Sheol as a place calls for rethinking.
I could continue, but let's focus on this for now.

Regarding the reference in Jonah foreshadowing Jesus being buried:
There is no Scriptural evidence to confirm that "the heart of the earth" is a specific location.
But there is multiple Bible evidence which suggests that this is a figure of speech:
"heart of the seas" in Jonah 2:3, also "heart of the heavens"/"midst of heaven" in Deut 4:11
Matthew Poole's Commentary
...and the midst or the heart of it is not only that which is strictly and properly the middle part, but that which is within it, though but a little way, in which sense places or persons or things are said to be in the heart of the sea, Exodus 15:8 Proverbs 23:34 Ezekiel 28:2; and Christ in the heart of the earth, Matthew 12:40.
It is reasonable to take this a poetic way to say "underground", which would be apt as Jesus was enclosed in a cave.

As to, what was Jesus doing there then? Well, I think it was not a location, but a state of being dead, imo, which clears up the said problems. There was also the location of the literal cave for the body, so Jonah's foreshadowing isn't contradicted. I've wrote in post #116 that preaching is not directly tied to Jesus being in the grave (people add to this verse what is not there because they take Sheol as some spiritual dimension place), and about when did actually Jesus preach, at least what I believe so far.

 

[KJV1611]

Oops, I meant "not by the blood of bulls and goats"


I am studying now about the gathering, but it will take me a while to reply to this post of yours because I want to look at some things in the whole Bible.
Will write later, hope I am not intrusive on the thread. I am aware that a lot of people think differently.

You are definitely not intrusive, and thank you for your contributions! I'm making an eight hour drive today and getting ready for it right now so I'll be in and out for a while and then out for a while.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Same goes with Matt. 24 and 25. I can't find anywhere in the Bible that suggests this has already happened. Not seen or read anywhere that Jesus has already split the eastern sky with all his angles and the sun was darkened and the trumpet sounded and he gathered together his elect from the four corners of the earth. I'm pretty sure this would have been documented somewhere in history had it already happened. So I'm gonna assume that it hasn't happened yet.
I'm pretty sure that Matt. 24 -25 are instructions of getting prepared for this event and informing us of what is going to happen then. Like I said, I may be wrong or just simple minded, but unless someone can show me where any of those things I mentioned has already happened then I'm sure they haven't happened yet.

Right. It hasn't happened yet.

And the only reason I point out what the parables are saying (among other passages), is because many do not grasp the parallel time-slot of the following two passages (thus they attach an incorrect application to the Olivet Discourse):

Matthew 24:29-31 -

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light,
and the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a GREAT trumpet call, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to the ends thereof [i.e. 'from the extremities'].


Isaiah 27:12-13 -

12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [<--this is DISTINCT from "our Rapture," in which WE will be gathered "AS ONE" (and to an altogether distinct location!)] 13 And in that day a great ram's horn [/a GREAT trumpet] will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.


(these are not speaking of our Rapture, per context [but instead, His Second Coming to the earth]... and many folks mis-apply it in just such a way, making it to be speaking of our Rapture when it does not)

 

[KJV1611]

How are you making this connection to Matthew 25?

I can't see anywhere in Matthew 25 where he is talking about gathering them out of hell there. Why would Jesus be preaching, telling others to get ready for something that they would have no part in (if he was talking about going to Hell and getting the ones that were already dead)? To me Matthew 24 and 25 is all about the end time and judgment. I have heard a few say that Matthew 24 has already happened, but I don't think that it has. The judgement has not come yet and I can't find anywhere in scripture where it has.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

When Jesus was resurrected he came in his glory and MANY of the old testament saints were raised with him (angels or messengers). I'm not saying that this is what verse 31 is saying, I'm only bringing it up as a possibility.

Those in hell were judged, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Honestly I shouldn't have brought it up because it is a topic all to itself.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] me thou shalt be in the paradise.'" Lk23:43

"And having called out in a loud voice, Jesus said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit." And having said this, He breathed His last." Lk23:46

 

[KJV1611]

I always understood this chapter as speaking of Christ's return and that one will be accepted into God's kingdom and another won't. When asked "where", He told them a sign of His second coming.

Thank you for your reply. The question is which return. Jesus returned after his death - the resurrection and he is coming again - the second advent.

This is one of the reasons I started this thread was to bring attention to and better understand (me understand) the fact that some verses of prophecy are talking about his coming again - the resurrection and some are talking about his return - the second advent.

 

[garee]

Joseph foreshadows Christ's preaching in the prison.

Joseph was cast into a pit with NO WATER by his brethren. He then went to the prison where he interpreted the dreams of the baker and the butler.

Gen 40:13 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thine head, and restore thee unto thy place: and thou shalt deliver Pharaoh's cup into his hand, after the former manner when thou wast his butler.

The baker (representing those who received the message) was restored to his position within THREE DAYS.

Gen 40:19 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.

The butler (representing those that did not receive the message) hanged on a tree (CURSED is any man who hangs on a tree) within THREE DAYS.

We know from this foreshadowing that Christ went to the prison for THREE DAYS and preached the message of God to the prisoners. We also know that the ones who received the message were RESTORED and those who did not receive the message were JUDGED and PUNISHED.

it was a different kind of prison .


The prison in which Christ spoke of preaching was a temporal holding place until the trial of Christ as the bosom of Abraham .The unsen place of God. The grave were opened and they enter heaven the city of Christ.

 

[KJV1611]

Mat_10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I have to make an 8 hour road trip today so I'll be away or maybe in out all day today but I would like for everyone to ponder Matthew 12:23. Jesus is talking directly to the 12, not to people 2000 years down the road. He said THOSE 12 will not have gone over the cities of Israel UNTIL the Son of man HAS COME.

I think that verse alone (there are many more) is enough evidence to say that every time the bible talks about Jesus returning it is not always talking about the second advent.

See you guys later!

 

[SoulWeaver]

Another big problem with taking Hades as a place...

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (them being in a place of bliss)

However, if you propose that Hades is a spiritual dimension place, you also subscribe to the idea that these spirits are just dead or sleeping, and "waiting"; then Jesus comes and "preaches" to them for 3 days and AT THAT TIME condemns the wicked, while taking the righteous out to Heaven...

As Jesus tells us here, the wicked are being tormented, and the righteous are in bliss. This is to be taken so, even if Jesus told it as a parable. Apparently, they have already been rewarded according to their deeds after they died.

And the final nail in the coffin:
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

So why would then Jesus "preach" to them, if they didn't hear Moses and the prophets?
And from the whole story, seems that Lazarus and Abraham don't need to be preached to either.
It is apparent that they have all been rewarded according to their doings.

 

[KJV1611]

Another big problem with taking Hades as a place...

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (them being in a place of bliss)

However, if you propose that Hades is a spiritual dimension place, you also subscribe to the idea that these spirits are just dead or sleeping, and "waiting"; then Jesus comes and "preaches" to them for 3 days and AT THAT TIME condemns the wicked, while taking the righteous out to Heaven...

As Jesus tells us here, the wicked are being tormented, and the righteous are in bliss. This is to be taken so, even if Jesus told it as a parable. Apparently, they have already been rewarded according to their deeds after they died.

And the final nail in the coffin:
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

So why would then Jesus "preach" to them, if they didn't hear Moses and the prophets?
On the other side, from the whole story seems that Lazarus and Abraham don't need to be preached to either.

Those who wouldn't listen to the "one who rose from the dead" was Jews and it was talking about those Jews who rejected Christ. The spirits that Christ ministered to in hell were those during the time of the flood... BEFORE the law came.

Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 

[Absolutely]

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luk 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

The context above is "the kingdom of God that comes without observation". Verse 22 is speaking to the time when Christ would be crucified.

All still within the context of "the kingdom that comes without observance". Nothing here about the second advent.

Ok so we all know the kingdom,Jesus is within us,we are his temple,....

And so quickly means what?
That he came into us and so you have both dynamics (came,quickly)settled to make a point?

 

[Absolutely]

Parables are a story within a story.
The rich man and laz actually happened.
Not a parable.
They were not flood victims exclusively.
The wicked man that was denied resurrection was hypothetical.
All the rich man could do was warn of hell.
Jesus resurrection was new life. A life message. Not a warning of hell.
A overlap of truth in this case (the jews rejecting Jesus resurrection) is not a monumental doctrine establisher

 

[SoulWeaver]

Those who wouldn't listen to the "one who rose from the dead" was Jews and it was talking about those Jews who rejected Christ. The spirits that Christ ministered to in hell were those during the time of the flood... BEFORE the law came.

Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Fair point. I do stand corrected in the sense of the premise you're making, but that still does not solve the previous problem of Jesus being too dead to do anything there, and the hearers also being completely dead. The Bible teaching that the dead do not see, hear, speak, or know of anything.

Romans 5:13 does not support the case for literal Sheol in the light of the chapter 2, but quite the opposite, it states that God judges all, Jews with the law of Moses, and others with the law on their hearts:

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

This chapter expounds on the principles by which God universally and equally judges people, even though not everybody received the law.

As in:
Job 15:6 Thine own mouth condemneth thee, and not I: yea, thine own lips testify against thee.
Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

This is judgment.

 

[garee]

You're right it it does not state before or after but other verses do state that Jesus went to hell.

Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

A seplechure on top of the earth is not the heart of the earth also the book of Jonah tells us that this place is called hell.

Jon_2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

We know that Jesus preached to the spirits in hell and we know Jesus was in hell.

Jesus does not preach the gospel to those who are no longer above ground. It is appointed for all men to die once and then comes the execution of His judgment .

The preaching is the calling out. . . rise from the temporal holding cell and enter the mansion the ressurection.

Hell is not a place. It is a living suffering of the pangs or afflictions of death. The wrath of God being revealed from heaven .

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.Jonas2:2

The prison is the temporal grave for those Old testament saints who fell asleep in Christ. A temporal holding cell that could not be emptied until the trial was over when Christ stood in the judgment seat in our place. In that way we have all stood there and are not to judge each other as in double jeopardy..

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Christ said it is finished the graves were opened they were moved from that temporal place to the new Jerusalem where they remain dead asleep waiting for the wake up call on the last day .