Judas

[reneweddaybyday]

It isn't Incendiary language to point out someone is wrong in their understanding of scripture.

In your Post #37, you went beyond pointing out your disagreement and you stooped to incendiary language in claiming that I am "ignoring Scripture", that I prefer to "levy due to personal reasons a charge of Blasphemy rather than think about that", that I "side with false accusation", that I "choose to ignore" Scripture, that I "lash out".

And you have not proven anyone is "wrong in their understanding of scripture". All you have done is state what you believe concerning what is written. It could be you are wrong in your understanding of Scripture.

 

[Whispered]

In your Post #37, you went beyond pointing out your disagreement and you stooped to incendiary language in claiming that I am "ignoring Scripture", that I prefer to "levy due to personal reasons a charge of Blasphemy rather than think about that", that I "side with false accusation", that I "choose to ignore" Scripture, that I "lash out".

And you have not proven anyone is "wrong in their understanding of scripture". All you have done is state what you believe concerning what is written. It could be you are wrong in your understanding of Scripture.

The scriptures concerning Judas are what we have to work with. All that is needed to arrive at a different opinion about Judas part in God's Salvific plan is to reckon the scriptures with reason.

 

[garee]

It isn't Incendiary language to point out someone is wrong in their understanding of scripture. Or that they've committed Eisegesis.
We are told scripture is for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness. If you're wrong, you're wrong. That's not incendiary. I've been wrong plenty of times. We learn from it if we care to.

I'm going to leave you to believe what you will, as I've said in my post: "And no, I'm not hoping someone will agree with me. I'm stating my point just as the rest of us are. "

My observations about Judas are not Blasphemy. This perspective concerning Judas that I share isn't new. Ignoring the links I've shared to support my view is also a choice.
You don't have to agree with that either. As I have said, I'm not hoping someone will agree with me. I'm stating my point just as the rest of us are. "

Blasphemy against the Son of man, Jesus (what the eyes see) is forgivable as it was with Peter in Mathew 16 when he attributed the works of Satan, forbidding the gospel from advancing. . .He rebuked Peter and reinstated him .

Today seeing the son of man,Jesus is no longer here The possibility of being forgiven is not there.

The key to understanding as to why just 12 of all the apostles were set aside excluding Judas is in found in Revelation 21. And the 12 tribes excluding the tribe of Dan The goal or pupose of the doctrine of twelve.. . as to how 12 is used.

 

[Whispered]

Blasphemy against the Son of man, Jesus (what the eyes see) is forgivable as it was with Peter in Mathew 16 when he attributed the works of Satan, forbidding the gospel from advancing. . .He rebuked Peter and reinstated him .

Today seeing the son of man,Jesus is no longer here The possibility of being forgiven is not there.

The key to understanding as to why just 12 of all the apostles were set aside excluding Judas is in found in Revelation 21. And the 12 tribes excluding the tribe of Dan The goal or pupose of the doctrine of twelve.. . as to how 12 is used.

I would think it an amazing expression of ego to imagine one is able to say whom is to be forgiven, while implying one is not.
Noting Judas part in the Salvific plan of God is not Blasphemy.
Claiming Judas could not be part of God's plan , given how Judas played that part, is. What human presumes to think their predisposition against Judas works to tell us that God must not have known what Judas would do and the part he would play. As well as that part that Satan , who can do nothing without God's permission, did play in the Salvific plan God appointed through His grace.
Who second guesses God and then makes accusations against one who points out all happened according to God's plan, and that then is labeled Blasphemy? How absurd.

The Book of Acts chapter 1 verse 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The scriptures concerning Judas are what we have to work with. All that is needed to arrive at a different opinion about Judas part in God's Salvific plan is to reckon the scriptures with reason.

For you to continue to insist that "were it not for [Judas] Jesus would not have been able to die as prophesied so as to take the worlds sins upon himself as the last perfect unblemished lamb" indicates you do not fully comprehend that descendants of Adam have no part in the salvation of mankind, other than to be the beneficiaries of God's grace and mercy.

That God is able to work despite what appears to be the most desperate of situations does not mean that God needs those desperate situations to accomplish His eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus from the foundation of the world.

God knows the end from the beginning. He knew that Judas would make covenant with the chief priests and elders to deliver Jesus to them for 30 pieces of silver (Matt 26:15). This does not mean that Judas was an integral part of the salvation of mankind. Judas played less than a minuscule part in the scheme of things.

We could hold up the woman who anointed Jesus with precious ointment (Matt 26:6-13, Mark 14:3-9). She was just as significant as Judas. However, if the woman had not anointed Jesus, would the salvation of mankind according to God's eternal purpose have been thwarted?

 

[Sipsey]

To think that God “needs” help from any human in history is to distort His omnipotence. If one can view human existence, in part, as a conclusion to the Angelic conflict, it helps in sorting through Scripture.

 

[posthuman]

Satan entered into him

this is a really important fact. Satan entered Judas. that's not said about anyone else in all of scripture. we should fall out of chairs when we read that, and go 'wow!' IMO
so at Gethsemane, we're not looking at merely 'what Judas did' etc --- we're looking at what Satan, in Judas, does.

what did Satan expect to happen? why does he have a mob of armed men with him?

we've got the LORD God Almighty inhabiting human form in the person of Jesus being approached by Satan inhabiting the human Judas Iscariot. this is way more than a thieving tag-along apostle with some screwed-up ideas about the purpose of the Messiah, trying to make an extra pile of silver. this is Matthew 4, round two. it's the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman. it's the foreshadow of what will happen in the last days, when the beast and the false prophet make war against the Lord & He destroys them with the brightness of His appearing.

we can't just look at Gethsemane and try to sort out, what was Judas thinking -- Judas at this time isn't just a man; he is indwelt by the Evil One himself. what is Satan thinking, how much does Satan know at this time, what is Satan's intention? does he know who Jesus really is? does he expect to prevail, or to fail? prevail at what?

when does Satan leave Judas? throwing the coins back to the priests, hanging himself -- is this Satan too?

 

[BillG]

Betrayal means that someone you trust as a friend turns out to be your enemy and stabs you in the back. However in the case of Jesus and Judas, even though Jesus called him "friend" in Gethsemane (and he was supposed to be more than a friend) Christ already knew on the day He selected Judas as one of His disciples, that this man was a devil and the Son of Perdition, and would in fact betray Him. That Satan would possess his soul so that he would sell Christ to his enemies for thirty pieces of silver (which he later regretted but failed to truly repent and ask forgiveness from the Lord). In fact Christ sent him on his way to do his dastardly betrayal while the rest of the apostles remained in the Upper Room.

Jesus and His apostles were in the garden of Gethsemane at night, and those who came to take Him captive could not have known exactly who He was unless He was properly identified by one who knew Him intimately. And this is where Judas played the role of betrayer.

There are some Christians today that fail to understand that Judas was already doomed to Hell by his own heart and his attitude. He was already stealing from the common treasury of the disciples. And he had never really believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise he could not have betrayed Him.

I agree with what you say above.

My understanding that as a zealot Judas was looking for a Messiah that would overthrow Rome and re-establish Israel.

When Jesus made it clear that this was not the case then Judas want about his course in the hope that it would force Jesus to prove that he was the promised Messiah according to his beliefs as a zealot.

I don't struggle with what Judas did but I do think that someone had to do it.
If so did God predermin someone to do it.

Given the Jewish thinking of the time.
It must have come from somewhere.

I settle this with me in the fact that God knows everything, from the beginning of time to the end. Therefore he knew the heart of Judas.

He didn't listen to Jesus, didn't accept what he did in his ministry.

God knew.

Zechariah 11:12-13
12 Then I said to them, “If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.” So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter.

 

[Whispered]

For those who may be interested in how deeply Judas played his role in God's Salvific plan I offer this linked article. While I am not a follower of John Piper I do agree, as the Billy Graham foundation apparently did, that this article is a valuable resource for any Christian's Apologetics study.
The Fall of Satan and the Victory of Christ
...“God permitted Satan’s fall, not because he was helpless to stop it, but because he had a purpose for it.”

....“In the end, Satan serves to magnify the power, wisdom, love, grace, mercy, patience, and wrath of Jesus Christ.”

.....“Satan is the ‘ruler of this world,’ but God, the ultimate ruler, holds final sway.”

 

[Whispered]

I agree with what you say above.

My understanding that as a zealot Judas was looking for a Messiah that would overthrow Rome and re-establish Israel.

When Jesus made it clear that this was not the case then Judas want about his course in the hope that it would force Jesus to prove that he was the promised Messiah according to his beliefs as a zealot.

I don't struggle with what Judas did but I do think that someone had to do it.
If so did God predermin someone to do it.

Given the Jewish thinking of the time.
It must have come from somewhere.

I settle this with me in the fact that God knows everything, from the beginning of time to the end. Therefore he knew the heart of Judas.

He didn't listen to Jesus, didn't accept what he did in his ministry.

God knew.

Zechariah 11:12-13
12 Then I said to them, “If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.” So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter.

You are aware there were two different Judas' in scripture?