"Lord will only few be saved?"
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Hi Blik blessings.
How do you handle scriptures like 1.Tim.5. 11-16 which is pastoral.
Speaking about widows in the church who were not real widows having violated their first pledge incurred condemnation gadding around from house to house, idlers, gossips and busybodies. Some have already strayed after Satan.
Paul in no way indicates that they were not christian or that they should be chucked the heck out of the church or that they were in danger even of damnation. Paul would have been in dereliction if there were a danger and he failed to warn them.
He simply advocates better control over them.
My point was not to belittle salvation or the new birth or the great desire for holiness. I BELIEVE in holiness.
But the gift of salvation is FREELY given by the grace of God alone. And that must be our doctrine.
How do you handle scriptures like 1.Tim.5. 11-16 which is pastoral.
Speaking about widows in the church who were not real widows having violated their first pledge incurred condemnation gadding around from house to house, idlers, gossips and busybodies. Some have already strayed after Satan.
Paul in no way indicates that they were not christian or that they should be chucked the heck out of the church or that they were in danger even of damnation. Paul would have been in dereliction if there were a danger and he failed to warn them.
He simply advocates better control over them.
My point was not to belittle salvation or the new birth or the great desire for holiness. I BELIEVE in holiness.
But the gift of salvation is FREELY given by the grace of God alone. And that must be our doctrine.
.
The terms "few" and "many" are relative. For example:
• Rev 7:9 . . After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man
could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood
before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms
in their hands.
Regardless of the quantity represented by the great multitude in that
passage, it will be a smaller quantity than the multitude of folks who fail to
make the cut.
_
The terms "few" and "many" are relative. For example:
• Rev 7:9 . . After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man
could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood
before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms
in their hands.
Regardless of the quantity represented by the great multitude in that
passage, it will be a smaller quantity than the multitude of folks who fail to
make the cut.
_
.
• Rev 20:11-12 . . I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from
whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no
place for them.
. . . And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books
were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and
the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works.
That's an interesting scene. Only the dead are made to appear before the
throne, no living are mentioned there at all.
Anyway, one day at work I mentioned to an associate that the number of
dead people that God has to judge who ever lived since Genesis will be
enormous. How will He ever get around to all of them? My friend replied:
Well, He has lots of time.
Let's say, arbitrarily, that the judgment of each of the dead takes a half
hour. Well; the current population of the world is roughly 7.79 billion which,
at 30 minutes apiece, rounds out to 3.895 billion hours, or roughly
162,291,667 calendar days, which is equal to about 444,635 years.
Imagine that! And we're only talking about the current population.
Pity the folks at the back of the line. They'll have a long, long, very long wait
for their turn to face the music.
_
• Rev 20:11-12 . . I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from
whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no
place for them.
. . . And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books
were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and
the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works.
That's an interesting scene. Only the dead are made to appear before the
throne, no living are mentioned there at all.
Anyway, one day at work I mentioned to an associate that the number of
dead people that God has to judge who ever lived since Genesis will be
enormous. How will He ever get around to all of them? My friend replied:
Well, He has lots of time.
Let's say, arbitrarily, that the judgment of each of the dead takes a half
hour. Well; the current population of the world is roughly 7.79 billion which,
at 30 minutes apiece, rounds out to 3.895 billion hours, or roughly
162,291,667 calendar days, which is equal to about 444,635 years.
Imagine that! And we're only talking about the current population.
Pity the folks at the back of the line. They'll have a long, long, very long wait
for their turn to face the music.
_
Assumptions [catholics believe in assumptions]
You assume to pre-judge the Great White Throne judgement and say they are already damned.
You say this on the basis that the church does not figure in this judgement, you are right, I agree, we are in the first resurrection and are passed over from this judgement. But where you see condemnation I see the wider mercy.
The Great White Throne judgement is the goats and sheeps judgement of Matt. 25. and each person is not judged individually but they divided between the goats on the left and the sheep on the right.
You've already admitted that the sheep are not the church ... but they do receive an inheritance. They [imo] inherit the earth.
So you shoot yourself in the foot. The damned will not outnumber the saved.
You assume to pre-judge the Great White Throne judgement and say they are already damned.
You say this on the basis that the church does not figure in this judgement, you are right, I agree, we are in the first resurrection and are passed over from this judgement. But where you see condemnation I see the wider mercy.
The Great White Throne judgement is the goats and sheeps judgement of Matt. 25. and each person is not judged individually but they divided between the goats on the left and the sheep on the right.
You've already admitted that the sheep are not the church ... but they do receive an inheritance. They [imo] inherit the earth.
So you shoot yourself in the foot. The damned will not outnumber the saved.
.
God's codified law per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy is very
narrow, viz: any human sacrifice-- whether underage children or consenting
adults --is illegal because none are specified.
• Deut 4:2 …You shall not add anything to what I command you or take
anything away from it, but keep the commandments of the Lord your God
that I enjoin upon you.
• Deut 5:29-30 …Be careful, then, to do as the Lord your God has
commanded you. Do not turn aside to the right or to the left: follow only the
path that the Lord your God has enjoined upon you.
FAQ: That being the case, then how can a natural-born Jew take advantage
of Christ's crucifixion without breaching the covenant that his ancestors
agreed upon with God back in Moses' day?
A: The codified law isn't retroactive (Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, Gal
3:17) This is extremely important because Jesus was designated, and
scheduled, to give his life a sacrifice for the sins of the world not only prior
to God's codified law, but also prior to God creating even a single atom for
the current cosmos. (1Pet 1:18-21 & Rev 13:8)
The past-tense grammar of the passage below reflects that ancient pre
cosmos determination.
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own
way; and Jehovah has laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isa 53:6)
That passage isn't a prediction, rather, it's a statement of facts, i.e. a telling
of things reckoned already gone by prior to Isaiah writing them down more
than 700 years before Christ was born.
_
God's codified law per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy is very
narrow, viz: any human sacrifice-- whether underage children or consenting
adults --is illegal because none are specified.
• Deut 4:2 …You shall not add anything to what I command you or take
anything away from it, but keep the commandments of the Lord your God
that I enjoin upon you.
• Deut 5:29-30 …Be careful, then, to do as the Lord your God has
commanded you. Do not turn aside to the right or to the left: follow only the
path that the Lord your God has enjoined upon you.
FAQ: That being the case, then how can a natural-born Jew take advantage
of Christ's crucifixion without breaching the covenant that his ancestors
agreed upon with God back in Moses' day?
A: The codified law isn't retroactive (Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, Gal
3:17) This is extremely important because Jesus was designated, and
scheduled, to give his life a sacrifice for the sins of the world not only prior
to God's codified law, but also prior to God creating even a single atom for
the current cosmos. (1Pet 1:18-21 & Rev 13:8)
The past-tense grammar of the passage below reflects that ancient pre
cosmos determination.
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own
way; and Jehovah has laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isa 53:6)
That passage isn't a prediction, rather, it's a statement of facts, i.e. a telling
of things reckoned already gone by prior to Isaiah writing them down more
than 700 years before Christ was born.
_
.
Not much is known about the courtroom scene depicted at Rev 20:11-15.
But what if its procedures follow the rule below?
• Deut 17:6-7 . . At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he
that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he
shall not be put to death.
If so, then before people are put to death in the lake of fire, witnesses will
be called to testify; and suppose-- just supposing --that we will have to
testify against some of our friends, associates, and our very own loved ones;
thus becoming instrumental in their execution.
It's relatively painless to talk about the few and the many in an academic
environment; but when the people we know and love fall in among the
many, the discussions move from bull sessions to sobering prospects.
There's a very good chance that some of us will have to watch when our
friends and loved ones become utterly frightened out of their wits as the
grim reality of their fate begins to sink in. Some will be shrieking, yelping,
and sobbing; crying like little girls and bellowing like wounded dogs with
wild eyes darting about looking for something, for anyone, for anything, to
clutch and cling to as they're dragged off in the grip of powerful spirit beings
to be thrown alive into a smoldering pool of molten sulfur.
And who will give the order? Non other than the sweet little babe away in a
manger.
•Acts 17:31 . .God has set a day when He will judge the world with justice
by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by
raising him from the dead.
_
Not much is known about the courtroom scene depicted at Rev 20:11-15.
But what if its procedures follow the rule below?
• Deut 17:6-7 . . At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he
that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he
shall not be put to death.
If so, then before people are put to death in the lake of fire, witnesses will
be called to testify; and suppose-- just supposing --that we will have to
testify against some of our friends, associates, and our very own loved ones;
thus becoming instrumental in their execution.
It's relatively painless to talk about the few and the many in an academic
environment; but when the people we know and love fall in among the
many, the discussions move from bull sessions to sobering prospects.
There's a very good chance that some of us will have to watch when our
friends and loved ones become utterly frightened out of their wits as the
grim reality of their fate begins to sink in. Some will be shrieking, yelping,
and sobbing; crying like little girls and bellowing like wounded dogs with
wild eyes darting about looking for something, for anyone, for anything, to
clutch and cling to as they're dragged off in the grip of powerful spirit beings
to be thrown alive into a smoldering pool of molten sulfur.
And who will give the order? Non other than the sweet little babe away in a
manger.
•Acts 17:31 . .God has set a day when He will judge the world with justice
by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by
raising him from the dead.
_
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Quite true! Jesus said:
"And someone asked Him, “Lord, will only a few be saved [from the penalties of the last judgment]?” And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door [continuing in faith and forcing aside unbelief and the attractions of sin]; for many, I tell you, will try to enter [by their own works] and will not be able."
"And someone asked Him, “Lord, will only a few be saved [from the penalties of the last judgment]?” And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door [continuing in faith and forcing aside unbelief and the attractions of sin]; for many, I tell you, will try to enter [by their own works] and will not be able."
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.
The lake of fire depicted at Rev 20:11-15 consists of brimstone (Rev 21:8)
which basically consists of sulfur; an element that melts at 232.36º F
and boils at 832.28º F.
The vapors emitted by sulfur are very toxic; so that the reservoir will suffice
for both a gas chamber and a crematorium where the remains of the dead
will be preserved intact as perpetual nourishment for a curious species of
fire-proof worm as per Isa 66:23-24 and Mark 9:47-48.
If true that peoples' bodies won't burn up in the lake, then by the time the
judgment is all done, the lake will have the appearance of an apple bobbing
tub with all those remains floating around in it.
FAQ: What's to prevent the sulfur from finally all vaporizing and burning up?
A: It's my guess that God has an endless stockpile of the stuff on hand that
He can use to stoke the lake from time to time.
FAQ: I know how a water heater works, and a foundry. Won't the lake require a
source of heating sufficient to keep the lake hot enough to vaporize and/or
boil sulfur?
A: The most abundant source of energy in the cosmos is light. Its radiant
energy is well known by just about anybody who's ever been out in the
summer sunshine for too long a time. And ask a professional welder what
electric arc light does to unprotected eyes and skin.
An interesting thing about light is that most of its heat is produced by
portions of the spectrum not visible to the human eye, e.g. infrared, ultra
violet, gamma rays, high energy X-rays, and microwaves.
Well; there is an eternal source of light in Heaven that no man has ever
seen, nor can see, nor approach (1Tim 6:16). Were that light to be
harnessed in some way to heat the lake of fire; I rather suspect it would be
quite adequate to keep sulfur in a lethal state.
_
The lake of fire depicted at Rev 20:11-15 consists of brimstone (Rev 21:8)
which basically consists of sulfur; an element that melts at 232.36º F
and boils at 832.28º F.
The vapors emitted by sulfur are very toxic; so that the reservoir will suffice
for both a gas chamber and a crematorium where the remains of the dead
will be preserved intact as perpetual nourishment for a curious species of
fire-proof worm as per Isa 66:23-24 and Mark 9:47-48.
If true that peoples' bodies won't burn up in the lake, then by the time the
judgment is all done, the lake will have the appearance of an apple bobbing
tub with all those remains floating around in it.
FAQ: What's to prevent the sulfur from finally all vaporizing and burning up?
A: It's my guess that God has an endless stockpile of the stuff on hand that
He can use to stoke the lake from time to time.
FAQ: I know how a water heater works, and a foundry. Won't the lake require a
source of heating sufficient to keep the lake hot enough to vaporize and/or
boil sulfur?
A: The most abundant source of energy in the cosmos is light. Its radiant
energy is well known by just about anybody who's ever been out in the
summer sunshine for too long a time. And ask a professional welder what
electric arc light does to unprotected eyes and skin.
An interesting thing about light is that most of its heat is produced by
portions of the spectrum not visible to the human eye, e.g. infrared, ultra
violet, gamma rays, high energy X-rays, and microwaves.
Well; there is an eternal source of light in Heaven that no man has ever
seen, nor can see, nor approach (1Tim 6:16). Were that light to be
harnessed in some way to heat the lake of fire; I rather suspect it would be
quite adequate to keep sulfur in a lethal state.
_
All cases, every person, every believer and unbeliever will be judged. God will judge the whole world before He comes.
Psa_9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
God will only know how to minister His wrath and vengeance if people have been judged. God will only know who are saved and who are unsaved unless all are judged and every case is decided.
Mat_12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat_10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
When Jesus comes every case will be decided or judged.
Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
only 2 resurrections
God must know who is part of the first and second because there isn't a 3rd or 4th.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Don't be fooled into thinking there will be multiple resurrections for second chances. once the judgement is finished every case is decided.
Psa_9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
God will only know how to minister His wrath and vengeance if people have been judged. God will only know who are saved and who are unsaved unless all are judged and every case is decided.
Mat_12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat_10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
When Jesus comes every case will be decided or judged.
Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
only 2 resurrections
God must know who is part of the first and second because there isn't a 3rd or 4th.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Don't be fooled into thinking there will be multiple resurrections for second chances. once the judgement is finished every case is decided.