Is the Gospel a job offer? Or good news aimed at those who believe?

[Whispered]

But I follow his example.

No, you do not. Otherwise you would not be here debating.
Remember what you said? "How much did Jesus or the Apostles debate? They kicked dust instead. "

And lastly, the Book of Matthew 21 shows Jesus did debate. And yet, you still do not follow His example. "They kicked dust instead." No, you poor soul, they did far more than that. The Apostles , all but John , were martyred for their faith and bringing the Gospel to a world that did not want to hear it. After Jesus died to take the sins of the world upon Himself, so that all would be saved if they only believed.

 

[Whispered]

How does it contradict my doctrine? Either you believe those passages of scripture promote salvation by works or else you do not. I believe they do not. Revelation 22:12 says my reward is with me according to their work, which fits with 1 Corinthians 3:13-15. You claim you don’t believe those verses teach salvation by works, yet you keep telling me I’m wrong. So what’s the problem? You can’t have it both ways.

Your doctrine?

 

[mailmandan]

Your doctrine?

See posts #3, #4, #148 and #150.

 

[Dave-L]

No, you do not. Otherwise you would not be here debating.
Remember what you said? "How much did Jesus or the Apostles debate? They kicked dust instead. "

And lastly, the Book of Matthew 21 shows Jesus did debate. And yet, you still do not follow His example. "They kicked dust instead." No, you poor soul, they did far more than that. The Apostles , all but John , were martyred for their faith and bringing the Gospel to a world that did not want to hear it. After Jesus died to take the sins of the world upon Himself, so that all would be saved if they only believed.

We preach the word to the whole world in these forums.

 

[Noose]

Q. Are one year old saved? God forbid but if a one year old child dies, do they go heaven saved or are they condemned to hell? If they make it to heaven, what works or what belief will they need to do or believe in?

Now, if you answer these questions, you'll find out what salvation is. hopefully.

@mailmandan

I see, can't answer, wont answer. How can a doctrine on salvation fail to answer a question about salvation, if it is true?!

 

[mailmandan]

@mailmandan

I see, can't answer, wont answer. How can a doctrine on salvation fail to answer a question about salvation, if it is true?!

What does your question have to do with the passages of scripture we have been discussing? A one year old is not old enough to repent and believe the gospel or to be accountable for failing to believe the gospel. The question, "what happens to infants when they die," often gets asked by certain people. In 2 Samuel 12, we saw that David and Bathsheba had a child together, yet David was informed by the prophet Nathan that the child would die. David began to fast and pray, asking the Lord to not carry out His judgment, but the child did die. In 2 Samuel 12:23, David said: Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. David’s words reflect a clear understanding that the child would not return to him, but David would be with his child one day in heaven.

Now in regards to what happens to all infants when they die, does the Bible specifically tell us and what does that question have to do with what we have been discussing in our previous posts? Sounds like a deflection to me.

 

[Noose]

What does your question have to do with the passages of scripture we have been discussing? A one year old is not old enough to repent and believe the gospel or to be accountable for failing to believe the gospel. The question, "what happens to infants when they die," often gets asked by certain people. In 2 Samuel 12, we saw that David and Bathsheba had a child together, yet David was informed by the prophet Nathan that the child would die. David began to fast and pray, asking the Lord to not carry out His judgment, but the child did die. In 2 Samuel 12:23, David said: Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. David’s words reflect a clear understanding that the child would not return to him, but David would be with his child one day in heaven.

Now in regards to what happens to all infants when they die, does the Bible specifically tell us and what does that question have to do with what we have been discussing in our previous posts? Sounds like a deflection to me.

Not a deflection.
It is a question about salvation (of children), so your theory/doctrine on salvation should be able to answer this simple question. How is it a deflection?

Jesus said the kingdom of God is like such (children) and He also told grown men unless they changed and become like children, they won't inherit the kingdom.

And my question is; according to your doctrine, what do children have to do to inherit the kingdom of God (be saved)?

 

[mailmandan]

Not a deflection.
It is a question about salvation (of children), so your theory/doctrine on salvation should be able to answer this simple question. How is it a deflection?

Jesus said the kingdom of God is like such (children) and He also told grown men unless they changed and become like children, they won't inherit the kingdom.

And my question is; according to your doctrine, what do children have to do to inherit the kingdom of God (be saved)?

My theory/doctrine on salvation? So all of those passages of scripture that I quoted in my previous posts on salvation are meaningless and somehow your theory on what Jesus meant in Matthew 18:3 negates those passages of scripture?

In Matthew 18:3, this is how Jesus characterized conversion. It pictures faith as the helpless, trusting, dependence of those who have no resources of their own or achievements to commend themselves with. The most trusting people in the world are little children who have not acquired the obstructions to faith that typically come with advanced education and philosophies of men. Christ calls us to have the same kind of trust that little children naturally have. People must become as little children in humbly recognizing their helplessness in attaining the kingdom in their own strength and merit. We are 100% dependent on Jesus Christ to save us and we must trust exclusively in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

 

[Noose]

My theory/doctrine on salvation? So all of those passages of scripture that I quoted in my previous posts on salvation are meaningless and somehow your theory on what Jesus meant in Matthew 18:3 negates those passages of scripture?

In Matthew 18:3, this is how Jesus characterized conversion. It pictures faith as the helpless, trusting, dependence of those who have no resources of their own or achievements to commend themselves with. The most trusting people in the world are little children who have not acquired the obstructions to faith that typically come with advanced education and philosophies of men. Christ calls us to have the same kind of trust that little children naturally have. People must become as little children in humbly recognizing their helplessness in attaining the kingdom in their own strength and merit. We are 100% dependent on Jesus Christ to save us and we must trust exclusively in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

The passages are not useless but your explanation of those passages to support your doctrine.

So based on what Jesus said, are children saved or not?
Does your doctrine on salvation cover children also or is it only from certain age? if so, what age?

 

[mailmandan]

The passages are not useless but your explanation of those passages to support your doctrine.

So based on what Jesus said, are children saved or not?

How is my explanation of those passages useless and what is your main point about children being saved? How do you believe little children are saved and how do you believe adults are saved?

 

[Noose]

How is my explanation of those passages useless and what is your main point about children being saved? How do you believe little children are saved and how do you believe adults are saved?

Obviously, your explanation for salvation does not cover children so how can it be right.
There's only one way to salvation for all mankind, whether children or adults; Christ's death reconciled all men to God. So men can only walk out of God's love based on their works. Those that do good will abide in Christ and those that don't abide in Christ's

 

[mailmandan]

Obviously, your explanation for salvation does not cover children so how can it be right. There's only one way to salvation for all mankind, whether children or adults; Christ's death reconciled all men to God. So men can only walk out of God's love based on their works. Those that do good will abide in Christ and those that don't abide in Christ's

How would my explanation not cover little children/infants if they are not mature enough to repent and believe the gospel? How could they be held accountable for failing to do so? Did I say that little children are condemned because of that? NO.

All mankind was not "automatically saved" (believers and unbelievers alike) because of Christ's death. So your confusion about little children takes us back to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 5:18 in post #3,233 which I refuted in post #3,238 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...tion-can-be-lost.185786/page-162#post-4020784

 

[Noose]

How would my explanation not cover little children/infants if they are not mature enough to repent and believe the gospel? How could they be held accountable for failing to do so? Did I say that little children are condemned because of that? NO.

All mankind was not "automatically saved" (believers and unbelievers alike) because of Christ's death. So your confusion about little children takes us back to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 5:18 in post #3,233 which I refuted in post #3,238 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...tion-can-be-lost.185786/page-162#post-4020784

Ok. So children are born in sin, they don'y repent because they are not mature enough and can not repent but still they are saved?! Is this another way of getting saved other than the one you preach? Because the one you preach is very different from this yet Jesus tells grown men unless they change and become like little children, they won't inherit the kingdom of God (saved).

Again, i want to get you clearly, are children saved or not?

 

[mailmandan]

Ok. So children are born in sin, they don'y repent because they are not mature enough and can not repent but still they are saved?! Is this another way of getting saved other than the one you preach? Because the one you preach is very different from this yet Jesus tells grown men unless they change and become like little children, they won't inherit the kingdom of God (saved).

Again, i want to get you clearly, are children saved or not?

I already explained what Jesus meant in regards to becoming like little children in relation to conversion. What is your interpretation of Matthew 18:3? What do YOU believe that Jesus meant by becoming like little children in regards to conversion and inheriting the kingdom of God? Why do you continuously ask me if children are saved? If they are unable to repent and believe the gospel due to their immature state, where does that leave them? Where did that leave David's infant? Saved or not saved, as I already explained in post #166.

 

[Noose]

I already explained what Jesus meant in regards to becoming like little children in relation to conversion. What is your interpretation of Matthew 18:3? What do YOU believe that Jesus meant by becoming like little children in regards to conversion and inheriting the kingdom of God? Why do you continuously ask me if children are saved? If they are unable to repent and believe the gospel due to their immature state, where does that leave them? Where did that leave David's infant? Saved or not saved, as I already explained in post #166.

What Jesus said means that children are saved not based on what they do but what He (Christ) did. Didn't Christ's death reconcile everything back to God? so when they say everything, it includes children and adults together.

Saying one is unable to repent doesn't explain salvation at all because there's no scripture that supports this idea. There are other groups that are unable to repent, including mentally ill and those who have never heard of Christ in very remote areas.
But this is the truth, there's only one way a man (whether child or adult or those in remote areas) can be saved. We don't have two ways, one for those that are unable to repent and another for those that can repent- do you have any scriptural support for these two methods of salvation?

I keep asking because you are very afraid to give a direct answer as if unsure of what you are saying.

 

[mailmandan]

Ok. So children are born in sin, they don'y repent because they are not mature enough and can not repent but still they are saved?! Is this another way of getting saved other than the one you preach? Because the one you preach is very different from this yet Jesus tells grown men unless they change and become like little children, they won't inherit the kingdom of God (saved).

You are making this out to be much more complicated than it really is and all because of your confusion over Romans 5:18. Your "everyone is automatically saved" because of the death of Christ (believers and unbelievers alike) is very different from the plan of salvation that we find throughout scripture. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).

 

[Noose]

You are making this out to be much more complicated than it really is and all because of your confusion over Romans 5:18. Your "everyone is automatically saved" because of the death of Christ (believers and unbelievers alike) is very different from the plan of salvation that we find throughout scripture. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).

This plan for salvation (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9), is it only for adults? Can you explain specifically how a child is saved.
Saying they are unable to repent is not an explanation for the salvation of children and other special groups. What do they do to have their sins washed.

 

[mailmandan]

What Jesus said means that children are saved not based on what they do but what He (Christ) did.

Are adults saved based on what Jesus did (death, burial and resurrection) or on what they do? (works)

Didn't Christ's death reconcile everything back to God? so when they say everything, it includes children and adults together.

So everyone (including atheists, devil worshippers, people in false religions and cults etc..) are all AUTOMATICALLY reconciled to God? NO. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Saying one is unable to repent doesn't explain salvation at all because there's no scripture that supports this idea.

Show me in scripture where infants repent and believe the gospel. I'll be waiting.

There are other groups that are unable to repent, including mentally ill and those who have never heard of Christ in very remote areas.

So at least you admit there are those who are incapable of repenting. Now we are finally getting somewhere.

But this is the truth, there's only one way a man (whether child or adult or those in remote areas) can be saved. We don't have two ways, one for those that are unable to repent and another for those that can repent- do you have any scriptural support for these two methods of salvation?

So according to you, everyone who is incapable of repenting due to immaturity, retardation or lack of information will perish? Or instead, twist Romans 5:18 and make it teach everyone is automatically saved regardless.

I keep asking because you are very afraid to give a direct answer as if unsure of what you are saying.

I'm not afraid, but I'm not going to say that all children will automatically be saved regardless, when the Bible does not specifically spell that out. Although the Bible does say that David will go to his child when he dies (2 Samuel 12:23).

 

[mailmandan]

This plan for salvation (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9), is it only for adults? Can you explain specifically how a child is saved. Saying they are unable to repent is not an explanation for the salvation of children and other special groups. What do they do to have their sins washed.

If someone is incapable of repenting and believing the gospel, then what other option do they have? I don't have an explanation other than what I told you because the Bible is virtually silent on the issue and your explanation about everyone automatically being saved doesn't hold water. Now can we go back to discussing how those of us who are NOT infants are saved? No more deflections. You and I are adults and will have no excuse if we refuse to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[Noose]

If someone is incapable of repenting and believing the gospel, then what other option do they have? I don't have an explanation other than what I told you because the Bible is virtually silent on the issue and your explanation about everyone automatically being saved doesn't hold water. Now can we go back to discussing how those of us who are NOT infants are saved? No more deflections. You and I are adults and will have no excuse if we refuse to repent and believe the gospel.

I didn't know that the scriptures only talk about salvation for adults who are capable of repenting. To me, it is very simple; the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
Your doctrine on salvation doesn't answer questions on salvation, so it is easy to dismiss it. On one hand you say repentance and believing the gospel is the only way a person can be saved, yet you still believe there are people (children and other special groups) who don't believe the gospel and don't repent but are still saved. this is a contradiction.