Judas

[pottersclay]

He didn't. Judas did exactly as planned by God. Even Jesus knew this when He told Judas to go and do what he had to do quickly, when He was in the upper room after sharing the last supper with His Disciples. That included Judas.


Jesus would have not been nailed to the cross were it not for Judas. Jesus was God in flesh. He chose Judas knowing who he was from the beginning as one who would help Jesus fulfill His mission on earth; to die and take the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross.
The Book of Luke chapter 22 This is why Judas shared in the last supper prior to leaving, as Jesus instructed him to do min you, and telling the temple guard where to find Him later in the garden of Gethsemane.
Judas actually repented of his sin, see the Book of Matthew chapter 27. And then he hanged himself because he could not bear to live with what he'd done.
However, remember on the cross? Jesus forgave everyone responsible for His being there? That would include Judas. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
That would include Judas because he did not know until after at Jesus arrest that he had betrayed innocent blood. Remember, the elders of the temple wanted Jesus arrested. And sought to have him executed by Rome, because it was too close to Passover for them to stone Jesus to death under the charge of blasphemy, so they sought Rome's assistance to execute Jesus under the charge of sedition.
See the Book of Luke chapter 23: Then the whole company of them arose and brought him before Pilate. 2 And they began to accuse him, saying, “We found this man misleading our nation and forbidding us to give tribute to Caesar, and saying that he himself is Christ, a king.”

Who would have insured Jesus died so as to take the sins of the world upon Himself on the last sin altar? Were it not for Judas, the elders of the temple, Pilate, the people who rallied for Barabbas to be freed rather than Jesus? How else would Jesus purpose been accomplished?



As an aside, did you know that in Islam they teach that it was not Isa(Jesus) who was executed on the cross but Judas?

Well scripture disagrees with your viewpoint on Judas. In fact it was prophesied on that event.

 

[Whispered]

Well scripture disagrees with your viewpoint on Judas. In fact it was prophesied on that event.

Well, we know what was written in judgment about the event. And yes, it was prophesied. Which begs the question behind all of that, since it was a prophecy.

Why should Judas be condemned when were it not for him Jesus would not have been able to die as prophesied so as to take the worlds sins upon himself as the last perfect unblemished lamb, sacrificed on the last sin altar?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Why should Judas be condemned when were it not for him Jesus would not have been able to die as prophesied so as to take the worlds sins upon himself as the last perfect unblemished lamb, sacrificed on the last sin altar?

Good thing Judas came along or the redemption of mankind could not have been accomplished [/sarc]

Seriously Whispered ... do you really believe that " were it not for him [Judas] Jesus would not have been able to die as prophesied so as to take the worlds sins upon himself as the last perfect unblemished lamb, sacrificed on the last sin altar "?

Judas was God's only option to accomplish redemption for mankind???

 

[Whispered]

Good thing Judas came along or the redemption of mankind could not have been accomplished [/sarc]

Seriously Whispered ... do you really believe that " were it not for him [Judas] Jesus would not have been able to die as prophesied so as to take the worlds sins upon himself as the last perfect unblemished lamb, sacrificed on the last sin altar "?

Judas was God's only option to accomplish redemption for mankind???

Did Jesus die on the cross after Judas turned Him over to the one's who wanted Jesus dead?

 

[Sipsey]

He didn't. Judas did exactly as planned by God. Even Jesus knew this when He told Judas to go and do what he had to do quickly, when He was in the upper room after sharing the last supper with His Disciples. That included Judas.


Jesus would have not been nailed to the cross were it not for Judas. Jesus was God in flesh. He chose Judas knowing who he was from the beginning as one who would help Jesus fulfill His mission on earth; to die and take the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross.
The Book of Luke chapter 22 This is why Judas shared in the last supper prior to leaving, as Jesus instructed him to do min you, and telling the temple guard where to find Him later in the garden of Gethsemane.
Judas actually repented of his sin, see the Book of Matthew chapter 27. And then he hanged himself because he could not bear to live with what he'd done.
However, remember on the cross? Jesus forgave everyone responsible for His being there? That would include Judas. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
That would include Judas because he did not know until after at Jesus arrest that he had betrayed innocent blood. Remember, the elders of the temple wanted Jesus arrested. And sought to have him executed by Rome, because it was too close to Passover for them to stone Jesus to death under the charge of blasphemy, so they sought Rome's assistance to execute Jesus under the charge of sedition.
See the Book of Luke chapter 23: Then the whole company of them arose and brought him before Pilate. 2 And they began to accuse him, saying, “We found this man misleading our nation and forbidding us to give tribute to Caesar, and saying that he himself is Christ, a king.”

Who would have insured Jesus died so as to take the sins of the world upon Himself on the last sin altar? Were it not for Judas, the elders of the temple, Pilate, the people who rallied for Barabbas to be freed rather than Jesus? How else would Jesus purpose been accomplished?



As an aside, did you know that in Islam they teach that it was not Isa(Jesus) who was executed on the cross but Judas?

“Judas actually repented of his sin, see the Book of Matthew chapter 27. And then he hanged himself because he could not bear to live with what he'd done.”

You say Judas repented, and he did but there are several Greek words used to distinguish between types of repentance and the verse you refer to uses the word (3338)- μεταμέλομαι Metamélomai; fut. metamelḗsomai, from Metá (3326), denoting change of place or condition, and mélomai, mid. of mélō

which is defined as; To repent, it expresses the mere desire that what is done may be undone, accompanied with regrets or even remorse, but with No effective change of heart. Metaméleia (which does not occur in the NT) is An ineffective repentance for which the forgiveness of sins is not promised (as it is for Metánoia [3341], repentance, see Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3; Ac 2:38). Metamélomai, on the part of man, means little or nothing more than A selfish dread of the consequence of what one has done, whereas Metanoéō means regret and forsaking the evil by A change of heart brought about by God's Spirit.

 

[Magenta]

Good thing Judas came along or the redemption of mankind could not have been accomplished [/sarc]

Seriously Whispered ... do you really believe that " were it not for him [Judas] Jesus would not have been able to die as prophesied so as to take the worlds sins upon himself as the last perfect unblemished lamb, sacrificed on the last sin altar "?

Judas was God's only option to accomplish redemption for mankind???

Jesus called Judas the son of perdition, meaning he was doomed to destruction. How vile to promote as some do that Judas was saved, when he was unclean. In my view, to say Judas was doing the will of God when Satan entered into him, verges on blasphemy, if it isn't outright.

 

[garee]

“Judas actually repented of his sin, see the Book of Matthew chapter 27. And then he hanged himself because he could not bear to live with what he'd done.”

You say Judas repented, and he did but there are several Greek words used to distinguish between types of repentance and the verse you refer to uses the word (3338)- μεταμέλομαι Metamélomai; fut. metamelḗsomai, from Metá (3326), denoting change of place or condition, and mélomai, mid. of mélō

which is defined as; To repent, it expresses the mere desire that what is done may be undone, accompanied with regrets or even remorse, but with No effective change of heart. Metaméleia (which does not occur in the NT) is An ineffective repentance for which the forgiveness of sins is not promised (as it is for Metánoia [3341], repentance, see Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3; Ac 2:38). Metamélomai, on the part of man, means little or nothing more than A selfish dread of the consequence of what one has done, whereas Metanoéō means regret and forsaking the evil by A change of heart brought about by God's Spirit.

The scriptures do not reveal whether or not Judas repented because God turned to him with forgiveness or he was following after the father of lies a murderer from the beginning , as self murder. His neck was broken which is also referred to as "falling back or backward" in judgement

Interestingly the 12 a remnant of all the apostles (27 listed in the new) were set aside to be used as a metaphor describing the bride of Christ prepared as a city of Christians a word that literally meaning residents of the city of Christ named after her founder Christ. . (Revelation 21)

The apostle Judas removed from the description of the new testament believers signified as 12. replaced with Matthias. The word twelve the key to understanding. . why Judas.

In the Old testament the tribe of Dan. Tribes represents gates of the city prepared as the wife of Christ. Dan is missing in the same way as Judas .

Dan which means Jehovah is Judge represents the letter of the law . . death .It can be seen in the parable below.

Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

Fall backward , break neck or fall away in judgement signifying death is used in many places in that way.

John 18:4-6 King James Version (KJV) Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Judas is used to represent those in Hebrews 6, tasted, shared and fell backward called fall away,

Hebrew 6: 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1 Samuel 4 :18 And it came to pass, when he made mention of the ark of God, that he fell from off the seat backward by the side of the gate, and his neck brake, and he died: for he was an old man, and heavy. And he had judged Israel forty years.

The gospel hid in a parable in respect to a ceremonial law which was applied to the false prophet false apostle Balaam. Showing the authority of the written law proving . . using a Ass as a unclean animal to represent no faith in God. Natural unconverted mankind

Exodus 34:20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

It would seem the only good reason. God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form this is why 12 were set apart from the whole. Again 27 listed sent ones .

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Did Jesus die on the cross after Judas turned Him over to the one's who wanted Jesus dead?

Hear the words of Jesus:

Matthew 26:

48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.

49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


Hear more words from Jesus:

John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

In my view, to say Judas was doing the will of God when Satan entered into him, verges on blasphemy, if it isn't outright.

Right ... in fact, if satan and his minions had known the mystery which was hid in God from the foundation of the world, satan would never have crucified the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

[heh]

 

[Whispered]

“Judas actually repented of his sin, see the Book of Matthew chapter 27. And then he hanged himself because he could not bear to live with what he'd done.”

You say Judas repented, and he did but there are several Greek words used to distinguish between types of repentance and the verse you refer to uses the word (3338)- μεταμέλομαι Metamélomai; fut. metamelḗsomai, from Metá (3326), denoting change of place or condition, and mélomai, mid. of mélō

which is defined as; To repent, it expresses the mere desire that what is done may be undone, accompanied with regrets or even remorse, but with No effective change of heart. Metaméleia (which does not occur in the NT) is An ineffective repentance for which the forgiveness of sins is not promised (as it is for Metánoia [3341], repentance, see Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3; Ac 2:38). Metamélomai, on the part of man, means little or nothing more than A selfish dread of the consequence of what one has done, whereas Metanoéō means regret and forsaking the evil by A change of heart brought about by God's Spirit.

Satan is the son of perdition/destruction. Just to get that out of the way. Likely that is why it becomes confusing in our studies of this passage in the Bible. Because Judas had Satan within him, we think "son of perdition" refers to Judas. When in fact Satan is the son of perdition and it was to that one the scripture refers since he was indwelling Judas. Not being a reference unto Judas as the son of perdition.

What if we've been misunderstanding Judas all along?
Can Satan do anything he wants? Or is he limited by what the supreme power of God allows him to do? Remember Job. Remember the Book of Deuteronomy 32:39 . God rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom He will. The Book of Daniel chapter 4. The counsel of God stand forever. Psalm 33. [Satan Always Asks Permission Seven Ways God Reigns over Evil ]

What if Satan, in the two verses in Matthew and both prior to Judas going to the temple to betray Jesus to them there, entered Judas not because he wasn't strong in his faith to Jesus. But so that Satan could make Judas do what Jesus himself told Judas to do, and do it quickly? Help the temple's guards in identifying Jesus when He arrived at the Garden of Gethsemane?

Jesus chose Judas to be His disciple long before the betrayal. Are we to believe Jesus didn't know Judas future? And how it would coincide with His mission to the people of the earth? Can we say Judas surprised Jesus with his betrayal? No. Because Jesus even at the table during the last supper spoke of the one who would betray Him. But then He told that one to go and do it.

Do we really think if Jesus didn't want this to happen that he would have done that?
And that is why Judas was filled with repentance, because we cannot rightly say Judas wasn't remorseful and repentant in a manner wherein he would change his life. He did in fact change it, the course of it, when he took himself out of his life through self-murder. His words, I have betrayed innocent blood, indicating the realization of his actions. Making also for the fact that Judas was not ever to sin again being he killed himself.

And can we hold Judas responsible for those when Satan was in him leading him to act?

Further, blasphemy claimants not withstanding, when Jesus asked God to forgive "them" for they know not what they do, are we able to prove Judas was not among those Jesus meant for forgiveness? In light especially of the fact of the scripture that tells us, cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree. The book of Galatians chapter 3 verse 13 .

Jesus was hung on a tree in the sense he was crucified on the cross. And Judas did hang himself from a tree. Both would have known what that meant. Jesus certainly , and Judas as well.

The account of Judas in Matthew tells us, he did not know what he was doing when he went to the temple to betray Jesus, as we know because of the epiphany of his realizing he'd betrayed innocent blood afterward.

Also, and no one seeks to answer this question though it has been asked more than once: how else would Jesus have died for the sins of the world had he not been crucified? And how did that come to pass?

When we think of Satan taking someone over we think that he is doing this meaning that person ill will. Because Satan is God's adversary. Why would Satan do anything that would first benefit all humankind, and secondly, fulfill the reason for the birth of Jesus in the first place?

Satan , by entering Judas, did not thwart God's plan for Jesus but led to it being accomplished.

Perhaps we might consider that Judas was part of God's plan. Rather than getting defensive, why not consider God's plan for delivering His new covenant to the world, blood must be spilled to seal a new covenant, as we know, that Judas was part of that plan.

How do we get upset at the thought? When the question remains. Jesus being born to take the sins of the world upon Himself, how would it be accomplished otherwise? Speculation to that effect is a waste of time. What actually transpired according to the God who intended to deliver His grace to the world is what matters. And what is.

Therein maybe we can reconsider Judas.
For otherwise, as all things unfolded by the counsel of God who is eternal and sovereign over His creation, can we dare claim Jesus crucifixion did not occur as God intended? And according to His divine plan?

If not for the temple elders wanting Jesus to pay for what they judged as His blasphemy, were it not for Judas who delivered Jesus for arrest to satisfy that desire for the ultimate price being paid for that alleged blasphemy, would Jesus have otherwise died so as to fulfill the prophecy of Messiah and take the sins of the world upon Himself? And therein seal a new covenant ?

If someone is still of the mind to charge me with, how dare you say that? That JUDAS was part of God's plan of Salvation for the world! I'd respond now by asking, what does the Bible tell us about how Go went about fulfilling His will in His plan of Salvation for the world?

Can we say God is sovereign and then claim, there had to be another way for Jesus to die?
Of course not.

 

[Whispered]

Hear the words of Jesus:

Matthew 26:

48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.

49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


Hear more words from Jesus:

John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Precisely! Thank you.

 

[Whispered]

Right ... in fact, if satan and his minions had known the mystery which was hid in God from the foundation of the world, satan would never have crucified the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

[heh]

Some versions have it as, "rulers" of this world. That isn't Satan that is being referred to there. LINK

 

[pottersclay]

Satan is the son of perdition/destruction. Just to get that out of the way. Likely that is why it becomes confusing in our studies of this passage in the Bible. Because Judas had Satan within him, we think "son of perdition" refers to Judas. When in fact Satan is the son of perdition and it was to that one the scripture refers since he was indwelling Judas. Not being a reference unto Judas as the son of perdition.

What if we've been misunderstanding Judas all along?
Can Satan do anything he wants? Or is he limited by what the supreme power of God allows him to do? Remember Job. Remember the Book of Deuteronomy 32:39 . God rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom He will. The Book of Daniel chapter 4. The counsel of God stand forever. Psalm 33. [Satan Always Asks Permission Seven Ways God Reigns over Evil ]

What if Satan, in the two verses in Matthew and both prior to Judas going to the temple to betray Jesus to them there, entered Judas not because he wasn't strong in his faith to Jesus. But so that Satan could make Judas do what Jesus himself told Judas to do, and do it quickly? Help the temple's guards in identifying Jesus when He arrived at the Garden of Gethsemane?

Jesus chose Judas to be His disciple long before the betrayal. Are we to believe Jesus didn't know Judas future? And how it would coincide with His mission to the people of the earth? Can we say Judas surprised Jesus with his betrayal? No. Because Jesus even at the table during the last supper spoke of the one who would betray Him. But then He told that one to go and do it.

Do we really think if Jesus didn't want this to happen that he would have done that?
And that is why Judas was filled with repentance, because we cannot rightly say Judas wasn't remorseful and repentant in a manner wherein he would change his life. He did in fact change it, the course of it, when he took himself out of his life through self-murder. His words, I have betrayed innocent blood, indicating the realization of his actions. Making also for the fact that Judas was not ever to sin again being he killed himself.

And can we hold Judas responsible for those when Satan was in him leading him to act?

Further, blasphemy claimants not withstanding, when Jesus asked God to forgive "them" for they know not what they do, are we able to prove Judas was not among those Jesus meant for forgiveness? In light especially of the fact of the scripture that tells us, cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree. The book of Galatians chapter 3 verse 13 .

Jesus was hung on a tree in the sense he was crucified on the cross. And Judas did hang himself from a tree. Both would have known what that meant. Jesus certainly , and Judas as well.

The account of Judas in Matthew tells us, he did not know what he was doing when he went to the temple to betray Jesus, as we know because of the epiphany of his realizing he'd betrayed innocent blood afterward.

Also, and no one seeks to answer this question though it has been asked more than once: how else would Jesus have died for the sins of the world had he not been crucified? And how did that come to pass?

When we think of Satan taking someone over we think that he is doing this meaning that person ill will. Because Satan is God's adversary. Why would Satan do anything that would first benefit all humankind, and secondly, fulfill the reason for the birth of Jesus in the first place?

Satan , by entering Judas, did not thwart God's plan for Jesus but led to it being accomplished.

Perhaps we might consider that Judas was part of God's plan. Rather than getting defensive, why not consider God's plan for delivering His new covenant to the world, blood must be spilled to seal a new covenant, as we know, that Judas was part of that plan.

How do we get upset at the thought? When the question remains. Jesus being born to take the sins of the world upon Himself, how would it be accomplished otherwise? Speculation to that effect is a waste of time. What actually transpired according to the God who intended to deliver His grace to the world is what matters. And what is.

Therein maybe we can reconsider Judas.
For otherwise, as all things unfolded by the counsel of God who is eternal and sovereign over His creation, can we dare claim Jesus crucifixion did not occur as God intended? And according to His divine plan?

If not for the temple elders wanting Jesus to pay for what they judged as His blasphemy, were it not for Judas who delivered Jesus for arrest to satisfy that desire for the ultimate price being paid for that alleged blasphemy, would Jesus have otherwise died so as to fulfill the prophecy of Messiah and take the sins of the world upon Himself? And therein seal a new covenant ?

If someone is still of the mind to charge me with, how dare you say that? That JUDAS was part of God's plan of Salvation for the world! I'd respond now by asking, what does the Bible tell us about how Go went about fulfilling His will in His plan of Salvation for the world?

Can we say God is sovereign and then claim, there had to be another way for Jesus to die?
Of course not.

John 6:67-71 ESV / 56 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

 

[pottersclay]

John 18 English Standard Version (ESV)
Betrayal and Arrest of Jesus
18 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went out with his disciples across the brook Kidron, where there was a garden, which he and his disciples entered. 2 Now Judas, who betrayed him, also knew the place, for Jesus often met there with his disciples. 3 So Judas, having procured a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, went there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” 5 They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.”[a] Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. 6 When Jesus[b] said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 So he asked them again, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.” 8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go.” 9 This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.” 10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant[c] and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.) 11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”

Why does John seem to have a different account?......no kiss but Jesus identifying himself.

 

[garee]

John 18 English Standard Version (ESV)
Betrayal and Arrest of Jesus
18 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went out with his disciples across the brook Kidron, where there was a garden, which he and his disciples entered. 2 Now Judas, who betrayed him, also knew the place, for Jesus often met there with his disciples. 3 So Judas, having procured a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, went there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” 5 They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.”[a] Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. 6 When Jesus[b] said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 So he asked them again, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.” 8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go.” 9 This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.” 10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant[c] and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.) 11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”

Why does John seem to have a different account?......no kiss but Jesus identifying himself.

No reference of laying on hands like the Mathew account either . The striking of the sword cutting off the ear is not mentioned in John . Just as Mathew does not mention falling back. Falling back or backward is a key metaphor to understand why 12 apostles with Judas removed and 12 tribes with Dan removed. Sometimes mixing the two can give a broader gospel understanding

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Precisely! Thank you.

What we see in the words of Jesus is that He laid His life down ... and His laying His life down had nothing to do with Judas. The redemption of mankind was not dependent upon Judas or, as you claim in Post #22 "were it not for him Jesus would not have been able to die as prophesied".

If someone is still of the mind to charge me with, how dare you say that? That JUDAS was part of God's plan of Salvation for the world! I'd respond now by asking, what does the Bible tell us about how Go went about fulfilling His will in His plan of Salvation for the world?

Can we say God is sovereign and then claim, there had to be another way for Jesus to die?
Of course not.

God is sovereign whether Judas betrayed Jesus or did not betray Jesus.

What you are now saying it was God's will that Judas be possessed ... otherwise no redemption for mankind. When someone is possessed by satan that is God's desire??? God knowing the end from the beginning and having prophets prophesy concerning things to come is not the same as it is God's will that Judas be possessed ... otherwise Jesus would not have died.

We already know the chief priests, elders, pharisees, sadducees were after Jesus. They preferred to release the murderer, Barabbas (But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus - Matt 27:20). Are you going to excuse them also?

Some versions have it as, "rulers" of this world. That isn't Satan that is being referred to there.

satan is the prince of the power of the air ... the spirit that works in the children of disobedience. If satan would have known the mystery which was hid in God from the foundation of the world, satan never would have killed the Lord of glory. Back in Genesis 3:15, God told satan that he would bruise the heel of Messiah but that Messiah would bruise the head of satan.

satan thought he was doing himself a favor in getting rid of the Lord Jesus Christ (even though Jesus willingly laid His life down and satan did not take it from Him). satan did not realize that the Lord Jesus Christ would rise in victory, ascend into heaven leading captivity captive. satan is filled with wrath because he knows he has only a short time.

The church (the body of Christ over which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head) now exhibit God's manifold wisdom:

Ephesians 3:

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.


We exhibit God's manifold wisdom through the fellowship of the mystery ... hid in God from the foundation of the world ... in our Lord Jesus Christ we have boldness and access with confidence to the very throne room of God ... the very presence of our Heavenly Father!!! How magnificent is that?

 

[Whispered]

What we see in the words of Jesus is that He laid His life down ... and His laying His life down had nothing to do with Judas. The redemption of mankind was not dependent upon Judas or, as you claim in Post #22 "were it not for him Jesus would not have been able to die as prophesied".

No Christian, and certainly not this one, is unaware Jesus laid His life down for the people of the world, taking their sins upon Himself on the cross.
What appears to be ignored in this particular case and for some reason unknown to me for this exception, is that it was all part of God's plan. From beginning to end. As every Christian knows or should know.

Whether one likes it or not, or prefers to levy due to personal reasons a charge of Blasphemy rather than think about that, matters little. What should matter to those who side with that false accusation is that we cannot in good conscience claim to believe we believe the scriptures as written and then choose to ignore that when scripture says all things are as God plans, we deny that because of one man in that plan; Judas.
The other thing that some may not realize is that God's finger did not write the Gospels. The Gospels were written largely by anonymous sources, men. Though the Gospel of Matthew is said by some to have been by Matthew's own hand.
Though not one of the Gospels tells us who was its author and therefore that is as a matter of Apologetic history alone credited then as anonymous authors.
And they were written some decades after Christ. (Note: This is referring to the Gospels. Not the Epistles)

And each one gives a different account of this particular matter, as has been discussed in the posts above. That is because they are all from the unique and different perspective accounts of the Apostles. This is also why studying beyond what is written in scripture helps in matters of proper Exegesis. And therein avoids the trouble and confusion that arrives as Eisegesis .

Judas was part of God's plan. If someone wishes to lash at that statement repeated here again, consider answering the question that remains ignored; how would Jesus have fulfilled God's plan otherwise were it not for Judas being part of it?
The answer never comes and that's because it is irrelevant. What matters is what is; Judas, whom Jesus chose to be one of his Disciples, who was at the last supper with his brother Disciples was whom Jesus knew as the one that would "betray" Him, when in reality, it was the last step to Jesus fulfilling His God anointed destiny as Savior.

And no, I'm not hoping someone will agree with me. I'm stating my point just as the rest of us are.

God is sovereign whether Judas betrayed Jesus or did not betray Jesus.

That was never at issue in my posts here.

What you are now saying it was God's will that Judas be possessed ... otherwise no redemption for mankind. When someone is possessed by satan that is God's desire??? God knowing the end from the beginning and having prophets prophesy concerning things to come is not the same as it is God's will that Judas be possessed ... otherwise Jesus would not have died.

I think a study of Job would help you.

We already know the chief priests, elders, pharisees, sadducees were after Jesus. They preferred to release the murderer, Barabbas (But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus - Matt 27:20). Are you going to excuse them also?

Maybe take your personal emotions toward this matter out elsewhere and not on me. Maybe read the Passion scriptures again so as to gain clarity.

Jesus forgave everyone responsible for His dying on the cross. And why? Because forgiveness of the worlds sins was why He was born. Dying on the cross as the final unblemished perfect Lamb of God so as to accomplish that in relation to God's grace.

satan is the prince of the power of the air ... the spirit that works in the children of disobedience. If satan would have known the mystery which was hid in God from the foundation of the world, satan never would have killed the Lord of glory. Back in Genesis 3:15, God told satan that he would bruise the heel of Messiah but that Messiah would bruise the head of satan.

That's an example of Eisegesis.
And is contrary to the Passion scriptures. No one takes Jesus' life from Him. As He said.

satan thought he was doing himself a favor in getting rid of the Lord Jesus Christ (even though Jesus willingly laid His life down and satan did not take it from Him). satan did not realize that the Lord Jesus Christ would rise in victory, ascend into heaven leading captivity captive. satan is filled with wrath because he knows he has only a short time.

Now you've contradicted your prior statement above.
Satan is not as powerful as God, as we know. And God knows , as does Satan, that only God gives and takes life.
Satan can do nothing without God's permission. That is in scripture too.
Reading the linked article, Satan Always Asks Permission, may help your understanding. As would reading the Book of Job chapter 1 and particularly verse 12.

The church (the body of Christ over which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head) now exhibit God's manifold wisdom:

Ephesians 3:

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.


We exhibit God's manifold wisdom through the fellowship of the mystery ... hid in God from the foundation of the world ... in our Lord Jesus Christ we have boldness and access with confidence to the very throne room of God ... the very presence of our Heavenly Father!!! How magnificent is that?

Amen! And all according to God's divine plan.

 

[Whispered]

Who Wrote the Gospels, and How Do We Know for Sure?
Excerpted as it relates to the prior posts concerning the Book of Matthew: "...
All three synoptic gospels record an account of Jesus calling a tax collector to discipleship, but interestingly, while the book of Matthew calls him Matthew, Mark and Luke both identify this man as Levi. It’s worth noting, however, that all four lists of the apostles include Matthew, and none of them include someone named Levi.

Some scholars argue that these are two separate men, but most believe Matthew was known by two names, possibly called Levi because he belonged to the tribe of Levi. While tradition claims the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the tax collector, there’s plenty of evidence for and against this claim. "


Biblical Archeological Society
Gospel of John Commentary: Who Wrote the Gospel of John and How Historical Is It?
"...
We may never know for certain who wrote the Gospel of John, any more than we can know who wrote the books of Matthew, Mark and Luke. We do know that John is a gospel apart, however. Early Matthew, Mark and Luke are so alike in their telling that they are called the Synoptic Gospels, meaning “seen together”—the parallels are clear when they are looked at side by side. Matthew and Luke follow the version of events in Mark, which is thought by scholars to be the earliest and most historically accurate Gospel. John, however, does not include the same incidents or chronology found in the other three Gospels, and the fact that it is so different has spurred a debate over whether John’s Gospel is historical or not, something that has been noted in Gospel of John commentary for hundreds—even thousands—of years.

Several hypotheses have attempted to explain why so much of Jesus’ life not portrayed in the Synoptics is present in John and vice versa. One hypothesis claims that John recorded many of the events that occurred before the arrest of John the Baptist, while the Synoptics all have Jesus’ ministry beginning only after the arrest. Another holds that John was written last, by someone who knew about the other three Gospels, but who wished to write a spiritual gospel instead of an historical one. This would mean that the person who wrote the Gospel of John would not have been a contemporary of Jesus, and therefore would not have been an eyewitness as the author claims. There is also the possibility that the author of John did not know of Mark and hence did not have the same information. "

1. The Gospel Books of the Bible: Authors and Interesting Facts

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Whether one likes it or not, or prefers to levy due to personal reasons a charge of Blasphemy rather than think about that, matters little. What should matter to those who side with that false accusation is that we cannot in good conscience claim to believe we believe the scriptures as written and then choose to ignore that when scripture says all things are as God plans, we deny that because of one man in that plan; Judas.

First of all, please stop your incendiary language.

You accuse me of siding with "false accusation" when you have not proven that Judas did not betray Jesus.

You accuse me of choosing "to ignore scripture" when I have done no such thing.

Just because you disagree with what I believe does not mean I have sided with "false accusation", nor does it mean I "ignore scripture".

So please just state your points without devolving into accusations which do not add to the discussion (other than to inflame).


Secondly, I believe Scripture. I have read the accounts of the last days of the life of the Lord Jesus Christ many, many times.

You claim that if not for Judas, Jesus "would not have been able to die as prophesied so as to take the worlds sins upon himself as the last perfect unblemished lamb" (Post #22).

This is not true. Let's say Judas had not betrayed Jesus. The only effect this would have on the scenario is that God would not have had prophets write concerning the matter. One less prophecy fulfilled would not have changed the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Messiah.

Judas is not the focus of the redemption of mankind … the Lord Jesus Christ is the focus of Scripture. We (mankind and Judas included) are bystanders … mentioned but unimportant to the eternal purpose of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. We are humble beneficiaries of God's great grace, mercy, love.

Judas was part of God's plan. If someone wishes to lash at that statement repeated here again, consider answering the question that remains ignored; how would Jesus have fulfilled God's plan otherwise were it not for Judas being part of it?
The answer never comes and that's because it is irrelevant. What matters is what is; Judas, whom Jesus chose to be one of his Disciples, who was at the last supper with his brother Disciples was whom Jesus knew as the one that would "betray" Him, when in reality, it was the last step to Jesus fulfilling His God anointed destiny as Savior.

If anyone is "lashing out" it is the one who uses inflammatory language because someone dares to question his statements.

I answered your questions "how would Jesus have fulfilled God's plan otherwise were it not for Judas being part of it" above. If there had been no Judas, God simply would not have prophesied concerning Judas. It does not change the fact that Jesus laid down His life … no one took it from Him. How many times did Jesus elude the chief priests, elders, pharisees, sadducees before the appointed time?

And when you state "the answer never comes and that's because it is irrelevant", that is absolutely true.

However, when you claim that what Judas did "was the last step to Jesus fulfilling His God anointed destiny as Savior" I disagree because Jesus would have fulfilled whether there was or was no Judas. As you stated above, Judas is irrelevant in the scheme of things.

And no, I'm not hoping someone will agree with me. I'm stating my point just as the rest of us are.

And that is fine. I am glad we can discuss. I just prefer that you allow others to state their points without your underhanded comments that when/if they don't agree with you they are "ignoring Scripture", that they prefer to "levy due to personal reasons a charge of Blasphemy rather than think about that", that they "side with false accusation", that they "choose to ignore" Scripture, that they "lash out".

I think a study of Job would help you.

Job was not possessed as Judas was (John 13:27). Job was afflicted by satan and attacked, and Job withstood the attack in faith. And God blessed Job for his steadfast faith.

Maybe take your personal emotions toward this matter out elsewhere and not on me. Maybe read the Passion scriptures again so as to gain clarity.

Jesus forgave everyone responsible for His dying on the cross. And why? Because forgiveness of the worlds sins was why He was born. Dying on the cross as the final unblemished perfect Lamb of God so as to accomplish that in relation to God's grace.

No personal emotions in the matter on my part. What I stated is what occurred. The chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude to ask that Barabbas (a murderer) be released and Jesus be crucified.

And yes, Jesus did ask His Father to forgive them. And I believe those who came to faith in Messiah were forgiven. Those who rejected the Lord Jesus Christ will be judged for what they did. The sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ was sufficient to cover all the sins of every person born. However, only those who come to faith in Messiah benefit from the sacrifice. Sad, really, because there is a day coming when they will look upon Him whom they have pierced and realize what they did … then they will mourn.

That's an example of Eisegesis.
And is contrary to the Passion scriptures. No one takes Jesus' life from Him. As He said.

I have provided my understanding of what is written in 1 Cor 2. You disagree and accuse me of eisegesis.

And yes, no one takes Jesus' life from Him. However, satan did not know that. satan thought he was ridding himself of a Pest. satan did not discern what God had planned from before the foundation of the world. And when we read the whole of what occurred after Jesus was taken from the garden of Gethsemane, it appears satan was having a field day … having Him beaten, mocking Him, the sham of a trial He went through. However, once satan realized what has been afforded to us through our redemption in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, he would never have crucified the Lord of glory. And yes, that verse does appear to conflict with Jesus' statement that He lays down His life and no one takes it from Him, but at the time, satan believed he was killing Jesus and thereby ridding himself of his most powerful Foe.

Satan can do nothing without God's permission. That is in scripture too.

I understand every trial we go through is allowed by God.

God tells us to resist the devil and the devil will flee. While we are enduring our trials, God works in us to perfect, establish, strengthen and settle us (1 Peter 5:7-11). God also tells us He will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to handle, but will give us a way to escape (1 Cor 10:12-13). There are many, many promises where God tells us He will help us in those times when satan comes to wreak havoc in our lives. We just need to stand steadfast and unmovable. satan will eventually flee from us.

 

[Whispered]

First of all, please stop your incendiary language.

You accuse me of siding with "false accusation" when you have not proven that Judas did not betray Jesus.

You accuse me of choosing "to ignore scripture" when I have done no such thing.

Just because you disagree with what I believe does not mean I have sided with "false accusation", nor does it mean I "ignore scripture".

So please just state your points without devolving into accusations which do not add to the discussion (other than to inflame).


Secondly, I believe Scripture. I have read the accounts of the last days of the life of the Lord Jesus Christ many, many times.

You claim that if not for Judas, Jesus "would not have been able to die as prophesied so as to take the worlds sins upon himself as the last perfect unblemished lamb" (Post #22).

This is not true. Let's say Judas had not betrayed Jesus. The only effect this would have on the scenario is that God would not have had prophets write concerning the matter. One less prophecy fulfilled would not have changed the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Messiah.

Judas is not the focus of the redemption of mankind … the Lord Jesus Christ is the focus of Scripture. We (mankind and Judas included) are bystanders … mentioned but unimportant to the eternal purpose of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. We are humble beneficiaries of God's great grace, mercy, love.





If anyone is "lashing out" it is the one who uses inflammatory language because someone dares to question his statements.

I answered your questions "how would Jesus have fulfilled God's plan otherwise were it not for Judas being part of it" above. If there had been no Judas, God simply would not have prophesied concerning Judas. It does not change the fact that Jesus laid down His life … no one took it from Him. How many times did Jesus elude the chief priests, elders, pharisees, sadducees before the appointed time?

And when you state "the answer never comes and that's because it is irrelevant", that is absolutely true.

However, when you claim that what Judas did "was the last step to Jesus fulfilling His God anointed destiny as Savior" I disagree because Jesus would have fulfilled whether there was or was no Judas. As you stated above, Judas is irrelevant in the scheme of things.





And that is fine. I am glad we can discuss. I just prefer that you allow others to state their points without your underhanded comments that when/if they don't agree with you they are "ignoring Scripture", that they prefer to "levy due to personal reasons a charge of Blasphemy rather than think about that", that they "side with false accusation", that they "choose to ignore" Scripture, that they "lash out".




Job was not possessed as Judas was (John 13:27). Job was afflicted by satan and attacked, and Job withstood the attack in faith. And God blessed Job for his steadfast faith.





No personal emotions in the matter on my part. What I stated is what occurred. The chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude to ask that Barabbas (a murderer) be released and Jesus be crucified.

And yes, Jesus did ask His Father to forgive them. And I believe those who came to faith in Messiah were forgiven. Those who rejected the Lord Jesus Christ will be judged for what they did. The sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ was sufficient to cover all the sins of every person born. However, only those who come to faith in Messiah benefit from the sacrifice. Sad, really, because there is a day coming when they will look upon Him whom they have pierced and realize what they did … then they will mourn.





I have provided my understanding of what is written in 1 Cor 2. You disagree and accuse me of eisegesis.

And yes, no one takes Jesus' life from Him. However, satan did not know that. satan thought he was ridding himself of a Pest. satan did not discern what God had planned from before the foundation of the world. And when we read the whole of what occurred after Jesus was taken from the garden of Gethsemane, it appears satan was having a field day … having Him beaten, mocking Him, the sham of a trial He went through. However, once satan realized what has been afforded to us through our redemption in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, he would never have crucified the Lord of glory. And yes, that verse does appear to conflict with Jesus' statement that He lays down His life and no one takes it from Him, but at the time, satan believed he was killing Jesus and thereby ridding himself of his most powerful Foe.





I understand every trial we go through is allowed by God.

God tells us to resist the devil and the devil will flee. While we are enduring our trials, God works in us to perfect, establish, strengthen and settle us (1 Peter 5:7-11). God also tells us He will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to handle, but will give us a way to escape (1 Cor 10:12-13). There are many, many promises where God tells us He will help us in those times when satan comes to wreak havoc in our lives. We just need to stand steadfast and unmovable. satan will eventually flee from us.

It isn't Incendiary language to point out someone is wrong in their understanding of scripture. Or that they've committed Eisegesis.
We are told scripture is for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness. If you're wrong, you're wrong. That's not incendiary. I've been wrong plenty of times. We learn from it if we care to.

I'm going to leave you to believe what you will, as I've said in my post: "And no, I'm not hoping someone will agree with me. I'm stating my point just as the rest of us are. "

My observations about Judas are not Blasphemy. This perspective concerning Judas that I share isn't new. Ignoring the links I've shared to support my view is also a choice.
You don't have to agree with that either. As I have said, I'm not hoping someone will agree with me. I'm stating my point just as the rest of us are. "