Loss of salvation???

[studier]

Charging the subject just for edification purposes of course but have you noticed that 1Cor 3:1-3 that you quote describes them as carnal when they strive between each other over whether Paul, Apollos, or Peter is the better teacher? It does not say drunkards are carnal Christians. Then when it talks about works passing through the fire and some wood hay and stubble not surviving but they would still be saved yet not receive a reward and suffer some loss, that it is in the context of the teachings, and ministry of Paul, Apollos, Peter or any other minister. So we as ministers are to be careful about our teachings that we are preaching Christ. This is important
Too many have misunderstood and teach this passage all about a Christian who is a drunkard but that's not what Paul called carnal. He said drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God. In this passage where he says they are carnal he says it's because they are striving over favorite preachers but their jealousy and envy is NOT the wood hay and stubble that he refers to. The wood hay and stubble and being saved but suffering loss is not being applied to the carnal striving jealous Corinthians it is applied to Paul, Apollos,Peter or any other minister who must be careful that they build upon no other foundation than Jesus Christ, and to be careful that what they teach will receive a reward.

It's always interested me how so many, including many teachers, do not see the builders being the focus in that part of 1Cor.

It's also fascinating how the fleshliness of [still immature] Christians is presented in 1Cor and how forums like these bring out example after example of the same fact. In these days the names have been changed to more recent historical names and by inference to every denomination teaching something different. 'Well, my pastor says...' Camps-based soldiers.

 

[Kroogz]

It's always interested me how so many, including many teachers, do not see the builders being the focus in that part of 1Cor.

ALL believers are builders.

HEB 5:12
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the actual words of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

I Corinthians 3:11-17 NKJV
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all(Believers) appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

 

[studier]

ALL believers are builders.

HEB 5:12
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the actual words of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

I Corinthians 3:11-17 NKJV
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all(Believers) appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

In a sense. So, what are they passing on to others?

In another sense see 1Cor12:28 & James 3:1.

Also, look at the compensatory language of 2Cor5:10 and consider how in part in plays well with 1Cor3:12-15.

 

[Kroogz]

In a sense. So, what are they passing on to others?

In another sense see 1Cor12:28 & James 3:1.

Also, look at the compensatory language of 2Cor5:10 and consider how in part in plays well with 1Cor3:12-15.

1 Corinthians 3:6-8

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

1 Corinthians 12:28
28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

In the sense that we are all given a spiritual gift. No matter how great or small , we all build upon His foundation.

So we all will be evaluated and rewarded accordingly. We are all builders according to what God has given us.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Certain folks jump to the conclusion that 1 John 5:16 is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not fit the context. 1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

1 Corinthians 11:29 - For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

The apostle Paul knows that the judgment of God can take on the form of physical illness and even physical death. The word "sleep" when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers, not spiritual death or soul sleep (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4).

Let's look at the verses that surround 1 John 1:9...

8 If we say that [we have - present tense] no [sin - singular accusative], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we [confess - present tense] our [sins - plural accusative], He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that [we have not sinned - perfect tense], we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 Jn 1:8–10)​

Verse 8 says we deceive ourselves if we do not think of ourselves as sinners in the here and now. Verse 9 says our sins are forgiven if we admit that we are sinners in the here and now. Verse 10 says that we think of Jesus as a liar if we do not think of ourselves as having sinned in the past and as now living with the adverse consequences of sin in the here and now.

One consequence of these verses is that there will never be a single moment on this earth that we are not wholely dependent on Jesus' forgiveness and cleansing.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Let's look at the verses that surround 1 John 1:9...

8 If we say that [we have - present tense] no [sin - singular accusative], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we [confess - present tense] our [sins - plural accusative], He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that [we have not sinned - perfect tense], we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 Jn 1:8–10)​

Verse 8 says we deceive ourselves if we do not think of ourselves as sinners in the here and now. Verse 9 says our sins are forgiven if we admit that we are sinners in the here and now. Verse 10 says that we think of Jesus as a liar if we do not think of ourselves as having sinned in the past and as now living with the adverse consequences of sin in the here and now.

One consequence of these verses is that there will never be a single moment on this earth that we are not wholely dependent on Jesus' forgiveness and cleansing.

It is amazing to me that people could think of themselves as not in need of His mercy. I just do not understand such confidence in oneself.

 

[studier]

1 Corinthians 3:6-8

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

1 Corinthians 12:28
28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

In the sense that we are all given a spiritual gift. No matter how great or small , we all build upon His foundation.

So we all will be evaluated and rewarded accordingly. We are all builders according to what God has given us.

Though I think we can narrow down and tighten up a bit Scripturally, I've no issue re: the proper function of the body.

I was very recently chasing around through Scripture the watering concept. I've long held that those placing the Foundation in our time are not doing a "master builder" job. Nor IMO are many who are standing front and center as builders.

So, similarly, the planters and waterers are leaving much to be desired. The issue I saw in my recent study is how it looks like the lack of watering is tied to dryness (which obviously makes sense in the physical) and what a problem this dryness can be.

The issue for all of us being; though western culture has become very self-oriented; our Text goes well beyond that and is mainly corporately oriented - as we should be. Then the condition of the corporate if we look around objectively is not good. These threads show a microcosm of this condition and reflect current worldly culture IMO.

My question is, what does this say about this and other generations when we get to the Bema? Corporate maturity seems a long way off, at least through certain perspectives.

 

[studier]

Let's look at the verses that surround 1 John 1:9...

8 If we say that [we have - present tense] no [sin - singular accusative], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we [confess - present tense] our [sins - plural accusative], He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that [we have not sinned - perfect tense], we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 Jn 1:8–10)​

Verse 8 says we deceive ourselves if we do not think of ourselves as sinners in the here and now. Verse 9 says our sins are forgiven if we admit that we are sinners in the here and now. Verse 10 says that we think of Jesus as a liar if we do not think of ourselves as having sinned in the past and as now living with the adverse consequences of sin in the here and now.

One consequence of these verses is that there will never be a single moment on this earth that we are not wholely dependent on Jesus' forgiveness and cleansing.

I was going to take up the discussion before this but will do so here.

Will you clarify what you think 1John1:9 is telling us in regard to confession of sins we become aware of? I'll refer you here as a reference and flag its poster.

cc: @mailmandan

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Though I think we can narrow down and tighten up a bit Scripturally, I've no issue re: the proper function of the body.

I was very recently chasing around through Scripture the watering concept. I've long held that those placing the Foundation in our time are not doing a "master builder" job. Nor IMO are many who are standing front and center as builders.

So, similarly, the planters and waterers are leaving much to be desired. The issue I saw in my recent study is how it looks like the lack of watering is tied to dryness (which obviously makes sense in the physical) and what a problem this dryness can be.

The issue for all of us being; though western culture has become very self-oriented; our Text goes well beyond that and is mainly corporately oriented - as we should be. Then the condition of the corporate if we look around objectively is not good. These threads show a microcosm of this condition and reflect current worldly culture IMO.

My question is, what does this say about this and other generations when we get to the Bema? Corporate maturity seems a long way off, at least through certain perspectives.

I think the dryness relates to corporate rejection of the Holy Spirit and His central role in leading, guiding, directing, correcting, and comforting us from the depths of our own hearts. And I think this rejection reflects the fleshly need to walk by sight and not by faith. It is sad to think what it might mean for us (collectively) if we don't make corrections

 

[NOV25]

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

No, salvation is eternal and entirely of the Lord, can’t do anything to earn it, can’t do anything to lose it.

Those who make a profession then depart, prove they never had true faith-these can still come to faith Lord willing.

 

[studier]

I think the dryness relates to corporate rejection of the Holy Spirit and His central role in leading, guiding, directing, correcting, and comforting us from the depths of our own hearts. And I think this rejection reflects the fleshly need to walk by sight and not by faith. It is sad to think what it might mean for us (collectively) if we don't make corrections

Understood. And agreed to a point. I do see the rejection of the Spirit as more than solely corporate.

Some of the wording connections re: dried up are interesting as I recall from chasing the concept around and led me to say what I said about our work in the corporate sense and how that affects not only the corporate but members.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I was going to take up the discussion before this but will do so here.

Will you clarify what you think 1John1:9 is telling us in regard to confession of sins we become aware of? I'll refer you here as a reference and flag its poster.

cc: @mailmandan

I believe the word, "ὁμολογέω" in verse 9 is in contrast to the word "λέγω" in verse 8. "ὁμολογέω", which is a compound word derived from "λέγω" and literaerally means, “to say the same thing” per the abridged version of the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. therefore, "If we say we have no sin" in verse 8 is contrasted with "If we admit we are sinners" in verse 9.

I agree with Dan that it is impossible to enumerate all our sins, and 1 John 1:9 is not telling us we must do so. It is telling us that we must agree with God's declaration that we are sinners in need of a Savior and that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient for us to be right with God.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Understood. And agreed to a point. I do see the rejection of the Spirit as more than solely corporate.

Some of the wording connections re: dried up are interesting as I recall from chasing the concept around and led me to say what I said about our work in the corporate sense and how that affects not only the corporate but members.

I agree that the rejection of the Spirit is more than corporate. I was just agreeing with you that individual rejection is in part because of poor leadership. However, since the Spirit leads each of us, an individual who rejects Him can't blame it on their pastor or their denominational leaders.

 

[SirSolaScriptura]

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

You can be restored if you fall away,
"if anyone among you wanders from the truth (Jesus, "I am the Way, The Truth, and the Life" John 14:6) and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)

A true apostate is not someone who leaves and comes back, it is someone who never wants to come back ever.

Hebrews 6 that gets cited a lot in context is not about falling away in sense of what we think, its about going back to the Law to save you (Acts 15:1 type people). There were those who think you had to do the Law of Moses and believe in Jesus to be saved, which the Council of Jerusalem with the Apostles Peter, Paul, and James refuted in Acts Chapter Fifteen.

 

[studier]

I agree that the rejection of the Spirit is more than corporate. I was just agreeing with you that individual rejection is in part because of poor leadership. However, since the Spirit leads each of us, an individual who rejects Him can't blame it on their pastor or their denominational leaders.

Thanks for clarifying.

My concern re: the corporate is although an individual can't [completely] point blame, our Lord may be doing so for not doing our part in the corporate.

 

[Inquisitor]

So it's all up to the believers ability to "follow" well enough then? That is what you are saying, that "salvation" is really just being put on holy probation to test our ability to "follow" well enough. Sounds very works based to me.

Why do we have to endure in our faith?

 

[Inquisitor]

Romans 2 is not about people who are saved through the gospel; it concerns those whose hope is in their works and in the Law: see Romans 3:21 and onward, "but now.."

Here is what Chat GPT has to say on, "endurance" and OSAS.

Yes, the New Testament concept of endurance in faith—which Jesus and the apostles emphasized—seems to conflict with the idea of "once saved, always saved" (OSAS) as it is commonly understood. Jesus Himself repeatedly warned that only those who endure to the end will be saved (Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13). The apostles also stressed perseverance in faith, warning against falling away (Hebrews 3:12-14, 1 Corinthians 9:27, 2 Peter 2:20-22). This implies that salvation is not merely a past event but an ongoing relationship with Christ that must be maintained.

The Problem with OSAS

1. Warnings Against Falling Away – Scripture is full of warnings about apostasy, which wouldn't make sense if salvation were permanently secured at the moment of conversion (Hebrews 6:4-6, Galatians 5:4, 1 Timothy 4:1).
2. Parables of Jesus – The Parable of the Sower (Luke 8:13) describes those who receive the word with joy but fall away in time of testing, showing that faith can be abandoned.
3. Faith as a Journey – Paul compares faith to a race (1 Corinthians 9:24-27, 2 Timothy 4:7), implying that endurance is necessary to reach the goal.

Calvinism & Sovereign Election vs. Endurance

Calvinism teaches sovereign election—that God has already chosen His people from eternity past, and they will inevitably be saved (the doctrine of perseverance of the saints). But this creates tension with the biblical requirement for human responsibility and endurance. If one is truly elect, why must they strive, persevere, and fight the good fight?

• If endurance is necessary, salvation cannot be guaranteed apart from faithfulness.
• If sovereign election overrides human response, then the warnings in Scripture become meaningless.

This paradox suggests that either:

1. Calvinism misunderstands how election works.
2. Election is conditional upon faith and endurance, rather than being an irreversible, eternal decree.

The NT picture seems to align more with faith as a living relationship, where believers must abide in Christ (John 15:5-6). If someone does not remain in Him, they are "cast away." Thus, salvation is not about a one-time decision but about a continual walk in faith and love—which is only possible through the Spirit.

 

[Genez]

Okay, can you share your Christian bar of soap , please? wait a sec, you just did, using 1 John 1:9 as if God needs to send Son back to die all over again to forgive us, each person individually?
That is what I hear the 1 John 1 whiners state, God's Son's death is not good enough, you need to get forgiven all over again and again, wash, wash, wash.
With that attitude (Flesh) will never please God, that is done once in Son's death once for us all. there is no more going Back to give or do anymore forgiveness. It is finished we all are forgiven Eph 1:7 2 Cor 5:17-20, John 19:30
So, what to do, since one has and does sin again, before and after belief to God in risen Son?
How to overcome and not be proud when do or at least think you have or will in not giving up trying not to sin again under Law? That all continue in sin because of trying not to sin. Is that you?
How, you doing in trying not to do it, behind closed doors? I do not do well either. Therefore I have given up on me, seeing no flesh can do it perfect as is done now by Son once for us all first. I saw to ask for the new life, asked without any ultrerior motive and God gave freely, hoping for all others also.

Authorized (King James) Version

2 Cor 10:5-8
5 casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 and having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ’s, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ’s, even so are we Christ’s. 8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

Have a very nice day...

And, remember!

Test the spirits!

 

[GWH]

Charging the subject just for edification purposes of course but have you noticed that 1Cor 3:1-3 that you quote describes them as carnal when they strive between each other over whether Paul, Apollos, or Peter is the better teacher? It does not say drunkards are carnal Christians. Then when it talks about works passing through the fire and some wood hay and stubble not surviving but they would still be saved yet not receive a reward and suffer some loss, that it is in the context of the teachings, and ministry of Paul, Apollos, Peter or any other minister. So we as ministers are to be careful about our teachings that we are preaching Christ. This is important
Too many have misunderstood and teach this passage all about a Christian who is a drunkard but that's not what Paul called carnal. He said drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God. In this passage where he says they are carnal he says it's because they are striving over favorite preachers but their jealousy and envy is NOT the wood hay and stubble that he refers to. The wood hay and stubble and being saved but suffering loss is not being applied to the carnal striving jealous Corinthians it is applied to Paul, Apollos,Peter or any other minister who must be careful that they build upon no other foundation than Jesus Christ, and to be careful that what they teach will receive a reward.

Well, what applies to the minister also applies to every Christian
and the sin of denominationalism is as serious as drunkenness (TIT 3:9-11).

 

[Genez]

Why do we have to endure in our faith?

Faith is not a feeling.

Some think it is simply a feeling of trust towards God, and that is all.
For a baby Christian that may be the case.
But, God wants us to become adults. That means?
Learning the think more and more in the sound doctrine we have coming our way.

It is those who are drawn to false doctrine who will not have the grace to endure.
They will crack up... even join some silly religious church. Only with sound doctrine
will be find our self able to endure what God wants us to endure...
All endured, to eventually prove our faith is genuine!

​

​

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you ​

may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come ​

so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth ​

than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result ​

in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. ​

​

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though ​

you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with ​

an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal ​

of your faith, the salvation of your souls." 1 Peter 1:6-9​

Faith is having knowledge of God's Word coming alive in you!

We must endure pain and grief while gaining more and more sound doctrine,
as to utilize that doctrine in the filling of the Spirit, to cause us to change inwardly
and gain strength to overcome the trials and testings that God predetermined should come our way.


grace and peace .......