Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

[Absolutely]

So you are accusing the Church fathers' post-tribulation, pre-millenium return of Christ, as false teaching - you know there can only by one true teaching?

Btw eschatology is not a pillar of truth dynamic.

We can disagree and both make heaven

 

[luigi]

He who is restraining lawlessness in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 as well as today is the Lord. As such, it is then when the Lord who is restraining lawlessness is taken out of the way of people, that the way of lawlessness under the beast and the antichrist will run rampant. As in the days of lot in Sodom, and as in the days of Noah, remember?

 

[Scribe]

He who is restraining lawlessness in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 as well as today is the Lord. As such, it is then when the Lord who is restraining lawlessness is taken out of the way of people, that the way of lawlessness under the beast and the antichrist will run rampant. As in the days of lot in Sodom, and as in the days of Noah, remember?

You are Probably correct in this interpretation, even if Paul was referring to something cryptic from Daniel, like Michael standing up, it still results in God pulling the strings

 

[BenjaminN]

He who is restraining lawlessness in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 as well as today is the Lord. As such, it is then when the Lord who is restraining lawlessness is taken out of the way of people, that the way of lawlessness under the beast and the antichrist will run rampant. As in the days of lot in Sodom, and as in the days of Noah, remember?

God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is almighty and allows trials and tribulations of his children (take Job, Christ Yeshua and his apostles' martyr deaths, etc.) and cannot be taken out of the way, by no power. During the great tribulation, by his power, his children do not take the mark of the beast, and persevere. His church however can lose position of power and influence on earth. Like the church had very little power of influence when it started out, and was persecuted by world powers, so will the end come after the great apostacy into lawlessness of 2 Thessalonians.

 

[BenjaminN]

God's children is commanded to flee not wait to be raptured, at the start of the tribulation, and pray that it not be in winter or on the Sabbath. The rapture is after the great tribulation and antichrist rule is concluded at the return of Christ Yeshua.

Matthew 24 (NKJV)

The Great Tribulation

15“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The Coming of the Son of Man

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 38For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

 

[BenjaminN]

As my post indicated:

--v.20:4a = still-living saints (who come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the [7] trib years) who survive the trib yrs... this is what Daniel 7:22[27] is speaking of ("22 and judgment was given to the saints of the most High"--see again the wording in Rev20:4a); these enter the MK age in their mortal bodies;

[separated by the phrase "AND I saw..."]

--v.20:4b = those saints (also who come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the [7] trib yrs) who DIE [/are martyred] in the trib years, and are "resurrected" [means: "to stand again [on the earth]"] also at that same time-slot; these enter the MK age in "resurrected" bodies (which are said to be "like the angels"... who do not marry nor bear children... [i.e. Scripture says "in the resurrection they..." Matt22:30])



NEITHER of these ^ (two parts/groups, in this verse) are speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (who will have been "changed" and "caught up" WELL-BEFORE this point in time, way back PRIOR TO the FIRST SEAL being opened, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Rev5:6, Isa3:13, [Lam2:3-4 paralleling the wording in 2Th2:7b-8a...], etc).
We see the "24 elders" saying (in 5:9) "...and hast redeemed US to God... out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation..." and this is AFTER a "searching judgment" has taken place as indicated by the "WAS FOUND" word in 5:4 (as is also used in Paul's arrest/trials being brought before their [human / earthly] BEMA... in the latter parts of Acts; IOW, I believe the "BEMA of Christ" (which is slated only for "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") has taken place by this point (in Rev5)... and they are wearing "golden crowns/stephanous" [recall Paul's words about "IN THAT DAY" in 2Tim4:8! ] and are sitting on "thrones"... etc etc...

Let us separate Revelation 20:4, as indicated by yourself at "and I saw", and be left with those of the eternal life "first resurrection", who died before the great tribulation for their testimony in Christ Yeshua (apostles, church martyrs, etc), and those children of God who died due to their testimony in Christ Yeshua during the great tribulation, by not taking the mark of the beast:


Revelation 20 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,

1 Thessalonians 4 (KJV)

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[BenjaminN]

Revelation 13 (NKJV)

7It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 7 (NKJV)

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation

9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”14And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[BenjaminN]

Btw eschatology is not a pillar of truth dynamic.

We can disagree and both make heaven

Matthew 7 (NKJV)

15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

 

[BenjaminN]

There is a "church father book" called "against heresy "

I wonder why such a book was necessary?

Recon there were some blatant heresies among those you deify????

Scripture is from our Deity we worship, and scripture alone.

Escapism/Gnosticism is as old as the church itself.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_Heresies_(Irenaeus)

Against Heresies, or On the Detection and Overthrow of the So-Called Gnosis

In it, Irenaeus identifies and describes several schools of Gnosticism, as well as other schools of Christian thought, and contrasts their beliefs with his conception of orthodox Christianity.[6]

Irenaeus argued that his conception of orthodox Christianity was passed down to him from the apostles who knew Jesus personally, while the Gnostics and Marcionites were distorting this apostolic tradition.[8]

While the Gnostics offered salvation through secret knowledge available only to a few, Irenaeus contended that the true doctrines of the Christian faith are the same taught by bishops in different areas.[16]

While many of the Gnostics viewed the material world as flawed and from which believers sought to escape...


Revelation 21 (NKJV)

8But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

[BenjaminN]

""The "first resurrection" (of those that died in Christ for their testimony of believing in Christ) happens after the great tribulation, at the return of Christ Yeshua, with the rapture.""

As I have demonstrated,that is pure conjecture.
Reconcile rev 14 with 1 thes 4 "dead precede the living"
Your theory places the dead AFTER the living.

Game
Set
Match

The dead in Christ Yeshua rise first, and be raptured with us, to meet Christ Yeshua in the air, at his next and final coming, after the great tribulation: those of the last generation, who did not take the mark of the beast, and persevere, "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep"


Matthew 24 (NKJV)

22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.


Revelation 20 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,

1 Thessalonians 4 (KJV)

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture allowing the antichrist to, without resistance of any significant power, ascend to his place to declare himself the god in the temple?

Why do you call it a false teaching when it is clearly stated in the Bible? Thus you present yourself as a false teacher.

 

[Nehemiah6]

the teaching of the Pretrib Rapture is not false teaching.

Correct. It is quite instructive to see that the false teachers are coming out the woodwork like cockroaches these day, and overwhelming Christian forums with their nonsense.

 

[BenjaminN]

Why do you call it a false teaching when it is clearly stated in the Bible? Thus you present yourself as a false teacher.

Please quote the supposed pre-tribulation rapture scripture, ie. scripture stating the rapture is before the tribulation. As the return of Christ Yeshua is shown to be post-tribulation, pre-millenium, as per the scripture quoted extensively.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture allowing the antichrist to, without resistance of any significant power, ascend to his place to declare himself the god in the temple?

Not a false teaching! It's an error on your part for not understanding the principle that Christ already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. When you understand this, then you know that God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in His Son and therefore are not appointed to suffer His coming wrath.

Is this preached escapism lulling God's people to passivity and inaction, about the reality of the beast, so that the beast can achieve his place, uncontested by God's people, so they as God's people, may be removed by deception, from all power of resistance, restricting the beast's coming

The only reason that you are using the word 'escapism' is to put it and those who believe in it into a negative light, to discredit it. Did Noah escape the flood that came upon the earth? Did Lot and his daughters escape God's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? Yes, God provides escape for His people. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. Since the wrath of God is going to come upon the entire world, then He will fulfill His promise of coming back to get us to take us back to those places that He prepared for us in His Father's house, so that where He is, we may be also. - John 14:1-3

2 Thess 2:7 - Please pray about this message of deception, being spread most certainly unknowingly, and being used by wanting the best for God's children. This is inconveniently false doctrine, contrary to God's scriptured will. The first resurrected dead, being raptured with those believers alive, comes out of the great tribulation, and are those that died for their testimony in Christ.

Paul called the gathering of the church the blessed hope. After Paul taught about the living being changed and caught up, he said for us to comfort each other with those words. Consequently, if the church is to go through God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, there would be no reason to comfort each other and it would not be a blessed hope, because believers would be going though the same wrath as the unbelievers. Your error, in part, comes from not understanding the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Rev 20:5 - The ----first resurrection (happening AFTER the great tribulation)---- is of those who died during the great tribulation, by the hand of the beast:


Revelation 20 (ESV)

4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

This resurrection which takes place after Christ returns to the earth, is the resurrection of the great tribulation saints, who also take part in the first resurrection, which has stages or phases to it. Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection. The church will be next to take part in the first resurrection. During the tribulation period, the two witnesses will be killed and resurrected. Then then will be the resurrection of the great tribulation saints. First resurrection does not mean only resurrection.

1Thess 4:16-17 - During the rapture, at the return of Christ, the first resurrection takes place, of those who died for their testimony of Christ:

1 Thessalonians 4 (ESV)

16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is not the same resurrection as Revelation 20:4-6. The former is the resurrection and catching away of the church and the latter a resurrection only of the great tribulation saints.

Read Matthew 24, for the consecutive ordered scripture, describing what comes before and after Christ's second coming - as per the Church fathers' explained Post-Tribulation, Pre-Millenium return of Christ, classical Millenialism.

Just like so many people, you fail to recognize that the gathering of the church as being a different event from The Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Matthew 24:30-31 is the event of the Lord returning to the earth to end the age and has nothing to do with the gathering of the church.

John 16 (ESV)

33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."

We would certainly have no peace of we were to go through the same wrath of God as the wicked.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Please quote the supposed pre-tribulation rapture scripture, ie. scripture stating the rapture is before the tribulation. As the return of Christ Yeshua is shown to be post-tribulation, pre-millenium, as per the scripture quoted extensively.

It's a simple matter of understanding that because the Lord took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, that God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer.

===================================================================
"While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
===================================================================

Just before the church is gathered and God's wrath begins, the wicked will be saying "peach and security." The mentioned will be like labor pains on a pregnant woman. Labor pains start out far apart and get closer and more intense leading up to the birth. This is how God's wrath will progress during the tribulation, the seals, trumpets and bowls getting closer together and more intense.

This time of wrath is likened to the night or darkness. In contrast, believers do not belong to the night or the darkness. Where it states regarding the wicked that they will not escape, the opposite is true for believers by the words "But you , brothers. are not in darkness so that this day should over take you," i.e. those in Christ will escape because we do not belong to the darkness, i.e. we do not belong to the time of God's wrath. However, if you want a scripture that states that believers will not be here during that time of wrath, here it is:

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

The 'hour of trial' is synonymous with 'the Day of the Lord,' i.e. the time of God's wrath. And as the scripture states, it will come upon the whole inhabited world.

And here is another one for you:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

'That Day" is referring to the time of God's wrath. For those who do not believe and who are not ready and watching, that time period of God's wrath will close on them like a trap and they will not escape. The way in which we will escape, is when the Lord comes to gather His church from the earth.

 

[luigi]

You are Probably correct in this interpretation, even if Paul was referring to something cryptic from Daniel, like Michael standing up, it still results in God pulling the strings

Here's another set of scriptures describing those who will put away the Lord in favor for the beast, that will create days as those in Noah, and as days of Lot in Sodom.

Psalm 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

 

[luigi]

God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is almighty and allows trials and tribulations of his children (take Job, Christ Yeshua and his apostles' martyr deaths, etc.) and cannot be taken out of the way, by no power. During the great tribulation, by his power, his children do not take the mark of the beast, and persevere. His church however can lose position of power and influence on earth. Like the church had very little power of influence when it started out, and was persecuted by world powers, so will the end come after the great apostacy into lawlessness of 2 Thessalonians.

I agree with you that the true in Christ cannot be taken out of the way from their faith. But there are those whose faith is just made; whose claims in faith are superficial. As such, to differentiate from those who truly believe in Christ and what Christ stands for, the Almighty will shake the earth and heaven as well, so that those things made may be shaken out, thereby leaving the truly faithful in Christ who cannot be shaken out (Hebrews 12:26-27).
Know, however, that those things made today believe themselves true believers, and when the worst of times is upon the whole world, and the faith of all who claim faith in Christ is tested by the Lord's shaking of the earth, and those things made then fall away; there will then be great anger from the fallen away phonies against the truly faithful who will not fall away as is described in the Olivet discourse.

 

[luigi]

Here's another set of scriptures describing those who will put away the Lord in favor for the beast, that will create days as those in Noah, and as days of Lot in Sodom.

Psalm 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Psalm 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[AlmondJoy]

Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation

Do you not believe in the imminent return of christ?

 

[Jackson123]

Not a false teaching! It's an error on your part for not understanding the principle that Christ already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. When you understand this, then you know that God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in His Son and therefore are not appointed to suffer His coming wrath

7 years Great tribulation is not God wrath. It is devil wrath to people that not take the mark of the beast.

Who make a law that whosoever not take the mark Will be kill or can't buy or sale?
Is that God?

Do God punish one that not take the mark?

Devil wrath or angry to people that not take the mark.

So 7 years tribulation is not God wrath but devil wrath