Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

[lenna]

“The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind:

‘You are a priest forever.’ ”c

22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23Now there have been many other priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office. 24But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.

26Such a high priest truly befits us—One who is holy, innocent, undefiled, set apart from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people; He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
Hebrews 7

aren't we relieved and thankful that it is God through His Son who has the ability to completely save those who come to God through Him (for there is no other name under heaven that can give salvation and remission of sins)

to me, this fact just puts people like MacArthur and others in such a pale and fading light.

further, God knows those who are His and if you are His you know that too

the rest is just smoke

 

[EleventhHour]

Yup 4 point calvinists

Yes they are along with CARM, Gospel Coalition and many high other profile teachers and commentators on places like Bible.org.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm curious. Do you actually think before you type?
Your question: do you or do you not preach that water baptism must be achieved to be born again?
I answered: I don't preach.

Your thinking when reading that in the personal as you posted and addressed for me to understand in context.
So I can't answer the question (do you or do you not preach that water baptism must be achieved to be born again?), that's ( the answer I gave: I don't preach) the answer (That answer I don't preach) (to your question) right there, because I believe that (I don't preach) to be true.

What a convoluted way to make no sense thinking you're actually accusing me of something. When in fact, when your remarks are diagrammed in that way, yes! I do know my prior response to be true. I don't preach.
That's right, I don't. Thanks.

I do know what scripture tells me.

The links have been posted already.
John 3:5
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 3:3-4
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; 4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

1 Peter 3:21
" whereunto even baptism doth also now save us, (not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

So you tell me you do not preach salvation by water baptism, yet here you are trying to preach Salvation by water baptism to me

and then you have the audacity to call me a liar when I declare you teach works.

good day sir, I will let you live in your view, and pray for you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, they're not Calvinists. https://www.gotquestions.org/faith.html

taken from their site

So, in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, who is correct? It is interesting to note that in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism. There are five-point Calvinists and five-point Arminians, and at the same time three-point Calvinists and two-point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views. Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.

the person your discussing with thinks prety much everyone is a calvinist

 

[soggykitten]

taken from their site

So, in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, who is correct? It is interesting to note that in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism. There are five-point Calvinists and five-point Arminians, and at the same time three-point Calvinists and two-point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views. Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.
W
the person your discussing with thinks prety much everyone is a calvinist

Do you have a link to that?

This was shared by ThroughFaith earlier. https://www.gotquestions.org/Amyraldism.html

 

[soggykitten]

So you tell me you do not preach salvation by water baptism, yet here you are trying to preach Salvation by water baptism to me

and then you have the audacity to call me a liar when I declare you teach works.

good day sir, I will let you live in your view, and pray for you

What's sad here is that you warp what I said with your own odd imagination. And then presume to tell me you'll pray for my misunderstanding.

I'll pray for myself thanks. And I'm female not male. What male would call themselves soggy kitten?
If you think Baptism is works salvation we should all pray for you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you have a link to that?

This was shared by ThroughFaith earlier. https://www.gotquestions.org/Amyraldism.html

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What's sad here is that you warp what I said with your own odd imagination. And then presume to tell me you'll pray for my misunderstanding.

I'll pray for myself thanks.
If you think Baptism is works salvation we should all pray for you.

I just asked you a question

do you think water baptism is required for salvation?

can you please answer

 

[soggykitten]

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

That's simply providing information concerning Calvinism and Arminianism. Did you read the link where GQ states they are four point Calvinist?
I didn't know this either until I read it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's simply providing information concerning Calvinism and Arminianism. Did you read the link where GQ states they are four point Calvinist?
I didn't know this either until I read it.

Yeah I did, and I see no place in that article where they claimed to follow that teaching, in fact if you read it, it shared problems with that belief system, you do not share problems with a Belief system if it is yours.

again, he is at war with anything that even appears to be calvinistic, so I would not trust everything he says about others

 

[soggykitten]

I just asked you a question

do you think water baptism is required for salvation?

can you please answer

What did Jesus say? He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Baptism is a ordinance in the church. Just to preempt any question about that statement, the church being the body of believers in Christ. People can take that scripture to mean, belief is a requirement, Baptism is an option because the passage does not say in its last part,... but he who has disbelieved and not been baptized shall be condemned.

What I think you should concentrate on as a matter of personal introspection is why are you so opposed to Baptism?

 

[soggykitten]

Yeah I did, and I see no place in that article where they claimed to follow that teaching, in fact if you read it, it shared problems with that belief system, you do not share problems with a Belief system if it is yours.

again, he is at war with anything that even appears to be calvinistic, so I would not trust everything he says about others

You missed this? It's near the bottom of the article. Linked here again: https://www.gotquestions.org/Amyraldism.html

Amyraldism, or four-point Calvinism, is popular today among many evangelicals, including independent Bible churches, Baptists, and some Presbyterians. Four-point Calvinism is also the official position of Got Questions Ministries, as we hold the view that the extent of the atonement was unlimited.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What did Jesus say? He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Baptism is a ordinance in the church. Just to preempt any question about that statement, the church being the body of believers in Christ. People can take that scripture to mean, belief is a requirement, Baptism is an option because the passage does not say in its last part,... but he who has disbelieved and not been baptized shall be condemned.

What I think you should concentrate on as a matter of personal introspection is why are you so opposed to Baptism?

Um Jesus did not say that

He said he who believes is not condemned he who does
Not believe is condemned already because he has Not believed

If your adding the righteous work of water Baptism to a requirement. Your teaching works salvation

As Paul said. Not bynworks id righteousness which we have done but by his mercy (Titus3: 5)

Water baptism is one of But Many righteous works Jesus commanded the church to do

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You missed this? It's near the bottom of the article. Linked here again: https://www.gotquestions.org/Amyraldism.html

Amyraldism, or four-point Calvinism, is popular today among many evangelicals, including independent Bible churches, Baptists, and some Presbyterians. Four-point Calvinism is also the official position of Got Questions Ministries, as we hold the view that the extent of the atonement was unlimited.

Ahh

Well I was a baptist and I did not hold to Calvinism. Calvin is a doctoral belief. Trying to paint everyone a catholic
Arminian is Calvin is prety Troublesome in my view

 

[soggykitten]

Um Jesus did not say that

He said he who believes is not condemned he who does
Not believe is condemned already because he has Not believed

Jesus did say that. It is a matter of versions of the bible. The book of Mark gives accounts of Jesus ministry. Some could say the Mark scriptures are the beginning of his ministry.
That scripture I posted that you quoted is from the New American Standard 1977version
Mark 16:15 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

Whereas I enjoy the NET version, among others. Mark16: 15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned. 1

If your adding the righteous work of water Baptism to a requirement. Your teaching works salvation

As Paul said. Not bynworks id righteousness which we have done but by his mercy (Titus3: 5)

Water baptism is one of But Many righteous works Jesus commanded the church to do

I am not responsible for your insistence with regard to baptism being related to works salvation or in any way attributed to it.

I think you'll have to take that to God in prayer and ask him why you're offended (?) , or have an issue, with baptism.
When there are scriptures that emphasize or refer to baptism and salvation in God's word the issue is yours.

I'm not going to continue to belabor the point with you. The bible says what it says. If you are opposed that is on you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus did say that. It is a matter of versions of the bible. The book of Mark gives accounts of Jesus ministry. Some could say the Mark scriptures are the beginning of his ministry.
That scripture I posted that you quoted is from the New American Standard 1977version
Mark 16:15 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

Whereas I enjoy the NET version, among others. Mark16: 15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

1.it does not say baptised in water, you assuming something that is not set in stone
2. Jesus in John 3 when speaking of being born again, said belief only, no mention of baptism so either Jesus is confused himself, or he did not mean water baptism in mark, he spoke of spirit baptism. (My view)

I am not responsible for your insistence with regard to baptism being related to works salvation or in any way attributed to it.

I think you'll have to take that to God in prayer and ask him why you're offended (?) , or have an issue, with baptism.
When there are scriptures that emphasize or refer to baptism and salvation in God's word the issue is yours.

I'm not going to continue to belabor the point with you. The bible says what it says. If you are opposed that is on you.

1. i am not offended
2. I have a problem with false gospels
3. I am not worried about myself I am worried about those decieved by a works gospel.

it’s not me who is offended it is God, it states his work is not enough[/QUOTE]

 

[soggykitten]

1.it does not say baptised in water, you assuming something that is not set in stone

Actually it is set on paper.

2. Jesus in John 3 when speaking of being born again, said belief only, no mention of baptism so either Jesus is confused himself, or he did not mean water baptism in mark, he spoke of spirit baptism. (My view)



1. i am not offended
2. I have a problem with false gospels
3. I am not worried about myself I am worried about those decieved by a works gospel.

it’s not me who is offended it is God, it states his work is not enough

At this point I believe you seek to offend Christians here. You have a problem with the actual gospel.
What you're trying to do is interject a false gospel by dismissing what is actually written. As we can see.
As may times as baptism has been pointed out in the scriptures contained in John 3 and yet there you claim there is no mention of baptism in John 3.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually it is set on paper.

At this point I believe you seek to offend Christians here. You have a problem with the actual gospel.
What you're trying to do is interject a false gospel by dismissing what is actually written. As we can see.
As may times as baptism has been pointed out in the scriptures contained in John 3 and yet there you claim there is no mention of baptism in John 3.

What I think is you are a person who has nothing better to do but try to belittle anyone who does not agree with you

show me where Jesus mentioned baptism to nicodemus in telling him how to be born Again, if you can do this, then I will grant you may be right.

context My friend contect, the baptism you showed me had nothing to do with Jesus conversation with nicodemus

 

[MyrtleTrees]

This thing of "lordship salvation" can be subtly misunderstood. To say I am for or against is is impossible if one does not know what is meant by the term.

So it must be explained:

I am very much against the idea that salvation is by faith plus works. That is, in order to be saved you have to obey certain rules or laws, and then you are saved. NO! NO! NO! Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.

On the other hand, some say something like this: You get saved by faith in Christ, and then after that you make a choice to either obey Christ or to not obey Him. You should choose to obey, but your choice has nothing to do with salvation. At best, this view is a deep misunderstanding of what salvation is. At worst, it could become heresy that lead people to eternal hell.

Salvation is not just getting sins forgiven, and getting to heaven. Being saved is also a present reality in being given the power through God's grace to live above the control of sin today. We can be saved today, and do not need to wait till heaven to be "saved".
Thus there is no "choice" once gets saved. Being saved and then somehow "choosing" to not obey is a misunderstanding of salvation.

I respect your views, but it isn't what I see in the scriptures. It's true it is impossible to get saved by works alone, yet I see evidence that repentance is also a very necessary part of receiving salvation. And repentance produces "works" or "fruit" (it's called both, as I see it, in the scriptures). And it is possible to fall away from Christ, as I see it as the Bible has verses that state this. Though it's true - a point will come to those who are sincere and remain faithful - in which there is no longer any danger of falling away. James tells us that both faith and works are necessary. There's other verses I know too, that say the same.
Acts 2:38

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
KJV

 

[mailmandan]

James tells us that both faith and works are necessary. There's other verses I know too, that say the same.

Do you teach that man is saved by both faith and works?