Loss of salvation???

[studier]

I believe the word, "ὁμολογέω" in verse 9 is in contrast to the word "λέγω" in verse 8.

My concern here is that the 2 words are not contrastive. What they're being related to is.

"ὁμολογέω", which is a compound word derived from "λέγω" and literaerally means, “to say the same thing” per the abridged version of the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

• Although I've found it helpful to understand compound words, it's not always best practice to use such a literal definition literally based upon its compounded parts.
• TDNT non-abridged has a lengthy discussion on homologeō. I didn't look at the abridged version.
• BDAG provides the following main headings of lexical definitions (we can see the "same speak" concept):
  • 1. to commit oneself to do someth. for someone, promise, assure
  • 2. to share a common view or be of common mind about a matter, agree
  • 3. to concede that something is factual or true, grant, admit, confess
  • 4. to acknowledge someth., ordinarily in public, acknowledge, claim, profess, praise

If we say we have no sin" in verse 8 is contrasted with "If we admit we are sinners" in verse 9.

I see what you're saying, but it seems to be pushing the language which is very simple:

• The object of the verb is: the sins [of] us - if we homolegeō our sins
• There are other words that could have been used to state that we homolegeō that we are sinners.
  • I think this is what's being stated in 1John1:8 and this verse doesn't need a contrast because it's built into the verse: if we say we have no sin then we are liars - so we do have sin - we are sinners.
  • So, 1John1:8 we're sinners > then what do we do when we commit sins = 1John1:9 = we acknowledge/confess/admit them = we agree with God that they are sins > 1John1:10 = disagreement with God about sin when we have sinned.

I agree with Dan that it is impossible to enumerate all our sins, and 1 John 1:9 is not telling us we must do so. It is telling us that we must agree with God's declaration that we are sinners in need of a Savior and that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient for us to be right with God.

IMO @mailmandan has gotten into some hyperbole which is not a good practice in interpreting.

• Enumerating all sins first of all is pushing the envelope especially for a young believer but including the growing and even the mature believer. Since homolegeō is also a legal word, I think reasonable best efforts is in view here with the perfect and merciful understanding judge knowing all the facts.
• John is teaching about a dynamic walk in the light together with God and with one another in which God is teaching and training His Children about sins and enabling them to grow out of them.
• The Spirit is teaching and training to judge both good and bad (Heb5:14) and in a dynamic walk with God we hear from Him about committed sins and part of the walk in the light is to acknowledge them to Him. The last part of 1John1:9 is taught by some as the provision of God for cleansing His Children from even unknown sins (all unrighteousness) provided the condition of agreeing with Him on known sins is taking place - IOW the walk in the light is taking place as directed.
• As time goes on this provision becomes less and less necessary due to the growth process taking place in the walk in the light with Him and one another to and beyond maturity.
• James 5:14-16 applies a similar command to believers with one another in the context of healing from suffering and sickness that may be from having done sins.

 

[Kroogz]

I was very recently chasing around through Scripture the watering concept. I've long held that those placing the Foundation in our time are not doing a "master builder" job. Nor IMO are many who are standing front and center as builders.

A question.

On another forum there are a couple of folks that say the builder (Paul/Teachers) is saved as if through fire if they fail. And the wood, hay and stubble that is burned up are............PEOPLE that they failed to "teach" properly.



Is this your understanding/interpretation?

 

[studier]

A question.

On another forum there are a couple of folks that say the builder (Paul/Teachers) is saved as if through fire if they fail. And the wood, hay and stubble that is burned up are............PEOPLE that they failed to "teach" properly.



Is this your understanding/interpretation?

No. I see the poor building materials as poor teaching and leading. Paul says he placed the only foundation = Jesus = Christ. Then that foundation gets built upon. I've always prayed for good teaching and to be able to provide the same.

So, I see the poor materials as ultimately affecting both the builder and the built upon.

The interesting thing for me is that I think in a sense the builders and the built upon all share some responsibility.

For example, there are several commands in Scripture not to be deceived. And we all in Christ have the Spirit to lead us and guide us. I foresee the perfect Judge with perfect knowledge of all of the facts even to our depths to be able to precisely, fairly, mercifully and righteously determine where responsibilities were held to and were disregarded.

I'll also give you from experiential reasoning. Along the way, I have had several times where I had the prompting that it was time for me to move on. At first it was difficult for various reasons. Over time it became less difficult. In my earlier times it was always related to noticing things in the Word that kept seeming different than what was being taught. One too many checks in my spirit and I moved on.

I see 1Cor3 mainly as @Scribe said. Its focus is on God's coworkers. Then as I agreed with you, I do not discount the responsibility of the Body with all of its gifts. Nor do I discount individual responsibility. I think it's all ultimately factored in by the One with far greater capacities to handle it all than us, to say the least.

 

[Genez]

I believe the word, "ὁμολογέω" in verse 9 is in contrast to the word "λέγω" in verse 8. "ὁμολογέω", which is a compound word derived from "λέγω" and literaerally means, “to say the same thing” per the abridged version of the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. therefore, "If we say we have no sin" in verse 8 is contrasted with "If we admit we are sinners" in verse 9.

I agree with Dan that it is impossible to enumerate all our sins, and 1 John 1:9 is not telling us we must do so. It is telling us that we must agree with God's declaration that we are sinners in need of a Savior and that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient for us to be right with God.

It can mean.. 'to say the same thing.'
It also meant in the Roman courts to cite a case.

Here is how the meaning of saying the same thing would apply to confessing a sin.

Amos 3:3, says....

"Do two walk together, unless they have agreed?"​

So? If I call it a sin, the same thing that God calls it a sin?
We agree!
In that manner, we regain fellowship and begin walking in the Spirit again!

"Do two walk together, unless they have agreed?"​

grace and peace .......

 

[homwardbound]

Charging the subject just for edification purposes of course but have you noticed that 1Cor 3:1-3 that you quote describes them as carnal when they strive between each other over whether Paul, Apollos, or Peter is the better teacher? It does not say drunkards are carnal Christians. Then when it talks about works passing through the fire and some wood hay and stubble not surviving but they would still be saved yet not receive a reward and suffer some loss, that it is in the context of the teachings, and ministry of Paul, Apollos, Peter or any other minister. So we as ministers are to be careful about our teachings that we are preaching Christ. This is important
Too many have misunderstood and teach this passage all about a Christian who is a drunkard but that's not what Paul called carnal. He said drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God. In this passage where he says they are carnal he says it's because they are striving over favorite preachers but their jealousy and envy is NOT the wood hay and stubble that he refers to. The wood hay and stubble and being saved but suffering loss is not being applied to the carnal striving jealous Corinthians it is applied to Paul, Apollos,Peter or any other minister who must be careful that they build upon no other foundation than Jesus Christ, and to be careful that what they teach will receive a reward.

I see to trust God Father and Son as Won for me. God took care of the problem all by God in Son once for us all giving reconciliation to all first by Son. then Son as risen new life is offered in Father's Spirit and Truth, the Holy Spirit to learn from and do right willingly also
At least for me it started with, sealed to see and stand in this fact from you in risen Son.
Father, Thank you for Son Jesus the reconciling of any and every sin that I can commit or have committed. I believe, you do love me and all people, born after Adam and Eve, your creation that got corrupted in "Unbelief" and ate from that tree of knowledge of good and evil.
You have continued in mercy, love and truth, stood with this mistake made of the first Adam and saw, us having the knowledge, messing it up, everyone of us, at least me I see me did this, too. Thank you for now standing in the second Adam, Jesus for us all to remain as forgiven by you through him. Woe is me, Thank you. Now I need to learn this love you have offered everyone through risen Son, I am willing, I trust you to teach me new, thank you.
thank you for Son Jesus as risen where you give us new life in Love and mercy to us all to choose to change in belief to your done work of Son, done once on that cross for everyone to turn to you, to believe you and learn new from you in your Holy Spirit of Truth =, thank you
If I am growing up in maturing, I am stagnant am I or you not?

 

[homwardbound]

It's always interested me how so many, including many teachers, do not see the builders being the focus in that part of 1Cor.

It's also fascinating how the fleshliness of [still immature] Christians is presented in 1Cor and how forums like these bring out example after example of the same fact. In these days the names have been changed to more recent historical names and by inference to every denomination teaching something different. 'Well, my pastor says...' Camps-based soldiers.

the Doctrine will never change
Christ the Messiah is risen after first his one time only death in that shed blood took away sin of this world in Father's sight for us to be made new in love and mercy too, thank you to all, not a few as in first birth, flesh nature can only love those that love them back, I know this in me the old man

 

[studier]

flesh nature can only love those that love them back

Just repeating to say how much immaturity we see and do on these threads.

 

[NOV25]

Just repeating to say how much immaturity we see and do on these threads.

The many and the few, the majority and the minority. The majority of those who profess Christ will hear those dreaded words, I never knew you, while the minority will hear, well done.

The world is filled with billions who take the Lord’s name in vain, they are the majority in every country, state, town, congregation and even forums like this-nothing we can do but tell the truth in love.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

My concern here is that the 2 words are not contrastive. What they're being related to is.

• Although I've found it helpful to understand compound words, it's not always best practice to use such a literal definition literally based upon its compounded parts.
• TDNT non-abridged has a lengthy discussion on homologeō. I didn't look at the abridged version.
• BDAG provides the following main headings of lexical definitions (we can see the "same speak" concept):
  • 1. to commit oneself to do someth. for someone, promise, assure
  • 2. to share a common view or be of common mind about a matter, agree
  • 3. to concede that something is factual or true, grant, admit, confess
  • 4. to acknowledge someth., ordinarily in public, acknowledge, claim, profess, praise

I see what you're saying, but it seems to be pushing the language which is very simple:

• The object of the verb is: the sins [of] us - if we homolegeō our sins
• There are other words that could have been used to state that we homolegeō that we are sinners.
  • I think this is what's being stated in 1John1:8 and this verse doesn't need a contrast because it's built into the verse: if we say we have no sin then we are liars - so we do have sin - we are sinners.
  • So, 1John1:8 we're sinners > then what do we do when we commit sins = 1John1:9 = we acknowledge/confess/admit them = we agree with God that they are sins > 1John1:10 = disagreement with God about sin when we have sinned.

IMO @mailmandan has gotten into some hyperbole which is not a good practice in interpreting.

• Enumerating all sins first of all is pushing the envelope especially for a young believer but including the growing and even the mature believer. Since homolegeō is also a legal word, I think reasonable best efforts is in view here with the perfect and merciful understanding judge knowing all the facts.
• John is teaching about a dynamic walk in the light together with God and with one another in which God is teaching and training His Children about sins and enabling them to grow out of them.
• The Spirit is teaching and training to judge both good and bad (Heb5:14) and in a dynamic walk with God we hear from Him about committed sins and part of the walk in the light is to acknowledge them to Him. The last part of 1John1:9 is taught by some as the provision of God for cleansing His Children from even unknown sins (all unrighteousness) provided the condition of agreeing with Him on known sins is taking place - IOW the walk in the light is taking place as directed.
• As time goes on this provision becomes less and less necessary due to the growth process taking place in the walk in the light with Him and one another to and beyond maturity.
• James 5:14-16 applies a similar command to believers with one another in the context of healing from suffering and sickness that may be from having done sins.

I don't find much disagreement with your analysis, but I am still uncertain of your position on the view of some that 1 John 1:9 requires "confession of sins" as a pre-condition for God's forgiveness and cleansing. Dan can speak for himself, but I think he and I agree that His forgiveness and cleansing is not doled out piecemeal as we confess each sin daily. It appears you are saying the opposite -- that our "reasonable best efforts" to confess all our sins are regularly required or else He witholds His forgiveness and cleansing.

 

[studier]

The many and the few, the majority and the minority. The majority of those who profess Christ will hear those dreaded words, I never knew you, while the minority will hear, well done.

The world is filled with billions who take the Lord’s name in vain, they are the majority in every country, state, town, congregation and even forums like this-nothing we can do but tell the truth in love.

While having concern for those you speak of, we also need to have concern for our own Household and all of the fleshliness/immaturity within. I think these threads are a combination of them both, but maybe more of the latter.

 

[Gideon300]

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

No. They can lose the experience and blessings of their being born again. Eternal life is just that, eternal. The cross deals with the old nature and the resurrection of Christ gives us new life.

We can lose fellowship but not relationship. And yes, if we backslide, we need to confess our sin and so be restored. Many Christians are on a cycle of sin, defeat, failure and repentance. They get back on their feet only to stumble again. One day (hopefully) they see the futility of such a life. Then they will take God at His word and decide that God's grace really is sufficient. They will agree with God that the old self is dead and buried. Then they will see that they rose with Christ when He arose from the grave. They will live by the faith of the Son of God instead of their own thoughts and feelings.

That is the life of Victory. It does not mean that we never sin or fail. It does mean that the vicious cycle that Paul went through (Romans 7) comes to an end and we ourselves declare, "Thanks be to God, through Christ!"

 

[homwardbound]

Just repeating to say how much immaturity we see and do on these threads.

I see many are learning new through discussing and reading for themselves, as well as their are those as well that know the truth and refuse to put down the hammer to keep people coming to their place of worship
Okay, Christ is preached, whether sincerely or not, I glory in Christ being preached why?
Because I know, (not ever how) God comes through for all to know truth and then decide to stand in trust to God or not sincerely or haphazardly wanting self gain and sit in Moses's seat

I see where the Bible talks of needing maturity as in Hebrews 5:12, through Chapter 6:3
Either one will be in doubt to this truth since it states If God will permit, when truth is in truth translation that word of Greek translation means Since also not just if
I see it to me to read Since
I believe and have been growing new in this gift and thank God for this love and mercy of Son for us all to believe or not, thanks
A tree is always identified by its fruit, and I see many fake trees too, thank you

 

[studier]

I don't find much disagreement with your analysis, but I am still uncertain of your position on the view of some that 1 John 1:9 requires "confession of sins" as a pre-condition for God's forgiveness and cleansing. Dan can speak for himself, but I think he and I agree that His forgiveness and cleansing is not doled out piecemeal as we confess each sin daily. It appears you are saying the opposite -- that our "reasonable best efforts" to confess all our sins are regularly required or else He witholds His forgiveness and cleansing.

I think you are reading me correctly.

The way I read those Scriptures, they are mainly speaking of our walk in the light with Him. Part of that dynamic walk is to be and remain in agreement with Him and admit when we have disagreed with Him.

The conditional clauses are all 3rd class which provides for do or don't potentiality - if we do - if we don't.

So:

• IF we are walking in the light
  • Then we're being constantly cleansed
    • I think this is covering being sanctified from all kinds of defilements from the world and the cleansing and perfecting of the conscience spoken of in Hebrews (2Cor7:1; Eph5:26; Heb9)
• IF we say that we do not have sin (are not sinners/sinful)
  • Then we are not walking in the light & not being constantly cleansed
• IF we admit our sins (when we do sin)
  • Then He forgives our admitted sin(s) and cleanses from all unrighteousness
    • I think this cleansing from all unrighteousness ties this admission requirement back to 1:7 and remaining in the walk in the light with Him and with one another. IOW, apart from this admission when we know we have sinned, we are not walking in the light with Him and this forgiveness and cleansing is not taking place.
    • From here we go into the disciplinary instructions for wayward children.
      • In this regard, I think at minimum we must consider the perfect knowledge of a perfect Father and how we might think we can exploit this admission provision and get away with things, but we cannot.
• IF we say we have not sinned
  • Then in disagreement and not walking in the light

So, yes, I see admission of what we know as a requirement of walking in the light in fellowship. I see what you and @mailmandan are saying, but as I've said, I see it as a bit hyperbolic and thus placing a burden that can be too much. With this said, though, I don't arbitrarily limit our need to strive for the highest in learning and growing while also knowing that it is He that is in charge of our advance and setting our pace.

I came to view this dynamic walk as visually walking with our Lord Jesus as His disciple and a younger brother of the first-born Son of our Father. He knows our thoughts and can give us a look that asks what are you thinking? If we say or do something in disagreement with Him, He can give us that same look that asks if we'd like to reconsider and admit our error or even ask questions in an effort to better understand how and where we are in error. And He can escalate if necessary and ask us point blank if we'd like to reconsider and admit our error. IF we don't and want to be in disagreement with Him, then we're in rebellion, making Him a liar, His Word is not in us (which means more than we don't know the truth about some sin), and we've got problems not only in our walk but in our relationship which is based in submissive belief in Him.

Admission IMO is a dynamic tool for our education, growth, benefit and relationship. It's a requirement of our abiding walk in the light in fellowship.

 

[homwardbound]

I think you are reading me correctly.

The way I read those Scriptures, they are mainly speaking of our walk in the light with Him. Part of that dynamic walk is to be and remain in agreement with Him and admit when we have disagreed with Him.

The conditional clauses are all 3rd class which provides for do or don't potentiality - if we do - if we don't.

So:

• IF we are walking in the light
  • Then we're being constantly cleansed
    • I think this is covering being sanctified from all kinds of defilements from the world and the cleansing and perfecting of the conscience spoken of in Hebrews (2Cor7:1; Eph5:26; Heb9)
• IF we say that we do not have sin (are not sinners/sinful)
  • Then we are not walking in the light & not being constantly cleansed
• IF we admit our sins (when we do sin)
  • Then He forgives our admitted sin(s) and cleanses from all unrighteousness
    • I think this cleansing from all unrighteousness ties this admission requirement back to 1:7 and remaining in the walk in the light with Him and with one another. IOW, apart from this admission when we know we have sinned, we are not walking in the light with Him and this forgiveness and cleansing is not taking place.
    • From here we go into the disciplinary instructions for wayward children.
      • In this regard, I think at minimum we must consider the perfect knowledge of a perfect Father and how we might think we can exploit this admission provision and get away with things, but we cannot.
• IF we say we have not sinned
  • Then in disagreement and not walking in the light

So, yes, I see admission of what we know as a requirement of walking in the light in fellowship. I see what you and @mailmandan are saying, but as I've said, I see it as a bit hyperbolic and thus placing a burden that can be too much. With this said, though, I don't arbitrarily limit our need to strive for the highest in learning and growing while also knowing that it is He that is in charge of our advance and setting our pace.

I came to view this dynamic walk as visually walking with our Lord Jesus as His disciple and a younger brother of the first-born Son of our Father. He knows our thoughts and can give us a look that asks what are you thinking? If we say or do something in disagreement with Him, He can give us that same look that asks if we'd like to reconsider and admit our error or even ask questions in an effort to better understand how and where we are in error. And He can escalate if necessary and ask us point blank if we'd like to reconsider and admit our error. IF we don't and want to be in disagreement with Him, then we're in rebellion, making Him a liar, His Word is not in us (which means more than we don't know the truth about some sin), and we've got problems not only in our walk but in our relationship which is based in submissive belief in Him.

Admission IMO is a dynamic tool for our education, growth, benefit and relationship. It's a requirement of our abiding walk in the light in fellowship.

Have you ever sought out I John chapter 1, whom it is written to by John and why John wrote it?

This Chapter was to Gnostics, that did not, do not believe in the Jesus that came to earth in the flesh through woman, using scripture, no flesh can please God. therefore, Jesus could not be here in the flesh ever since no flesh can please God (Romans 8:1-3)

So, John starts out the response to the person that wrote to him, when he was on the Island of Patmos about this division happening in this persons leading a gathering. that had people that would not believe or could not believe Jesus came to earth in flesh and blood


Authorized (King James) Version

1 John 1

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (for the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 3 that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

First off, Jesus did come here to earth in flesh and blood, we saw, him, we heard him, we ate with him, does this begin to clear it all up? I am Trusting from Father to reveal this truth to us all.
Son did come here to earth through the Virgin Mary, not born of man, born of woman yes as said in Genesis would happen in Chapter 3.
How does one walk in the light, as Son is in the light, risen for us to be new in Father's Spirit and Truth leading us as if we are dead to first birth in flesh and blood, held alive in Father's Spirit and Truth (John 4:23-24) and all thought taken captive over it (2 Cor 10:5) onward soldier, to me at least
To accept whether one sins again or not by God thanks to Son, one remains forgiven, reconciled by God through Son for them? (2 Cor 5:17-20, John 1:29, John 19:30)

That is fact, I know this truth, God is not condemning anyone since Son took away sin of this world for us all in Daddy's sight, What????????????????????????
Yes, this is done for us all to believe God and begin to see new from Father, Daddy's, PaPa's view
Once one, anyone accepts in thanksgiving and praise and asks for the new life in the risen Christ will be sealed to see the whole truth in being 100% forgiven, reconciled by God through Son for them as done for them to do new, no more focusing on I can't do it.
Under Law, not upholding Law, that did that to me for a long while, I see new now and see it is done as Son said it is in John 19:30, then risen where Father gives new life in Daddy's spirit and Truth, the Holy Spirit to lead you, in love and mercy to all, not just a few as we all have done that, Thinking I am in better than others attitudes of flesh nature being a person better than others (Luke 18:9-14)

God Won for you, me and everyone else, frisky reconciliation is the will one time death, then risen where Father gives new life to us each as in John 4:23-24
Now read 1 John 2 that explains it deeper than only reading verses that get taken out of place to convince people of what is not done against what is done
Think on the wisdom of God's love for us alll and ask why did Son go to that cross willingly fly for what?
God will reveal it to you to be stress free, while you might or should be in stress still and are not.
The same as Paul was still praising Father an dSon over being imprisoned and the jail help saw this unnatural response and began belief also

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I think you are reading me correctly.

The way I read those Scriptures, they are mainly speaking of our walk in the light with Him. Part of that dynamic walk is to be and remain in agreement with Him and admit when we have disagreed with Him.

The conditional clauses are all 3rd class which provides for do or don't potentiality - if we do - if we don't.

So:

• IF we are walking in the light
  • Then we're being constantly cleansed
    • I think this is covering being sanctified from all kinds of defilements from the world and the cleansing and perfecting of the conscience spoken of in Hebrews (2Cor7:1; Eph5:26; Heb9)
• IF we say that we do not have sin (are not sinners/sinful)
  • Then we are not walking in the light & not being constantly cleansed
• IF we admit our sins (when we do sin)
  • Then He forgives our admitted sin(s) and cleanses from all unrighteousness
    • I think this cleansing from all unrighteousness ties this admission requirement back to 1:7 and remaining in the walk in the light with Him and with one another. IOW, apart from this admission when we know we have sinned, we are not walking in the light with Him and this forgiveness and cleansing is not taking place.
    • From here we go into the disciplinary instructions for wayward children.
      • In this regard, I think at minimum we must consider the perfect knowledge of a perfect Father and how we might think we can exploit this admission provision and get away with things, but we cannot.
• IF we say we have not sinned
  • Then in disagreement and not walking in the light

So, yes, I see admission of what we know as a requirement of walking in the light in fellowship.

I think the position you have staked out goes beyond making "fellowship" conditional and makes our "relationship" conditional.

I see what you and @mailmandan are saying, but as I've said, I see it as a bit hyperbolic and thus placing a burden that can be too much. With this said, though, I don't arbitrarily limit our need to strive for the highest in learning and growing while also knowing that it is He that is in charge of our advance and setting our pace.

You agree that requiring us to enumerate all our sins is too difficult a burden to bear, but insist that "reasonable best efforts" to confess every known sin is required for the unconfessed sins to be forgiven. It is inconcievable to me to draw a line which clearly demarcates what is reasonable best efforts and what is not. I find it much more reasonable to accept and agree with God that there is nothing we can do to earn His forgiveness except to have a greatful heart for the price He paid for our sins.

I came to view this dynamic walk as visually walking with our Lord Jesus as His disciple and a younger brother of the first-born Son of our Father. He knows our thoughts and can give us a look that asks what are you thinking? If we say or do something in disagreement with Him, He can give us that same look that asks if we'd like to reconsider and admit our error or even ask questions in an effort to better understand how and where we are in error. And He can escalate if necessary and ask us point blank if we'd like to reconsider and admit our error. IF we don't and want to be in disagreement with Him, then we're in rebellion, making Him a liar, His Word is not in us (which means more than we don't know the truth about some sin), and we've got problems not only in our walk but in our relationship which is based in submissive belief in Him.

I see the Spirit's interraction with us much the same as you have described here. The main difference is that I do not see Him as giving us "looks" or "asking us" to reconsider our actions. I see His correction as more direct. He corrects us whenever we go astray. His correction always presumes we know what corrective actions He requires. His correction is always so unpleasant that we eventually decide to be corrected. And we have peace again with Him as soon as His correction is successful. Certainly, while we are being corrected, our "fellowship" with God is suffering (because His correction is painful). But at no point in the correction process does He disown us and end our "relationship" with Him as children. I do think it is possible to resist His correction to the point that He ends our physical lives as punishment, but even then I do not see it as ending the gift of eternal life He had given.

Admission IMO is a dynamic tool for our education, growth, benefit and relationship. It's a requirement of our abiding walk in the light in fellowship.

If we are walking in the light, we are fellowshipping with Him, and there is no need for His correction. Our relationship with Him stays intact when we do not walk in the light. If we are His sons, He corrects us. If we are not corrected when we fail to walk in the light, then we are illigitimate and not sons.

 

[studier]

Have you ever sought out I John chapter 1, whom it is written to by John and why John wrote it?

This Chapter was to Gnostics, that did not, do not believe in the Jesus that came to earth in the flesh through woman, using scripture, no flesh can please God. therefore, Jesus could not be here in the flesh ever since no flesh can please God (Romans 8:1-3)

So, John starts out the response to the person that wrote to him, when he was on the Island of Patmos about this division happening in this persons leading a gathering. that had people that would not believe or could not believe Jesus came to earth in flesh and blood


Authorized (King James) Version

1 John 1

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (for the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 3 that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

First off, Jesus did come here to earth in flesh and blood, we saw, him, we heard him, we ate with him, does this begin to clear it all up? I am Trusting from Father to reveal this truth to us all.
Son did come here to earth through the Virgin Mary, not born of man, born of woman yes as said in Genesis would happen in Chapter 3.
How does one walk in the light, as Son is in the light, risen for us to be new in Father's Spirit and Truth leading us as if we are dead to first birth in flesh and blood, held alive in Father's Spirit and Truth (John 4:23-24) and all thought taken captive over it (2 Cor 10:5) onward soldier, to me at least
To accept whether one sins again or not by God thanks to Son, one remains forgiven, reconciled by God through Son for them? (2 Cor 5:17-20, John 1:29, John 19:30)

That is fact, I know this truth, God is not condemning anyone since Son took away sin of this world for us all in Daddy's sight, What????????????????????????
Yes, this is done for us all to believe God and begin to see new from Father, Daddy's, PaPa's view
Once one, anyone accepts in thanksgiving and praise and asks for the new life in the risen Christ will be sealed to see the whole truth in being 100% forgiven, reconciled by God through Son for them as done for them to do new, no more focusing on I can't do it.
Under Law, not upholding Law, that did that to me for a long while, I see new now and see it is done as Son said it is in John 19:30, then risen where Father gives new life in Daddy's spirit and Truth, the Holy Spirit to lead you, in love and mercy to all, not just a few as we all have done that, Thinking I am in better than others attitudes of flesh nature being a person better than others (Luke 18:9-14)

God Won for you, me and everyone else, frisky reconciliation is the will one time death, then risen where Father gives new life to us each as in John 4:23-24
Now read 1 John 2 that explains it deeper than only reading verses that get taken out of place to convince people of what is not done against what is done
Think on the wisdom of God's love for us alll and ask why did Son go to that cross willingly fly for what?
God will reveal it to you to be stress free, while you might or should be in stress still and are not.
The same as Paul was still praising Father an dSon over being imprisoned and the jail help saw this unnatural response and began belief also

How does this answer what some of us are discussing regarding the few verses we are discussing? John is writing to Christians - do you agree?

 

[studier]

I think the position you have staked out goes beyond making "fellowship" conditional and makes our "relationship" conditional.

I assume you'll be explaining this as we proceed. I completely disagree with this assessment. I do see the walk in the light as provisional as I think is clear in what I said and the walk in the light is fellowship. If the walk is not abiding, then discipline, which is still relationship.

You agree that requiring us to enumerate all our sins is too difficult a burden to bear, but insist that "reasonable best efforts" to confess every known sin is required for the unconfessed sins to be forgiven. It is inconcievable to me to draw a line which clearly demarcates what is reasonable best efforts and what is not. I find it much more reasonable to accept and agree with God that there is nothing we can do to earn His forgiveness except to have a greatful heart for the price He paid for our sins.

I understand your position. I disagree with it and think the language is very clear as I've already explained it.

I also think you're looking at this from a human perspective of what we can and cannot do, instead of from a divine perspective of what can be done in Christ in Spirit under the leading and guiding of the Spirit. IOW in the dynamic relationship we have with Him he can impress upon us what He wills and requires from us. This coupled with being taught His Word and His ability to enlighten us from His Word when He wants us to learn and to know something all works together to raise and train us at His pace as we do our part in abiding faithful submission to Him which is also enabled by Him. I also include being tested in this growth within relationship.

IOW the line of demarcation is His to draw and not ours. We live in Christ with the mindset provided us from His Word and His Spirit doing what we know He wills us to do, including admitting our know failures which ultimately, He has made us able to know, and He is at work in us providing capacity for us to both will and work for His good pleasure.

I see the Spirit's interraction with us much the same as you have described here. The main difference is that I do not see Him as giving us "looks" or "asking us" to reconsider our actions. I see His correction as more direct. He corrects us whenever we go astray. His correction always presumes we know what corrective actions He requires. His correction is always so unpleasant that we eventually decide to be corrected. And we have peace again with Him as soon as His correction is successful. Certainly, while we are being corrected, our "fellowship" with God is suffering (because His correction is painful). But at no point in the correction process does He disown us and end our "relationship" with Him as children. I do think it is possible to resist His correction to the point that He ends our physical lives as punishment, but even then I do not see it as ending the gift of eternal life He had given.

Whether looks or taps on the shoulder of conscience, He can perfectly get our attention. An issue with taking sheep metaphors too far is that we are not sheep and don't always need the rod to redirect us. Another metaphor in Scripture is of strong and powerful war horses that are so highly trained that it only takes a slight shift of the body or slight touch of the reins to redirect us.

As a child becomes trained, at times it only takes a look and there is no pain except for possibly a twinge in mentality/spirit that is self-critical for the failure - failing the one we love and look up to (to put it mildly).

There is also associated with all this provision to deal with sins the ability to approach our great High Priest in times of need which in context has to do with Him knowing everything about sins Heb4:15-16. I take this to mean and have used it for decades to approach Him if I'm struggling mentally with some sin. I've consistently found that the mental struggle ceases.

I've not remotely gotten into anything touching on loss of relationship and see no need to go there from these few verses.

If we are walking in the light, we are fellowshipping with Him, and there is no need for His correction. Our relationship with Him stays intact when we do not walk in the light. If we are His sons, He corrects us. If we are not corrected when we fail to walk in the light, then we are illigitimate and not sons.

Disagree with your first sentence as already explained. If there's no need for His correction, then we never sin which contradicts these 1John verses. In a perfect walk, I'd agree with you, but IMO this is what this section of Scripture is discussing - we are not experientially perfected.

I agree with your second sentence in regard to these verses re: the relational and think I've made this clear re: His disciplining His sons.

If we are not ultimately corrected when we fail to walk in the light, then different levels of discipline have not worked, and it seems to be your view that we were never saved. Yet there are other views that say we were, and we're simply taken home prematurely. And there are others who say salvation can be lost. Again, IMO this is not under discussion in these verses.

 

[homwardbound]

How does this answer what some of us are discussing regarding the few verses we are discussing? John is writing to Christians - do you agree?

The writing from John in 1 John, I have stated it was/is written to "Unbelievers" in the Christ was here in flesh and blood, born of woman first before death, burial and resurrection is not written to Believer's in the flesh walk, burial and resurrection of Christ for each to be born new by Father to them in the risen Son for them to be new in, willingly dead to self. Read further in context in Chapter 2 of 1 John especially verse 27, yet please read it in context and not pick any verse out of context, please thank you?
See it, however you decide to, you are free to choose as all are free from God to choose.
To believe as they decide to believe and keep short accounts with God, is to me denying the final sacrifice of Son, done once for us all to be new in his risen Life to Father. and love all not a few anymore. God's love of 1 Cor 13:4-7
No one by the risen Son today, has to live like refugees being in stress of I am in then I am out and judging others in and out as well. unless I do or not do attitude, set up by religions for this attitude
I am right you are wrong, no thanks for me to do that ever again (Rom 2:1-4)
that is the same as was done in the first testament known as the Old Testament, under Law where no one could ever be or get perfect in trying at all
Yet, thank you for trying to see the truth and eventually see to relent from being under Law eventually too

Authorized (King James) Version

Romans 4:23-24

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Sorry you seem to not see this truth fact for you to be freed too, thank you

 

[homwardbound]

How does this answer what some of us are discussing regarding the few verses we are discussing? John is writing to Christians - do you agree?

Form your eternal life and for all others in continued belief too that is how, thank you

 

[Kroogz]

Just repeating to say how much immaturity we see and do on these threads.

That is true. We tend to see and detest the very things that represent us.....But there are a few here that are spiritually mature. They have offered us many little nuggets.