Joshua’s long day

[Scrobulous]

It seems you have forgotten your definition for darkness is absence of light which also means 'no light'. So essentially what you are saying is that there was darkness before the universe existed.

In order to understand a definition, you have to have a context. Darkness is the absence of light. In the beginning it was dark. But in the context of ‘before the universe existed, what was there?’ It is possible to say it was dark and silent, but this is slightly misleading because there is nothing to be dark or silent in. So we are arguing over language. I hope by now you see what I was trying to say.

 

[Noose]

Certainly energy was created. Darkness and silence, as already explained, are the opposites of light and sound. They are default conditions; what you get in the absence of light and sound and not, as you claim, separate entities in themselves. The early universe was dark and silent, but darkness and silence do not have to be created. Light and sound emerge when the conditions for them exist, so when stars formed and when vibrations occur in a sufficiently dense medium.
Why don’t you study science? It will help you to appreciate God’s creation.

Biocentrism is more appealing because IMO, Physical science has lost it right from its basics and maybe one day you'll see why.

Back to the OP, i said i think God instead of interfering with the physical laws and harmony within the the universe, it is even simpler that God recreated or interfered with their spirit/mind because to me, all reality is within a conscious mind.

Things happening in certain people's mind is also demonstrated at Jesus' baptism; a dove descended and a sound was heard, despite there being a multitude of people, only Jesus and John the baptist arguably saw the dove and heard the sound.

 

[Noose]

In order to understand a definition, you have to have a context. Darkness is the absence of light. In the beginning it was dark. But in the context of ‘before the universe existed, what was there?’ It is possible to say it was dark and silent, but this is slightly misleading because there is nothing to be dark or silent in. So we are arguing over language. I hope by now you see what I was trying to say.

But darkness and silence don't depend on anything so they don't have to be in anything. They don't travel so can't be stopped or blocked and they are immaterial so they can not be contained. They are simply 'nothing' and nothing doesn't require anything, but they are also something because they are part of our day to day reality so they are also real.

1. You go out in the night and say "..it is dark.." and not "..it is nothing.."

2. When a blind man testifies and says "..it is dark..", their testimony will not be acceptable because they lack the measuring instrument (a functioning eye) to make that reality call and it also means that their consciousness (mind) to this reality is disconnected.
It also means that darkness despite being nothing, is measurable because we can testify and allocate levels of darkness- too dark
/slightly dark.

So my point is, nothingness is brought to existence or becomes reality when a conscious mind measures/contrasts/ compares and from there all reality (including physical things) base their existence from.
Without silence, you can never have the reality of sound which is a physical reality but the mind by contrasting/comparing sound to silence, accepts that indeed sound is something therefore it exists.

This is how God created everything; Himself being a conscious mind/spirit- everything proceeded from within Him and all reality is within Him.

 

[posthuman]

Gravity works on objects so its existence actually depends on objects, if the there were no objects in the entire universe, would gravity still exist independently? how?

Einstein found that mass and energy have an equivalence, and gravity and acceleration indistinguishable.

energetic, massless particles ((like photons)) contribute to the curvature of space, which is appears to be effectively equivalent to gravity.

 

[Noose]

Einstein found that mass and energy have an equivalence, and gravity and acceleration indistinguishable.

energetic, massless particles ((like photons)) contribute to the curvature of space, which is appears to be effectively equivalent to gravity.

I wouldn't say i'm an expert in this field, only have most basic knowledge but if i understand you well, you are saying that photons despite being massless (therefore not 'objects') are affected by gravity.

To me, this statement is inherently contradictory because a photon which is light can not accelerate therefore not affected by gravity.

 

[Zmouth]

God is immaterial and all immaterial things were never created and can never be destroyed because they are immaterial.
Saying they are unknown is simply incorrect - we know darkness because we can interact with it and experience it.

God is immaterial? While generally speaking immaterial refers unto something which is of little importance yet in regards to philosophy refers unto the spiritual. But in either context, that are wells without.

You can say you know darkness and interact with it and experience it yet darkness was created in the beginning as written in Genesis 1:2 wherein it is written that the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. While I won't argue that darkness in the scriptures doesn't mean the absence of light, but I would aver to the passage which warns the believer in Luke 11:35
"Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness."

 

[Noose]

God is immaterial? While generally speaking immaterial refers unto something which is of little importance yet in regards to philosophy refers unto the spiritual. But in either context, that are wells without.

You can say you know darkness and interact with it and experience it yet darkness was created in the beginning as written in Genesis 1:2 wherein it is written that the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. While I won't argue that darkness in the scriptures doesn't mean the absence of light, but I would aver to the passage which warns the believer in Luke 11:35
"Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness."

Nope. I don't regard God as being less important. What i meant is that God is not made of any material.

All materials come into existence at certain point in time are therefore said to be created at that moment. Immaterial things can never be created or destroyed because they are immaterial- they are everywhere and can never be isolated. From this respect alone, i regard God as being immaterial. But with respect to spirituality, i regard God as being a conscious mind because spirit is another term for a mind.

Genesis 1 doesn't say God created darkness and most of the other references in the bible where it is said God creates darkness or darkness being mentioned is only symbolic to mean sin and the opposite which is light is symbolic of knowledge of God.

Imagine darkness being created at certain point in time and remember that the condition that must be there in the absence of darkness is always referred to as light and ask yourself, before darkness was created, was the light?

 

[posthuman]

I wouldn't say i'm an expert in this field, only have most basic knowledge but if i understand you well, you are saying that photons despite being massless (therefore not 'objects') are affected by gravity.

To me, this statement is inherently contradictory because a photon which is light can not accelerate therefore not affected by gravity.

acceleration is change in velocity over time. velocity is a speed with a direction. so a change in direction is an acceleration just as a change in speed is, and speed that decreases is a deceleration - a negative acceleration, but an acceleration nonetheless. steering your car through a curve is accelerating it, and so is braking, by the physicists definition.

gravity is equivalent to curvature of space; a photon takes the shortest path but in curved space that's not necessarily a straight line. it bends around a mass because it's following a shortest path in curved space, 'lensing' in an arc.

what i was saying though is that the photon itself also bends spacetime as it moves through it. not because of its mass, but because of its energy - which is equivalent to mass through the E = mc2 relationship Einstein found.

 

[dcontroversal]

You do understand that the subject matter is a sun dial, not a circle?
View attachment 188724
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Yep....and on the side above measuring is 180 degrees....with the OTHER 180 degrees on the opposite side....the math is still the same.....

12 hours × 60 minutes = 720 ÷ 180 degrees = 4 × 10 degrees = 40 minutes

24 hours × 60 minutes = 1440 ÷ 360 degrees = 4 minutes × 10 degrees = 40 minutes

 

[garee]

Genesis 1 doesn't say God created darkness and most of the other references in the bible where it is said God creates darkness or darkness being mentioned is only symbolic to mean sin and the opposite which is light is symbolic of knowledge of God.

Imagine darkness being created at certain point in time and remember that the condition that must be there in the absence of darkness is always referred to as light and ask yourself, before darkness was created, was the light?

God who represented by three is Light, God is Spirit, God is love. God creates darkness and forms light and from that he assigned darkness to represent evil and light to represent that which is good. Therefore using the word good to represent Him not seen . This is after each day he ends it with...…. and God saw it was good.

Even the Son of man Jesus the temporal as that seen when called good teacher refused to be called good and gave glory to God and replied only God is good . Good defines God not seen.

The first three days of light and darkness. Each day he created darkness for 12 hours and for the remaining 12 he formed light . On the forth day he set the two temporal time keepers in the universe the Sun and the Moon.

In the end of time on the last day both the Sun and the moon will have served its temporal purpose .light to represent that which is good, God. And darkness to represent evil . Then the contrast between what is good and what is evil will not apply for there shall be no night there.(no evil)

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.Revelation21:22-25

He gives us a beautiful picture of that last day in the parable found in chapter 12. The chaste virgin bride of Christ clothed with the righteous of the glory of God. The two temporal time keepers under her feet

Revelation 12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

 

[Noose]

acceleration is change in velocity over time. velocity is a speed with a direction. so a change in direction is an acceleration just as a change in speed is, and speed that decreases is a deceleration - a negative acceleration, but an acceleration nonetheless. steering your car through a curve is accelerating it, and so is braking, by the physicists definition.

gravity is equivalent to curvature of space; a photon takes the shortest path but in curved space that's not necessarily a straight line. it bends around a mass because it's following a shortest path in curved space, 'lensing' in an arc.

what i was saying though is that the photon itself also bends spacetime as it moves through it. not because of its mass, but because of its energy - which is equivalent to mass through the E = mc2 relationship Einstein found.

This is a little bit hard for me to grasp but i agree with the first point about change of direction being acceleration though i have a problem with the concept. Direction is always regarding a reference point like on earth we can talk of North because we have a physical north that itself always changes- but because the change is always relative to our position we can still pin point North and talk of direction. The concept of direction in space is weird; does it have anything to do with celestial bodies as reference points but that would mean that space-time is dependent on these bodies.


I have a question about light or photon propagation:

How is it that photons can travel past a 1m thick clear glass and emerge on the other side still travelling in a straight line and in the same speed (no much interference) but can not pass through a a 0.1mm fabric or paper board or metallic sheet?

 

[JaumeJ]

We country folks do enjoy great benefits from folk wisdom, unlike you intellectuals, scholars and just plain over-citified.

Here is wisdom from an Alabama bumper sticker, and I do adhere to it always.

"God said it! I believe it! That settles it!"

I do wish everyone would stop their yammering now.

 

[Noose]

We country folks do enjoy great benefits from folk wisdom, unlike you intellectuals, scholars and just plain over-citified.

Here is wisdom from an Alabama bumper sticker, and I do adhere to it always.

"God said it! I believe it! That settles it!"

I do wish everyone would stop their yammering now.

It is a good thing to have a reason to believe what you believe because with reason comes understanding and knowledge, something that God says is good for His people, without knowledge, His people perish.

Many religions are detrimental because of the 'just believe' notion.
It is written "...if your eye makes you sin, pluck it.." Many will pluck their eyes out for 'just' believing and never understanding.

 

[JaumeJ]

It is a good thing to have a reason to believe what you believe because with reason comes understanding and knowledge, something that God says is good for His people, without knowledge, His people perish.

Many religions are detrimental because of the 'just believe' notion.
It is written "...if your eye makes you sin, pluck it.." Many will pluck their eyes out for 'just' believing and never understanding.

NHoose, this is one of those rare times when you and I are both correct, yes, it is true, God bless you always……..

 

[JaumeJ]

Now I see the like……….thank you..

 

[Noose]

God who represented by three is Light, God is Spirit, God is love. God creates darkness and forms light and from that he assigned darkness to represent evil and light to represent that which is good. Therefore using the word good to represent Him not seen . This is after each day he ends it with...…. and God saw it was good.

Even the Son of man Jesus the temporal as that seen when called good teacher refused to be called good and gave glory to God and replied only God is good . Good defines God not seen.

The first three days of light and darkness. Each day he created darkness for 12 hours and for the remaining 12 he formed light . On the forth day he set the two temporal time keepers in the universe the Sun and the Moon.

In the end of time on the last day both the Sun and the moon will have served its temporal purpose .light to represent that which is good, God. And darkness to represent evil . Then the contrast between what is good and what is evil will not apply for there shall be no night there.(no evil)

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.Revelation21:22-25

He gives us a beautiful picture of that last day in the parable found in chapter 12. The chaste virgin bride of Christ clothed with the righteous of the glory of God. The two temporal time keepers under her feet

Revelation 12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

I don't think God is a literal light, if He was, this statement wouldn't make sense:

Gen 1:2 Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters

 

[Zmouth]

Yep....and on the side above measuring is 180 degrees....with the OTHER 180 degrees on the opposite side....the math is still the same.....

12 hours × 60 minutes = 720 ÷ 180 degrees = 4 × 10 degrees = 40 minutes

24 hours × 60 minutes = 1440 ÷ 360 degrees = 4 minutes × 10 degrees = 40 minutes

Okay, now lets look at the original question again

how many degrees there are in a hour on a sun dial

15

 

[Scrobulous]

But darkness and silence don't depend on anything so they don't have to be in anything. They don't travel so can't be stopped or blocked and they are immaterial so they can not be contained. They are simply 'nothing' and nothing doesn't require anything, but they are also something because they are part of our day to day reality so they are also real.

1. You go out in the night and say "..it is dark.." and not "..it is nothing.."

2. When a blind man testifies and says "..it is dark..", their testimony will not be acceptable because they lack the measuring instrument (a functioning eye) to make that reality call and it also means that their consciousness (mind) to this reality is disconnected.
It also means that darkness despite being nothing, is measurable because we can testify and allocate levels of darkness- too dark
/slightly dark.

So my point is, nothingness is brought to existence or becomes reality when a conscious mind measures/contrasts/ compares and from there all reality (including physical things) base their existence from.
Without silence, you can never have the reality of sound which is a physical reality but the mind by contrasting/comparing sound to silence, accepts that indeed sound is something therefore it exists.

This is how God created everything; Himself being a conscious mind/spirit- everything proceeded from within Him and all reality is within Him.

Darkness and silence do depend on something. Darkness is banished by light, silence by sound. In our universe it is possible that conditions will arise that create light and sound and in this context, darkness and silence have meaning. If there is no universe, there is no possibility of light or sound, so their opposites are equally impossible.
Silence and darkness are only real if you have a universe.
Silence and darkness are not nothing, they are the absence of something very specific, namely light and sound.
Our dispute hinges on whether phenomena such as light and sound exist in their own right or whether they exist only in as much as they can be apprehended by a mind. But even a mind is too vague a concept. A mind has to be attached to the appropriate sensors; ears and eyes. The mind cannot perceive all reality. It is only aware of what it can measure. To limit reality to only that which our limited minds can perceive, is to underestimate God and to assign to ourselves too much.
It is also the case that the eyes and ears themselves define the mind. What I mean is the mind develops to process the information supplied to it, so what you are calling spiritual, that is mind, is in reality very physical.
My argument is that light exists whether there are minds to perceive it or not and this is confirmed by science. The first light appeared 13 billion years ago. The only mind around back then was God’s. If you are going to say that the entire creation only exists in the mind of God, that is possible, but I don’t see that this is the argument you have been making.

 

[Noose]

Darkness and silence do depend on something.

If the universe is to vanish today, i mean everything, darkness and silence will remain- shows that they don't depend on anything.

My argument is that light exists whether there are minds to perceive it or not and this is confirmed by science. The first light appeared 13 billion years ago. The only mind around back then was God’s. If you are going to say that the entire creation only exists in the mind of God, that is possible, but I don’t see that this is the argument you have been making.

Existence of light has been confirmed by minds not science, if everyone was blind would light still exist? would the age of the world be 13b years? even if the answer is yes, how would the blind people accept these as reality?

Q. You say the universe is 13B years and also believe that the earth is 4.5B years. A year, originally, is the period of time a fully formed Earth revolves around the sun once. Do you believe there was 9B years before the earth was fully formed? How is that if the earth is the standard clock for the period of time called a year?

 

[JaumeJ]

God's Light is not like a lightening strike or a light bulb.

God's voice is not a vibration.

God has only spoken to me once while I as awake. It was crystal clear yet there was no sound. At the same time, His Holy Spirit entered into me, it was Light and Life, and all turned to Light yet no one near or farther away from me saw a thing.

How can any compare God's sounds or Lignt to something He is created? As He is not flesh, He is not part of something that is entirely dedicated to the fire next time.