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In language a metaphor is a literary device in which, for rhetorical effect, the writer directly refers to one thing as another thing. So, when Jesus refers to John as a ‘son of thunder’ or Shakespeare says ‘all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players’ we are using a metaphor. No one thinks that there is a person called thunder who had a son called John or that the world is really a rostrum or platform.
When the bible says ‘God is light’ does it mean he is a stream of photons? No! Nor is God a gamma ray. But it is certainly the case that God and the spiritual body possesses a radiance. There are numerous examples of this. So we have a metaphor, but it contains a literal element. God is light, but more than light and not just light.
I have no problem with either.......points being that God in his nature transcends all that we know and we, with limited knowledge and hindered minds, are attempting to understand the eternal self existent one whose very essence is light/spirit and it is clear that he dwells in unapproachable light. HAH
You are on point as usual, DC. We can sense 'light', but it is so transcendent of our flesh nature that it announces to our minds that there are domains we can't sense or grasp. Like you input dude.
I have been very surprised to read about the controversies surrounding Joshua’s long day and the various explanations put forward to explain how God could stop the sun and moon. It is plain that stopping or slowing the Earth’s spin would create havoc, as the inertia of the oceans and atmosphere would rip the landscape to shreds: A thing there is no archeological or historical evidence to support.
So various other ideas, ranging from the text being poetical, to confusion with an eclipse, a miracle of refraction, the sun ceasing to shine rather than ceasing to move, even that the verses were a quote from the book of Jasher and not real scripture, have all been tendered. Really, you have to admire the ingenuity!
Even NASA have made a contribution, suggesting that the effects described In Joshua 10 could be achieved by moving the sun itself, but add, in the condescending manner we have come to expect, that there is no evidence of such a thing! NASA, to be fair, only weighed in on the issue, because some desperate soul peddled a rumour to the effect that NASA had uncovered a missing day when their computers were plotting the location of the planets in the distant past. This is one of the famous ‘urban myths’.
As soon as one admits that there is a God, things like stopping the sun and moon are all in a day’s work. But if you take such a view you miss many lessons!
The miracles of God are always instructive, not gratuitous. The miracles have to be understood in terms of a revelation of the kingdom of God. In other words, when the kingdom comes; that is the presence of God is localised, the situation changes. The sick are healed, because in the kingdom of God no one is sick. The blind see and lepers are cleansed for the same reason. There is abundance, not poverty, so a multiplicity of loaves and fish. The fig tree was cursed because it was not fruitful. Jesus’ tetchy attitude towards a tree shows that he does not compromise with a fallen world. Demons flee and the dead are raised because these are the normal rules of heaven. You don’t get God making fire breathing dragons or flying horses! The miracles are simply a tweak of the existing laws of nature.
Walking on water and the ascension could be seen as a violation of natural law, but both events were, in my opinion, performed for illustrative purposes and applying a force under Jesus is not breaking a physical law.
So where does this leave us with Joshua’s long day?
God could very easily stop the sun and moon by slowing time. Slowing time in the sense that time passes normally on the earth, but outside the earth, time was passing much quicker, at the normal rate in fact. For the scientists among you, this is exactly what happens in relativity. If we are in a spaceship travelling very fast or in a ship that approaches a super massive object, time slows down. This doesn’t mean we all start moving in slo-mo. The result would be exactly what was described in Joshua. The time would pass normally on earth, so Joshua’s army could continue fighting. But the sun and moon, being outside the frame of slowed or stopped time, would appear from the earth, not to move.
Certainly a miracle was involved, namely slowing time, but this is not a violation of nature. Time can slow down as part of natural physics.
I am curious to know why this view about time is never offered as an explanation for Joshua’s long day, when obviously phoney explanations, like an eclipse are? Perhaps lots of people have suggested slowing time and I just haven’t found them?
Dear LaJolla. Am I missing something? I did read what you wrote and it was encouraging. I also read Isa 28 and have to confess that I didn’t see the connection. I realise that time dilation also involves a contraction of length and perhaps that is what you saw, but I wasn’t certain I has it right, so I merely posed the question. I did so fearing I was missing something, certainly not that you were!
In fact, I would appreciate your help. I had a fairly bitter argument with ZMOUTH on this thread and feel guilty that I was somewhat too harsh with him. Perhaps he is a teenager. I didn’t want to hurt him, but he seemed like a bit of a troll.
Would you mind reading through our posts and advise. I feel I have done the wrong thing.
I had a fairly bitter argument with ZMOUTH on this thread and feel guilty that I was somewhat too harsh with him. Perhaps he is a teenager. I didn’t want to hurt him, but he seemed like a bit of a troll.
Would you mind reading through our posts and advise. I feel I have done the wrong thing.
I often debate with individuals like yourself on the ex-Christian.net forum who when presented with an different interpretation of the scriptures than the one they hold as their own simply resort to making personal and derogatory comments since they lack the ability to address the points of the discussion.
But if it will ease you mind, I have already received my white stone so your comments aren't going effect anyone but yourself.
I often debate with individuals like yourself on the ex-Christian.net forum who when presented with an different interpretation of the scriptures than the one they hold as their own simply resort to making personal and derogatory comments since they lack the ability to address the points of the discussion.
But if it will ease you mind, I have already received my white stone so your comments aren't going effect anyone but yourself.
I am very glad to hear that you number yourself among the believers and not the ex-believers. As far as I am concerned this forum is just about exchanging ideas. Whether I am right or wrong about any issue is strictly secondary. So long as you are a christian I am delighted. I fight my corner, but I am driven only by the issue. If I am wrong, I am happy. One usually learns in this way. I bear you no ill will, on the contrary, you seem very perceptive and could be a great asset to the forum and a help to people using it. My concern was that in taking what I call on overly literal view of one verse, you were drawing conclusions harmful to yourself and to others. I hope you can understand my comments in this light. God bless you ZMOUTH.
In language a metaphor is a literary device in which, for rhetorical effect, the writer directly refers to one thing as another thing. So, when Jesus refers to John as a ‘son of thunder’ or Shakespeare says ‘all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players’ we are using a metaphor. No one thinks that there is a person called thunder who had a son called John or that the world is really a rostrum or platform.
When the bible says ‘God is light’ does it mean he is a stream of photons? No! Nor is God a gamma ray. But it is certainly the case that God and the spiritual body possesses a radiance. There are numerous examples of this. So we have a metaphor, but it contains a literal element. God is light, but more than light and not just light.
Matt 20 20Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and knelt down to make a request of Him. 21“What do you want?” He asked. She answered, “Declare that in Your kingdom one of these two sons of mine will sit at Your right hand, and the other at Your left.” 22“You do not know what you are asking,” Jesus replied. “Are you able to drink the cup I am going to drink?”
“We are able,” the brothers answered. 23“You will indeed drink My cup,” Jesus said. “But to sit at My right or left is not Mine to grant. These seats belong to those for whom My Father has prepared them.” 24When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 26It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”
Hey Scrobulour, I see you are sincere and seek meaning. Are you British? Slippery slope is a euphemism here.
Anyway, People have their personal paradigm. Their understanding of the meaning of time, space, and dimensionality... what things can be stretched and bent and what is constant.
The Author of Space and Time knows how to tweak any aspect of His creation perfectly when it suits. He makes the rules and controls our physical domain. The long day of Joshua was the flexing of His perfect control to show His authority. He can and will stop the heavens. We know only four simple dimensions. He controls and orders many many dimensions perfectly.
Spiritual Order keeping things constant allows our bodies to survive. When we forsake our bodies, our flesh and its impulses, we are lifted into higher truth. We are allowed to glimpse the authority that orders the physical plane we have been born into.
There is so much more than we know. Get understanding, if it costs you everything, get understanding.
Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; Luke 8:18
The son stood still in the middle of heaven for a whole day, like it does each day for 12 hours even thought it turns every which way.
So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. Josh 10:13
But of course it has always stood still in the midst of the heaven since the day the heaven and earth was created and God said let there be light. While there is so much more than we know, there is nothing which is not known.
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Prov 4:7
Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding. Prov 23:23
Matt 20 20Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and knelt down to make a request of Him. 21“What do you want?” He asked. She answered, “Declare that in Your kingdom one of these two sons of mine will sit at Your right hand, and the other at Your left.” 22“You do not know what you are asking,” Jesus replied. “Are you able to drink the cup I am going to drink?”
“We are able,” the brothers answered. 23“You will indeed drink My cup,” Jesus said. “But to sit at My right or left is not Mine to grant. These seats belong to those for whom My Father has prepared them.” 24When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 26It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”
However according to the Gospel of Mark (aka John Zebedee) the mother of James and John Zebedee was not present when they requested to be on each side of Jesus in his Kingdom. (See spoiler)
"...James the brother of John with the sword." Acts 12:2
And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying. Acts 12:12
And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,
Mark 10:32
Mark 10:35-40
35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Luke 23:33
Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; Luke 8:18
The son stood still in the middle of heaven for a whole day, like it does each day for 12 hours even thought it turns every which way.
So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. Josh 10:13
But of course it has always stood still in the midst of the heaven since the day the heaven and earth was created and God said let there be light. While there is so much more than we know, there is nothing which is not known.
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Prov 4:7
Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding. Prov 23:23
However according to the Gospel of Mark (aka John Zebedee) the mother of James and John Zebedee was not present when they requested to be on each side of Jesus in his Kingdom. (See spoiler)
"...James the brother of John with the sword." Acts 12:2
And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying. Acts 12:12
And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,
Mark 10:32
Mark 10:35-40
35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Luke 23:33
You have made some very interesting connections here, ZMOUTH.
I hope you are teaching in a church somewhere and not wasting your talents!
But, what do you mean when you say:
‘But of course it has always stood still in the midst of the heaven since the day the heaven and earth was created and God said let there be light. While there is so much more than we know, there is nothing which is not known?’
Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; Luke 8:18
The son stood still in the middle of heaven for a whole day, like it does each day for 12 hours even thought it turns every which way.
So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. Josh 10:13
But of course it has always stood still in the midst of the heaven since the day the heaven and earth was created and God said let there be light. While there is so much more than we know, there is nothing which is not known.
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Prov 4:7
Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding. Prov 23:23
However according to the Gospel of Mark (aka John Zebedee) the mother of James and John Zebedee was not present when they requested to be on each side of Jesus in his Kingdom. (See spoiler)
"...James the brother of John with the sword." Acts 12:2
And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying. Acts 12:12
And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,
Mark 10:32
Mark 10:35-40
35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Luke 23:33
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