Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[lamad]

Rev6:12 corresponds with Joel 2:31, and that passage states specifically, "BEFORE the GREAT [aspect of it]"... (note: not "before the DOTL" in its ENTIRETY, either, as some suggest);

Matthew 24:29-31 literally states *this* thing (described in *this* text) takes place "AFTER" the GREAT aspect of the Trib yrs is concluded (whereas something "BEFORE" the GREAT aspect of those years, would be "BEFORE the AoD" Jesus refers to in v.15,21... but this is speaking of AFTER that entire second half is concluded)


I'm not sure how you can possibly *equate* them, either time-wise or description/appearance-wise.






[and yes, I do believe the SEALS are all before the TRUMPETS and VIALS... with FOUR of the TRUMPETS being in the FIRST HALF (SEALS prior to THOSE), and THREE of the TRUMPETS being from MID-TRIB and following]

Sometimes in reading your posts, I wonder if you speak English!

I have shown BY SCRIPTURE that your theory of four trumpets coming before the midpoint is wacky. You have not shown your reasoning for this, but I am sure it is nothing more that human reasoning void of scriptural proof.

The very first thing Jesus said to me concerning Revelation was that I could find the "exact midpoint" clearly marked" in Revelation, and then I could find the ENTIRE 70th week "clearly marked" because God would use the same marker.

John has given us time stamps for His narrative:
42 month countdown from chapter 11:2 to the end of the week.
1260 day countdown from 11:3 to the end of the week.

Note, these two verses prove to a logical mind that they therefore MUST be very close to the exact midpoint. In truth, I think these two countdowns begin just 3 1/2 days BEFORE the exact midpoint.

Then in chapter 12, we have two more countdowns, these starting JUST AFTER the midpoint:
1260 days of fleeing (Fleeing because they just saw the abomination) and 3 1/2 "times" of protection.

These two verses prove chapter 12 is just AFTER the midpoint.

Finally we have 42 months of authority countdown starting after all the rest, because this countdown ends after all the rest, when Jesus returns.

You seem to want the midpoint somewhere in chapters 8 or 9. WRONG! There is not one hint of anything midpoint here.

Note, when a verse says before the Day of the Lord, of course that means before the START of the Day of the Lord.

 

[lamad]

Matthew 24:29 says the moon will not give it's light. In a lunar eclipse the moon doesn't shine brightly, it looks dim and red like blood. Acts 2:20 say this happens before Jesus returns.

Revelation 6:12 confirms that these signs come before Jesus returns with God's wrath.

I get it, you think Revelation is written in chronological order so this rendering of the scripture is impossible for you to accept?

I KNOW Revelation is written in order - Holy Spirit GOD GIVEN order. ANY theory that much change that order is immediately suspect and will be prove wrong. Oh, people have tried for years to prove out of order, but there is no proof because it IS in order.

 

[Runningman]

Yes they falsely believe and teach the book of Revelation is in chronological order, when it is taught in parallel teachings of same events

This false teaching binds the minds of readers from clearly understanding the Revelation, and allows for a false teaching of multiple accounts, when it's actually the same event (A Lie)

Revelation 6:15-17 & Revelation 11:18 below is a prime example of the parallel teaching, you see the same great day of wrath in both accounts

Revelation 6:15-17KJV
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 11:18KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Exactly. If it can be proven that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet are directly related to the return of Christ, which they can be, then you've proved your point. Effectively you have proven the pre-trib rapture to be a false doctrine.

 

[cv5]

A non-issue. 'Israeli believer in Jesus is not mentioned either.

Every astute Bible student knows who the intended audience is.....

Dan 9:24a,b
“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

Dan 9:27
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


Matt 24:15a,b
“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

 

[Truth7t7]

I KNOW Revelation is written in order - Holy Spirit GOD GIVEN order. ANY theory that much change that order is immediately suspect and will be prove wrong. Oh, people have tried for years to prove out of order, but there is no proof because it IS in order.

Revelation 6:15-17 & Revelation 11:18 below is a prime example of the "parallel teaching", you see the same great day of wrath in both accounts

Will you claim the "Wrath" seen below is two different events

Revelation 6:15-17KJV
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 11:18KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

Every astute Bible student knows who the intended audience is.....

Dan 9:24a,b
“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

Dan 9:27
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


Matt 24:15a,b
“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

There is no rocket science involved, the scripture is very clear

The question is asked, what will be the sign of the Second Coming and End Of This World

The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is devoted to answering the questions

As is clearly seen "Immediately After The Tribulation" the Second Coming and End Of This World Takes Place, 6th grade reading comprehension "Max"

Will you deny the simple and clear words of God below?

Matthew 24:3KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[presidente]

Every astute Bible student knows who the intended audience is.....

Dan 9:24a,b
“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

Dan 9:27
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


Matt 24:15a,b
“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

Except we are talking about Matthew 24, where Jesus is responding to a question from His own disciples.

 

[cv5]

Except we are talking about Matthew 24, where Jesus is responding to a question from His own disciples.

I just quoted Matthew 24 and linked it to a prophecy given only to Israel.
What's your problem man?

 

[lamad]

Exactly. If it can be proven that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet are directly related to the return of Christ, which they can be, then you've proved your point. Effectively you have proven the pre-trib rapture to be a false doctrine.

No, FALSE DOCTRINE. The 6th seal is sealing a book that, once all seals are opened reveals the trumpet judgments written inside the book, making it totally impossible to move that 6th seal anywhere. Of course one must have some basic understanding of the book to understand this.

ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit, will certainly be proven wrong.

It can really be proven that the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week.

 

[lamad]

Except we are talking about Matthew 24, where Jesus is responding to a question from His own disciples.

He was talking to Jewish men about their OWN age.

 

[Runningman]

No, FALSE DOCTRINE. The 6th seal is sealing a book that, once all seals are opened reveals the trumpet judgments written inside the book, making it totally impossible to move that 6th seal anywhere. Of course one must have some basic understanding of the book to understand this.

ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit, will certainly be proven wrong.

It can really be proven that the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week.

Last trumpet is the return of Christ, God's wrath on the wicked, the first resurrection, and the rapture.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

Revelation 11:15-18
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Runningman]

Last trumpet is the return of Christ, God's wrath on the wicked, the first resurrection, and the rapture.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

Revelation 11:15-18
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

To add to that:

Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, FALSE DOCTRINE. The 6th seal is sealing a book that, once all seals are opened reveals the trumpet judgments written inside the book, making it totally impossible to move that 6th seal anywhere. Of course one must have some basic understanding of the book to understand this.

ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit, will certainly be proven wrong.

It can really be proven that the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week.

Your Claim Of The 7th Trump Being Midpoint Tribulation Is "False"

The 7th Angel sounding is the (End Of This World) the Mystery Of God Is Finished, The Final Judgement Takes Place.

Revelation 10:7KJV
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15-19KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[lamad]

To add to that:

Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Does this mean that there will never be another trumpet sound during the millennial or on into eternity?

 

[lamad]

Last trumpet is the return of Christ, God's wrath on the wicked, the first resurrection, and the rapture.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

Revelation 11:15-18
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

People have been trying, unsuccessfully for many years to make the 7th angel in Revelation the "last" trump of Paul. It does not fit. The angels in Revelation are JUDGMENT trumpets. Judgement does not fit the rapture.
Paul tells us his rapture will come just before wrath, and in Rev, that would be the 7th seal, not the 7th trumpet.
There is ONE THING that happens at the 7th trumpet and it is written: the Kingdoms of the world change hands and ownership.

 

[cv5]

To add to that:

Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You had better do a study of trumpets my friend. The astute and diligent Bible student knows that there are many many trumpets and all kinds of different shouts and calls, all for various purposes and times.

Perhaps you should also consider that the book of Joshua & the battle of Jericho is a type and a microcosm and has parallels with the book of Revelation.......including the trumpets. Which has parallels with the fall feasts.

Joshua/Jesus taking Israel/the world by divinely decreed conquest.....

 

[Runningman]

Does this mean that there will never be another trumpet sound during the millennial or on into eternity?

What other trumpets are there after the 7th one? I'm not aware of any.

 

[Runningman]

People have been trying, unsuccessfully for many years to make the 7th angel in Revelation the "last" trump of Paul. It does not fit. The angels in Revelation are JUDGMENT trumpets. Judgement does not fit the rapture.
Paul tells us his rapture will come just before wrath, and in Rev, that would be the 7th seal, not the 7th trumpet.
There is ONE THING that happens at the 7th trumpet and it is written: the Kingdoms of the world change hands and ownership.

At the 7th and final trumpet Jesus regins forevermore, He reigns with the righteous, judges the wicked, and rewards His saints. The 7th trumpet is also the time of the post-tribulation rapture, and resurrection.

I've proved it with these verses. Good luck undoing what I just proved to you happens at the 7th trumpet.

Isaiah 27:13
Matthew 24:29-31
1 Corinthians 15:52
1 Thessalonians 4:16
Revelation 11:15-18

 

[Runningman]

You had better do a study of trumpets my friend.

Already have.

At the 7th and final trumpet Jesus regins forevermore, He reigns with the righteous, judges the wicked, and rewards His saints. The 7th trumpet is also the time of the post-tribulation rapture, and resurrection.

I've proved it with these verses. Good luck undoing what I just proved to you happens at the 7th trumpet.

Isaiah 27:13
Matthew 24:29-31
1 Corinthians 15:52
1 Thessalonians 4:16
Revelation 11:15-18

 

[lamad]

What other trumpets are there after the 7th one? I'm not aware of any.

Paul's Last trump is the last of a series that will be sounded WAY before the 7th trumpet. Why try and build a doctrine from one verse? Read ALL of Paul's writings on the rapture. It will come JUST before wrath. Do we throw that out because John wrote of 7 trumpets that would come later.

No, we don't throw out scripture, we UNDERSTAND it: Paul's rapture is just before wrath and in Revelation that would be just before the 6th seal. How amazing then, John saw the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter!